Air refuel tutorial

[Snoopy]

I'm having the same problem. I'm keeping the boom colours in the green section but after no more than 3 seconds I get a disconnect.

 

EDIT: Picture for you. Any idea what I'm doing wrong? The aircraft was stable in that position as well.

 

 

The disconnect bug was fixed in patch 0.9. When I first started trying AR I to felt I was within the boom limits but was getting disconnected but once I watched a few tracks and read the -1 concerning KC-135 boom travel limits I realized it was me. May not be the same for you but the boom being green doestn' ensure that you aren't to far up, down, right, or left.

[Wolf Rider]

The screenshot above looks pretty good, obviously good left/right. Is he too high? Too low?

 

too high...

the top crossbar of the HUD is above the red section of the boom?

[Sn8ke]

I have been practicing without success with curves for pitch and roll of first 15 then 20. I would make connects that would last only a second or two. It just didn't feel right, and then fact that the curves were present made it more difficult I believe. Why? less responsive control I think will induce over-corrections and cause the pilot to add too much anticipation in control movements. I just tried with all curves at zero, and connected with a near empty tank, and filled it with one connection. FYI, I have the TM Warthog HOTAS. Also, I believe the key is how to manipulate the throttle with small quick adjustments. I'm always in a close formation flight but always slowing and increasing speed.

[DAZnBLAST]

1),2) agree

3) Not really, negligible at best, has to be fluid else damage to recipticle/boom/aircraft could occur.

4) agree

 

Yes. The reasons are numerous but mainly down to weather effects not simulated well in DCS. Probe & drogue is harder still.

 

5) get it wrong in RL and there's no restarting the mission!

[NhiTrac]

How long do you guys normally take from say near empty to full tank?

 

I've been able to get a full tank about 4 times now since I started practicing a few days ago however it involves many disconnects and also take about 15 - 20 minutes which I think is far far too long.

 

Also interesting to see that probes in RL AAR are usually never extended. You guys do the same?

[mec287]

How long do you guys normally take from say near empty to full tank?

 

I've been able to get a full tank about 4 times now since I started practicing a few days ago however it involves many disconnects and also take about 15 - 20 minutes which I think is far far too long.

 

Also interesting to see that probes in RL AAR are usually never extended. You guys do the same?

 

 

If you do it with no disconnects it will take about 4-5 minutes from the time of contact. 15 minutes isn't bad. Consider that 1000 lbs of fuel will keep you flying at air-air refueling throttle for about 60 minutes. And it only takes a few seconds to get 1000lbs.

 

On an 8 or 9 hour long mission, the 30 minutes it takes to refuel is nothing.

[Korn]

It takes less than 2 minutes from ~2000lbs (*2) to full.

[NhiTrac]

*Fist pump*

 

Did my first full AAR without any disconnects just now!!!

 

Was so happy I put my sidewinder up the tanker's ass!

[Yurgon]

*Fist pump*

 

Did my first full AAR without any disconnects just now!!!

 

Was so happy I put my sidewinder up the tanker's ass!

 

Congratz! And yeah, I think most of us here have killed a tanker or two, though usually out of frustration rather than out of enjoyment. :D

[Backy 51]

Remember ... NKAWTK! Nobody!

[=Mac=]

First try AAR. No go. Zooming all over the sky near the boom. Reset curve on Y axis (TM Warthog HOTAS) to 50. Next attempt connected for a second or two then fell off the boom. Then tried to reconnect and the boom operator apparently left town: good approach but no clear pre-contact. Requested rejoin but, again, nobody home. The boom was down.

 

Tried aborting rejoin. Backed off a mile and re-approached, requested rejoin. Nothing.

 

I sure am puzzled. I just have to be missing something on the reconnect. What... I must say please or something?:helpsmilie:

[Derbysieger]

Ok. First of all, 50 on the curve is waaaay to much. 30 should give you a nice startingpoint. I started with 25 and I'm now down to 10. After a longer break I usually change it back to 15-20 until I'm comfortable with more direct input again.

Also: DO NOT CHASE THE BOOM! Write that down. It's important. Concentrate on the tanker and just keep the boom in your peripheral vision once you made contact. Always look at the tanker. It's formation flying and you're in formation with the tanker. The boom moves and if you try to adjust your position in relation to the boom and not the tanker you can usually start again

 

Concerning your other problem I have no Idea. I never experienced that. I had a buddy of mine abort rejoin last night and I was able to connect without problem. If everything else fails restart the mission ;)

[Berndt Mangler]

Derbysieger is right, I started out that way and perhaps we should, but I've sense move off these kinds of numbers as you'll find the latency gets in the way, there is a sweet spot.

 

I just wrote this up a bit ago, perhaps it will help?

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=121074

[PFunk1606688187]

In my opinion any stick curve is ultimately a losing gambit. I used to be a vehement supporter of a very carefully calibrated, barely noticeable stick curve, something below 15 on either axis.

 

I then took a leap, set everything to 0, and realized what a waste of time it was trying to learn to fly any other way.

