DCS F-35A

[nick10]

Get out and promote this guys or it ain't gonna happen

[Starkiller]

It's not. If you have money to invest, you should be THE FIRST to invest into your own project, if you are asking for other ppl money, but then using your own money only if forced, means that you don't believe into your own project, but you pretend to ask others money?

 

It's legit if you put your money into the project at the start, but if you fake the pledges the last hours only to reach the target and collect those others money then you're playing smart and I already see what's your real intention (trying to earn easy money).

 

It is not so in the real business world. Using 100% one's own money have less Return on Investment (ROI) than using others'. They need to maximize profit, especially in a niche market such as flight sim. This is not charity. Welcome to capitalism.

[outlawal2]

This is not correct, most ventures that get financial backing will provide a percentage of profit to those financial backers.

 

For whatever reason this project is not going down the conventional route for obtaining financial backing.

 

Why is a jet fighter sim of a current jet fighter which will be around for 50 years unable to find financial backing from conventional means?

 

This makes me just sit back and watch for a bit rather than coughing up money.

 

What is "not correct" about what I said? I was talking about Kick Starter projects and you decided to change the subject to what you think is the conventional route for backing a project...

 

If you watch some of the videos Mr. Kinney has provided you would see that he has answered that question already... Basically he wants to retain as much control of the project as he can and when you have a company or publisher step in and throw big dollars at a project you LOSE that control. Once the big dollars are there, the folks that have the cash make the calls and this is often detrimental to the original vision of said project..

 

Once again, my view is I am encouraged by this approach as it shows that Kinney is more interested in providing an excellent product with no compromises rather than just chasing the gravy train of cash...

[outlawal2]

I'm just curious what do you base your experience statements on? I must be missing something here, because I see no references related to building a fully functional 3D cockpit (with HMD) plus radar modeling plus AFM or even a new terrain in DCS World among other things (just random examples), especially given that the teams with recent relevant experience (like producing FSX add-ons) seem to be struggling here.

 

So, please pardon my sorry skeptical mind, but I hope they have some updates forthcoming to the KS page, because, frankly, all I see is a 3D model plus links to youtube videos and various DCS World features. I would at least expect the team presentation with their relevant technical skills (to make up for the lack of presentation material) which would make it possible to pull off this daunting task. So, that would make a nice KS update, IMHO.

 

Once again you guys kill me.. You get on this forum and start negative posts with ZERO effort on your part to look at the information that has been provided AD NAUSEUM... Yes sir, you have missed quite a bit and if you take a few minutes and go out to the http://www.kinneyinteractive.com website you will see that this guy is a bio mechanical engineer, that was a marine officer and works directly with the US military to build and integrate the avionics for the F22 Raptor and B2 Stealth bomber for use in military grade flight simulators... (Anyone else out there have those creds?)

 

He also makes flight simulators for museums and other endeavors so I think the flight dynamics part is pretty familiar to him..

 

And 30 years experience programming flight simulators as well as commercial game / sims...

 

What exactly is your question regarding this individual's credentials to produce a quality flight simulation?

 

:doh:

[npole]

They need to maximize profit

 

That's quite wrong, when you ask for others money you're not maximize the profits, you're reducing the risks, because you're using other ppl money for your own project.

With kickstarter it's even worse, since these person will not receive a slice of the profits, so basically you want to risk ZERO.

 

It is cool for those persons that doesn't have a capital to invest, but having a great idea; but in the moment you prove to have your own money to invest (injecting "fake" money because you're not going to hit the target) they you're telling me: "there's a concrete risk that this is going to fail, so instead of my money i'm going to risk YOURS!".

 

This is not about capitalism, this is scam my friend.

[q800]

Just wake me up, when there is any DCS Jet Fighter released at all. Then you'll see my money, not a penny before.

[metheluckydonut]

Just wake me up, when there is any DCS Jet Fighter released at all. Then you'll see my money, not a penny before.

 

I have to agree with him.

All you ever hear about Kickstarter projects after they've been funded is what a catastrophe they've become (most recently the OUYA).

[Spins321]

My thoughts exactly.

 

I have voiced this very concern on more than one occasion in this very thread. I cannot believe that the Devs over at Kinny missed every single post. Maybe they did....mmmm. In a final attempt at attempting to elicit an answer, I can only hope that by quoting your very eloquent statement, which I echo wholeheartedly, the matter will be addressed by a member of Kinny Interactive, if for no other reason than a start towards complete transparency.