 

With 0 curve every input is faster. Curve may create (the impression of) a smoother response, but it causes your stick to spend more time in the middle part of your range meaning that there is an actual input lag compared to a 0 curve. It is imperceptible when you're used to it, but if you were to race someone at say 200 feet above the deck through a trench where you didn't know the path you'd find the guy with 0 curve out turning you and reacting faster. With a 50 curve I can't imagine someone not crashing into a cliff face.

 

Another thing that stick curve does is that by its very nature it causes the full range of input to create a non linear response, meaning that at some point in the range you will find your input accelerating. It will mean that gentle inputs at this point of deflection on the real stick will lead to sudden radical ones in the sim. The difference between pulling 3 Gs or 4 Gs is slight, but stick curve means that you will need to mind yourself very carefully when doing anything radical. In my opinion this is a far more critical phase of flight than AAR and sacrificing precision and control in combat so you can tank more easily is not a good trade at all, and by the looks of things even severe stick curve isn't making it any easier for some, so this means that its not the stick's sensitivity that's screwing you up, its your own lack of skill. That means practice, and you might as well not practice a configuration that creates downsides and bad habits that are just as hard to unlearn down the road.

[Fakum]

P*Funk, which HOTAS are you using pleae? Thanks

[Derbysieger]

In my opinion any stick curve is ultimately a losing gambit. I used to be a vehement supporter of a very carefully calibrated, barely noticeable stick curve, something below 15 on either axis.

 

I then took a leap, set everything to 0, and realized what a waste of time it was trying to learn to fly any other way.

 

With 0 curve every input is faster. Curve may create (the impression of) a smoother response, but it causes your stick to spend more time in the middle part of your range meaning that there is an actual input lag compared to a 0 curve. It is imperceptible when you're used to it, but if you were to race someone at say 200 feet above the deck through a trench where you didn't know the path you'd find the guy with 0 curve out turning you and reacting faster. With a 50 curve I can't imagine someone not crashing into a cliff face.

 

Another thing that stick curve does is that by its very nature it causes the full range of input to create a non linear response, meaning that at some point in the range you will find your input accelerating. It will mean that gentle inputs at this point of deflection on the real stick will lead to sudden radical ones in the sim. The difference between pulling 3 Gs or 4 Gs is slight, but stick curve means that you will need to mind yourself very carefully when doing anything radical. In my opinion this is a far more critical phase of flight than AAR and sacrificing precision and control in combat so you can tank more easily is not a good trade at all, and by the looks of things even severe stick curve isn't making it any easier for some, so this means that its not the stick's sensitivity that's screwing you up, its your own lack of skill. That means practice, and you might as well not practice a configuration that creates downsides and bad habits that are just as hard to unlearn down the road.

 

Reducing curves as you become better is a fairly easy thing to adapt to in my experience. A small curve on your stick makes things a lot easier when you start out with formation flying. As you become better at it you can always reduce it step by step down to zero.

It keeps frustration to a minimum when you start out and when you get better you can reduce it step by step. That's how I did it. I would NOT recommend starting out without a curve. I probably wouldn't be able to refuel at all today if I didn't use a 25 curve in the beginning because there's a high chance that I would've given up in frustration.

As I said, I'm down to 10 on my stick (no curve on the throttles) and I'm going to reduce it down to 5 and then zero. But for beginners I would highly recommend a curve of 20-30 if they have problems. It makes things A LOT easier in the beginning.

[=Mac=]

I had a curve of 30 and things were just not precise when I needed it. I do know about the wild throws at the edges of the stick so I expect it out there. I moved it to 40 on the pitch which helped me up until AAR. I got frustrated (shooting the tanker twice made me feel better...) but I move the curve up to 50 and got super precise response and could slide up to the boom easy. Getting "contact" was great. My third AAR. I will try lowering the curve later.

 

But my question is: if I disconnect, is there anything I am not doing to end up with no response from the tanker? The boom stays down but that's it. Then, I can't even get a connect with the boom practically stuck into the nose-port! (The boom does not "seek" me as I close in.)

 

Edit: Okay, I will focus on the tanker not the boom.

Edited March 9, 2014 by =Mac=

[doright]

I've always wondered about this in DCS:

When you call the tanker the boom is lowered to, let's call it first position. When you get close to position the boomer raises the boom. Is the first position the center of travel for the boom, then the boom is raised so those planes with the A/R port behind the pilot can pass beneath?

[Gisen]

I feel I need stick curves because my stick constantly jiggles and isn't accurate. If I just increase the dead Zone I had thought that was just near the centre, am I wrong?

[Derbysieger]

I had a curve of 30 and things were just not precise when I needed it. I do know about the wild throws at the edges of the stick so I expect it out there. I moved it to 40 on the pitch which helped me up until AAR. I got frustrated (shooting the tanker twice made me feel better...) but I move the curve up to 50 and got super precise response and could slide up to the boom easy. Getting "contact" was great. My third AAR. I will try lowering the curve later.

 

But my question is: if I disconnect, is there anything I am not doing to end up with no response from the tanker? The boom stays down but that's it. Then, I can't even get a connect with the boom practically stuck into the nose-port! (The boom does not "seek" me as I close in.)

 

Edit: Okay, I will focus on the tanker not the boom.

 

 

Did you press NWS after the disconnect? The canopy rail indicator needs to show "READY" before you can take fuel.

 

Here's a guide I wrote some time ago: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=170423297

 

Also, get that curve down asap. the plane must feel extremely sluggish close to the center and extremely twitchy on the outer range of the stick. Get that at least down to 30.

Maybe you should just try to fly in a stable position behind the tanker without the boom to distract you and only when you manage to do that move on to actually refueling your plane.

[PFunk1606688187]

Reducing curves as you become better is a fairly easy thing to adapt to in my experience. A small curve on your stick makes things a lot easier when you start out with formation flying.... *snip* It makes things A LOT easier in the beginning.

I used to make that argument. I just think that every hour flying under one type of configuration programs your brain for a given muscle memory and every time you change it you're changing the muscle memory again which means the relative level of expertise you have is diminished.

 

I don't want to sound like a jerk but its just sloppy in my opinion. I say this because I can say I was sloppy. Sure it was probably easier because my curve was so low, but I had it in place for over 2 years. What did it do to my flying? It meant that my gut reaction to pulling high G turns was wrong when I changed my curve despite having at that point hundreds of hours in the virtual plane.

 

I get it though, this isn't real life so enjoyment does matter. Some people would rather succeed with the limited time they have to play. That's perfectly reasonable. I still think its sub optimal as a learning process though. I'm just saying, if you can stomach the short term failure its better medium and long term.

 

 

I had a curve of 30 and things were just not precise when I needed it. I do know about the wild throws at the edges of the stick so I expect it out there. I moved it to 40 on the pitch which helped me up until AAR. I got frustrated (shooting the tanker twice made me feel better...) but I move the curve up to 50 and got super precise response and could slide up to the boom easy. Getting "contact" was great. My third AAR. I will try lowering the curve later.

I think you should think differently. Its not your curve thats imprecise, its you. Your brain is not yet able to generate naturally accurate inputs. This isn't surprising because you have no baseline because you're new. Sadly, 50 curve is crippling, as would be 30. I wouldn't be surprised if trying to dodge a SAM you blew straight through the steady to the chopped tone then stalled out.

 

One thing that might produce better results is forget the boom. Forget AAR, instead focus on basic formation flying. Nobody in real life gets anywhere near a boom without at least months of formation flying. Fly on the tanker's wing, turn on your standby HUD, and fly entirely visually. No TVV, no altimeter, nothing. Its horrifyingly awkward, but if you just do 2 or 3 sessions on a wing of maybe 20-30 unbroken minutes, with racetrack turns thrown in, you will find you're learning, plus because its formation flying you can be as close or as distant as you want and as you get better you tighten up. I think this is better for learning even if you keep a high stick curve.

 

I think a lot of the frustration comes from trying to accomplish the hardest feat of formation flying with 0 formation flying experience.I would say its better to handicap your expectations and accomplish progressively larger goals than go for the big one and handicap your brain's inability to react fast enough because you're too inexperienced. To me it just feels kind of like learning inside out.

I've always wondered about this in DCS:

When you call the tanker the boom is lowered to, let's call it first position. When you get close to position the boomer raises the boom. Is the first position the center of travel for the boom, then the boom is raised so those planes with the A/R port behind the pilot can pass beneath?

 

I believe the boom is actually at its bottom of travel then it snaps to something near centre. I don't think its realistic because every video real AAR showed me the boom staying stock still until the pilot gets close enough for the operator to start trying to guide into the receptacle. It makes no sense to me that the boom would rest at anything but centre position when the pilot is pre-contact. One of the more annoying things when learning to AAR is that you don't know where you should be behind the tanker, and this behavior just confuses you more.

[redfish]

+1 for Y=X.

 

+1 Leave it linear :)

[Fakum]

one of my biggest problems is that my Cougar HOTAS is a bit worn, I have alot of slop in the yoke. I have beem attempting to contact others outside of this thread to rebuild it, but no luck to date. I have to keep fiddling with the curves and especially deadbands to compensate. I spent most of the day yesterday working on the refueling,,got about a dozen hookups, but couldnt keep it steady,, throttle is set fine enough to keep it at say 249 knts,, its otherwise all over the place,,, work in progress,,

[doright]

one of my biggest problems is that my Cougar HOTAS is a bit worn, I have alot of slop in the yoke. I have beem attempting to contact others outside of this thread to rebuild it, but no luck to date. I have to keep fiddling with the curves and especially deadbands to compensate. I spent most of the day yesterday working on the refueling,,got about a dozen hookups, but couldnt keep it steady,, throttle is set fine enough to keep it at say 249 knts,, its otherwise all over the place,,, work in progress,,

 

Because of the slop I found that trimming so that you need some constant nose up or nose down (your preference) pressure makes it steadier. With the trim in you are no longer working across the slop, you are just increasing or relaxing pressure slightly.

[Fakum]

I do trim prior to preconnect, but Im not really following you otherwise,, the slop has an effect on the pot positions,,, you can watch the pot spikes on the graph while not even touching the stick, and as soon as you do, it go bonkers a bit while still working within the slop spot. Thats why I have to increase my deadband