 

Hello,

I'm the 3D modeler. I had posted earlier a shot of the model in DCS, which Skatezilla had kindly lend his assistance to. He condensed what could have taken me about a month to figure out on my own or through trudging through the forums to a couple hours in a single night. Here's the shot:

 

There's still ALOT for me to figure out, but I just wanted to correct the notion that no other updates had been made.

 

Jamal

[Dudikoff]

Yes sir, you have missed quite a bit and if you take a few minutes and go out to the http://www.kinneyinteractive.com website you will see that this guy is a bio mechanical engineer, that was a marine officer and works directly with the US military to build and integrate the avionics for the F22 Raptor and B2 Stealth bomber for use in military grade flight simulators...

 

Nope, haven't missed any of that. If you read the part of my post you've quoted again, you would see that I state "because I see no references related to building a fully functional 3D cockpit (with HMD) plus radar modeling plus AFM or even a new terrain in DCS World among other things".

 

So, those broad and generic statements have little to do with actual DCS World module development. Yes, it is helpful in making some general avionics systems design concept, but when it comes to coding it all together and integrating stuff into the DCS World, that won't really help a lot. Not to mention a lot of features that ED aircraft not yet support (e.g. DCS level A2A and A2G radar modelling).

 

So, who is actually going to do all that? Mr. Kinney himself? His team? Who's on this team and what experience do they have? This kind of information would be very helpful to instilling confidence in the supporters, IMHO.

 

He also makes flight simulators for museums and other endeavors so I think the flight dynamics part is pretty familiar to him.. And 30 years experience programming flight simulators as well as commercial game / sims... What exactly is your question regarding this individual's credentials to produce a quality flight simulation?:doh:

 

Again, broad statements with little to no detail or arguments behind them. What serious flight simulators would that be, exactly? Check some of the other 3rd party forums which had recent module development experience (FSX) and much more to present, but have went pretty silent after that. The point being that making these modules is obviously pretty complex so it should take a bit more than just bold statements to convince.

 

If you so believe in it all and have already invested money, why does it upset you if a part of the community is not that convinced? Don't take it personally, but I think you're being very naive about this.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Dudikoff

[Dudikoff]

There's still ALOT for me to figure out, but I just wanted to correct the notion that no other updates had been made.

 

Yes, we have seen that, but pardon me for being direct here, almost anybody with some will and possibly programming experience can get a 3D model from the net and with some help from the more experienced members of the forum, make it show in the DCS World in a matter of a few days at most. But things get much more tricky after that.

 

IMHO, this is too little to show for me to invest money into it. I hope it's not like that, but if this is where the project is currently, you should have given it like 6 months of development at least to have something more to present; e.g. a more finished 3D model flying with some basic FM, having a few animations (maybe cockpit opening closing, gears retracting), 3D cockpit prototype with some of the avionics systems integrated, etc. That would have been a different story altogether. But, good luck, of course.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Dudikoff

[cichlidfan]

I pledged but I would still like an answer to this one...

 

How is this 'with or without DCS World' going to work?

 

EDIT: To be more precise, if it works without DCS World what is the environment?

[Spins321]

Yes, we have seen that, but pardon me for being direct here, almost anybody with some will and possibly programming experience can get a 3D model from the net and with some help from the more experienced members of the forum, make it show in the DCS World in a matter of a few days at most. But things get much more tricky after that.

 

IMHO, this is too little to show for me to invest money into it. I hope it's not like that, but if this is where the project is currently, you should have given it like 6 months of development at least to have something more to present; e.g. a more finished 3D model flying with some basic FM, having a few animations (maybe cockpit opening closing, gears retracting), 3D cockpit prototype with some of the avionics systems integrated, etc. That would have been a different story altogether. But, good luck, of course.

 

Rgr that, back in my hole. :)

[pappavis]

As hard-core ED support valid questions.

 

So, who is actually going to do all that? Mr. Kinney himself? His team? Who's on this team and what experience do they have? This kind of information would be very helpful to instilling confidence in the supporters, IMHO.

 

Loadsa Kickstarter projects succesfully get funded, without funders knowing the team members. Some projects do post team members bio's.

His funding goal of $74k, in my opinion rather small, but large compared to DCS: MiG-21. Most projects such as DCS: Hawk, DCS: T2 Buckey has been going forever, >=1 year and no final release is sight. KI is overly ambitious with hi beta date of Jul-14. I doubt 74k is enough for assembling experienced project team. Could be wrong though.

Me thinks a final release would be >=Dec-2014.

 

 

Theoretically, the F-35A-crowd in my view be able to raise $200k.

[Rotorhead]

Once again you guys kill me.. You get on this forum and start negative posts with ZERO effort on your part to look at the information that has been provided AD NAUSEUM... yada yada yada

:doh:

 

So you come in here and start advocating KI after seeing ZERO evidence of their abilities, right? Truly, much wiser.

 

Without any doubt, Mr. Kinney is surely a skilled and experienced man in his field. But have you seen any particular demonstration of his F-35 inside DCS World? Or, have you seen any of his previous work in DCS World at all?

 

No you didn't, because unless I'm really missing something, there isn't any. Sorry, but just saying "Hey, I'm pretty good at my job and I'm confident I can do it guys" might be nice, but I don't consider it a convincing presentation of my project.

 

So please don't be upset if somebody doesn't share your gullible approach. Let KI to convince us themselves, preferably by showing us something working inside DCSW.

 

This is not about capitalism, this is scam my friend.

 

Isn't it essentially the same? *runs*hides* :)

[sail]

Pre order is the best way, the producer que will guarantee the product will be delivered on a set date, ie the producer this also assuming some of the risks of financial loss the customer need not count on luck to get the product, I am not an investor, I'm a buyer.

*for me to be an investor I want part of the profits ...

I will have part of the profits?

I will not be part of the profits!!

Go borrow money to the bank / financial, when the product is completed sell me

 

(joke..... I'm going to ask for money to play the lottery if I win I get rich if I lose smoothly ... the money was not my)

want to get rich without liability or risk of financial loss. can only be a joke :lol:

[lanmancz]

I will have part of the profits?

I will not be part of the profits!!

 

Not exactly the case here but besides kickstarter there's also this gambitious.com crowdfunding site that I find even better than kickstarter - by backing a project you are becoming an investor and you will get a piece of the profit when it's done.

 

Anyway, about KI - I threw in my few $$ just to give the project a chance to get off the ground. I agree that it's a bit ambitious. But I guess they are the first regular company that's becoming 3rd party dev and I guess that means that the cost is higher (but they can focus on it and so deliver the product faster). I think all the other teams are just enthusiasts with day jobs that do this as a side job / hobby (and I would support them as well if they did a kickstarter - Beczl's got my money already :-)). Plus Wags gave this a thumbs up.

Edited June 30, 2013 by lanmancz

[eagle13]

Just thought guys might like to see this... http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/683368164/f-35a-lightning-ii-by-kinney-interactive/

 

Thanks to all

[Starkiller]

That's quite wrong, when you ask for others money you're not maximize the profits, you're reducing the risks, because you're using other ppl money for your own project.

With kickstarter it's even worse, since these person will not receive a slice of the profits, so basically you want to risk ZERO.

 

It is cool for those persons that doesn't have a capital to invest, but having a great idea; but in the moment you prove to have your own money to invest (injecting "fake" money because you're not going to hit the target) they you're telling me: "there's a concrete risk that this is going to fail, so instead of my money i'm going to risk YOURS!".

 

This is not about capitalism, this is scam my friend.

 

I don't deny Kickstarter reducing risks, but it is also increase the Return on Investment because you get the same amount of profit with less of your money. And if they cannot get funded enough and have to inject their own money, their risk will actually be higher than when they get fully funded in which risks is almost zero. You can disagree with the concept of raising fund through KS but that not making it bad. People have to know what the condition they invest in and what benefit they expect. In this case, they don't expect any profit sharing, only incentives KI provides. They know what they will get before hand, so that's fair.

 

I don't see it as scam in anyway if they gonna do it that way, as long as they deliver what they promise.

[Starkiller]

Just thought guys might like to see this... http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/683368164/f-35a-lightning-ii-by-kinney-interactive/

 

Thanks to all

 

Hi eagle,

 

I gonna be frank with you, and you know that I am support your project strongly. However, I am not sure how that trend was calculated, but I don't think it will be accurate at all. The 2nd 24 hours pledging number is much lower than the 1st one indicating that the initial wave have died down. If a new wave from PR through other gaming sites won't come or come but not strong enough you will have trouble reaching the minimum goal. Some strong PR act is much needed. And I think you should communicate more to relieve some worries from the skeptics which might translate some of them into higher pledging.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Starkiller

[Taproot]

I asked David about the B and C model if he only made the 75k dollargoal:

 

Hello Taproot we will be doing all three versions. We may have to wait until the A is done to start, but we will get there. If you're part of the OPEVAL Team - then your part of the team, and that's for all three models. Nevada is not being done by us, but I'm very confident that our flight testing will be flown over the Nellis Ranges.

 

So all 3 versions will be done, but it will just take longer.

[sail]

I don't deny Kickstarter reducing risks, but it is also increase the Return on Investment because you get the same amount of profit with less of your money. And if they cannot get funded enough and have to inject their own money, their risk will actually be higher than when they get fully funded in which risks is almost zero. You can disagree with the concept of raising fund through KS but that not making it bad. People have to know what the condition they invest in and what benefit they expect. In this case, they don't expect any profit sharing, only incentives KI provides. They know what they will get before hand, so that's fair.

 

I don't see it as scam in anyway if they gonna do it that way, as long as they deliver what they promise.

 

 

 

:chair:

[eagle13]

Hi everyone I wanted to talk a little bit about the kickstarter project. Let me start by saying thanks to all for the words of encouragement and support. I know not everyone on this forum is a supporter, but I still believe they have the right to post concerns and questions. With kickstarter I wanted to give individuals an opportunity to get involved in the design process. By that I mean obvious things like types of squadrons, what do we think about open avionic access bays prior to launch, and how can the crew chief interact effectively. But its more than that, like feedback and decisions about the implementation of things like RWR. In any project there are compromises – always! But I will go to the OPEVAL team and lay it out. We get this capability or that – it will take this much extra dev time or if we do this we can’t do that. These kind of decisions need to be made though out the design and development process. I really wanted to try this approach. Now as for Kickstarter; with the exception of a $10.00 contribution (and even they get access to closed forums and decision making) I designed the contributions so that everyone received the F-35. $28.00 represents a savings. For all OPEVAL Test Team guys, not only do they get the F-35 but they’ll be flying it long before the general public on high speed servers we will maintain – testing everything from flight models to a flight control computer failure EP checklist. So yes, for some wait and see – I respect that. But for others, who want to get involved and receive the F-35, there is Kickstarter.

[f-18hornet]

Hi everyone I wanted to talk a little bit about the kickstarter project. Let me start by saying thanks to all for the words of encouragement and support. I know not everyone on this forum is a supporter, but I still believe they have the right to post concerns and questions. With kickstarter I wanted to give individuals an opportunity to get involved in the design process. By that I mean obvious things like types of squadrons, what do we think about open avionic access bays prior to launch, and how can the crew chief interact effectively. But its more than that, like feedback and decisions about the implementation of things like RWR. In any project there are compromises – always! But I will go to the OPEVAL team and lay it out. We get this capability or that – it will take this much extra dev time or if we do this we can’t do that. These kind of decisions need to be made though out the design and development process. I really wanted to try this approach. Now as for Kickstarter; with the exception of a $10.00 contribution (and even they get access to closed forums and decision making) I designed the contributions so that everyone received the F-35. $28.00 represents a savings. For all OPEVAL Test Team guys, not only do they get the F-35 but they’ll be flying it long before the general public on high speed servers we will maintain – testing everything from flight models to a flight control computer failure EP checklist. So yes, for some wait and see – I respect that. But for others, who want to get involved and receive the F-35, there is Kickstarter.

 

You have to post this at every flightsim forums you know and you will get 75K dollars.

[npole]

I don't deny Kickstarter reducing risks, but it is also increase the Return on Investment because you get the same amount of profit with less of your money.

 

I'm not sure if you understand what's KS is for.. mixing the project expenses with the profit is completely wrong! KS is not there to maximize the profits, those money should be only used to develop the product, while the profits are accounted by the production costs that is something completely different! I know that many people believes that Kickstarter is a way to earn money.. but IT IS NOT! Kickstarter is not linked to the profit, it's there only to help you to "do something" when you do not have a initial capital.

 

Launch a product on Kickstarter in the hope of collect an easy profit is the worst way to use that platform, that's not a damn e-commerce platform, for that type of things there's a sale method, it's called: pre-sale (pre-ordering for the customer).

[Voodoo-chacal]

Pre order is the best way, the producer will guarantee the product will be delivered on a set date, ie the producer this also assuming some of the risks of financial loss the customer need not count on luck to get the product

 

 

want to get rich without liability or risk of financial loss.

 

 

:thumbup:

Edited June 29, 2013 by Voodoo-chacal