Would you want/ allow flyable civilian aircraft in DCS

[Flagrum]

I'm just curious would a high fidelity civilian aircraft be ok by this group? Would DCS allow it? We know in the future it looks like we will time appropriate servers (ww2, Vietnam, etc). Everyday thousands guys fly airliners from A-B in a virtual airspace with in some cases guys playing as ATC. We all know that FSX flight models are garbage. In real life guys are flying around civilian stuff while military operations are conducted. Would you buy anything from a glider to a 747? All high fidelity. Just curious your thoughts.

I am okay with this idea - as long as the a/c is somewhat ... "iconic" or "special" in a way. Dunno, I would pay nothing for lets say, a Cessna, Lear Jet or other such "generic" planes. I am no expert, I don't know much planes ... by name ... but, for example some sort of seaplane maybe?

[Yob]

[VV][/VV]

Gentlemen, this sim is about combat.

 

:thumbup::thumbup:

[aussieboy]

I think militarised versions of the more popular civil aircraft and helo's would be a great addition. Most Boeing heavy's have a mil version, heck I think Air Force One or 737 wedge tail would be a blast in DCS. To me it's all about the environment, fly, drive, sail, march do whatever you want in whatever you want because at the end of the day it's the DCS environment which makes it such a great experience.

 

Simulation is my hobby, if the option became available to get a civi I would jump at it, if I could get a sub or aircraft carrier I would get them too. Call me mad but I would even get hang glider if one came out :D

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

I believe the best to get an idea of how much such an add-on could help ED, and even get funds for development of further sophisticated air fighters would be to step ahead and produce one civilian model, even one which serves military purposes as well.

 

A B200, a C130, a tanker allowing for multiplayer refueling flights, etc...

 

To be honest, I still dream of PMDG, a well known quality add-on producer for FSX getting involved with DCS World and offering one such model :-)

[Silver_Dragon]

Gentlemen, this sim is about combat.

 

that's misleading.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1480510&postcount=1

DCS stands for “Digital Combat Simulator”. DCS is a world simulation engine permitting the user to operate or direct a growing number of combat and civilian aircraft, ground vehicles and ships, from different historical eras, in different geographical locations and at different levels of fidelity.

[LostOblivion]

I am all for DCS picking up the ball where FSX dropped it.

 

However, even though 3rd Party Developers can make high quality civilian modules for DCS as they please, they cannot directly alter the core features of their simulation environment such as ATC and, quite frankly, the small size of the world.

 

If ED were to welcome the conventional flight simulation community, they would have to alter the core of their sim so as to unify the two worlds into one, realistic environment.

 

The small size of the world is overcomable, and is probably improved on a lot in the new EDGE engine. For all we know, EDGE could support the whole world as modules being put in place one by one, with Nevada being the first. Parhaps EDGE also comes with a new terrain modeler that is easy to use for people who wants to make their own theatre. Ideally, it would still take time to make a theatre, but with focus on content, not technicalities.

 

However, in terms of ATC, they would have to maintain two different environments, adding one with civilian protocols equaling or surpassing that of FSX, and one with military protocols building on the one we have already. The mission designer could then control which frequencies would be used by civilian channels, and which that would be procured by the military.

 

These are only two of the issues that would have to be adressed for DCS to welcome the conventional flight simulation community, IMO.

[Rotorhead]

Gentlemen, this sim is about combat.

 

Uh, NO. This sim is about flying.

 

As Mouse said above, the fusion of military and civilian sim would be a win for everyone. Military aircraft fly side by side with civilian ones IRL and I don't know why they cannot in sim. And just like IRL, you can choose between military and civilian flying career - or try both. If you don't want to fly civilian aircraft, don't buy them. But others might welcome this possibility.

 

And, modding purely civilian simulator to allow military operations is not easy, limited or just impossible in some aspects - because civilian sims don't have to handle things like weapons, radars, combat damage, enemy AI, yada yada. On the other hand, turning military sim into civilian one is rather easy. Civilian planes aren't different from the military ones, they just don't blow stuff up.

 

DCS as it stands now has everything what is needed to model a civilian aircraft. Advanced flight model - check. Detailed avionics - check. Electric, hydraulic, mechanical systems - check. Damage and failures - check. You can start working on a civilian module at this very minute, without having to change the basic DCS engine.

 

Throw in bigger maps and better ATC (which is needed anyway) and you have the ultimate mix of civilian and combat sim. It's just up to you how to use it.

[JG14_Smil]

It would be DFS then, no?

 

 

please, just fix the bugs.

[Vidken]

Third-party developers who might be interested in developing civilian aircraft for DCS likely wouldn't bother at all if DCS were restricted to combat aircraft. I'd have to wonder what mysterious critical resource would be diverted away from DCS if these third-parties who would only be here for civilian aircraft are developing those modules for DCSW. I haven't seen a justification as to why DCSW should be arbitrarily denied this genre of flight simulation, especially when Eagle Dynamics themselves have already included civilian aircraft in their description of DCSW as a platform.

 

This is entirely my personal preference, but what I enjoy the most is online public multiplayer, hanging out with people, getting into formation flights, cross countries, and that sort of thing. DCSW has been the most fun I've had in this context. I've been flying on a freeflight server lately which seems almost constantly busy, and people have a great time, stay logged in for hours on end seemingly every day, and make friends. All without firing a single shot.

 

So why are they here instead of on FSX? Probably for the same reasons I am.

 

The biggest problems I have with FSX and X-Plane as multiplayer experience is the lack of consistency between users. We need to own expensive addon aircraft in order to see other players flying them online. There have been many instances in group flights in FSX for instance where I don't have the same $50 airport that everybody else does, and the differing elevations caused aircraft operating out of an airport to land, taxi, and park at different levels. Everybody has different REX themes. Where's the adventure in this? In a DCSW multiplayer server, if I bought the C172 but other people didn't, they'd still see me in the airplane because the external model and audio were patched into the base program. If I didn't buy the C172 but other people did, I'd still see them in their proper aircraft. This consistency extends to scenery, and (as far as I can tell) the weather. Little things like this just make the experience feel that much better in multiplayer for DCSW.

 

DCSW has other advantages as well, but I'm mostly here for the multiplayer, and I'm quite honestly not doing any civilian flight simming at all because I'm fed up with FSX, and X-Plane doesn't seem to have any sort of drop-in multiplayer the way DCSW does.

 

As for specific aircraft, I'd easily pay full DCS module price for a glider. We already have racing missions in DCS, so I'd love glider tasks.

[LostOblivion]

Throw in bigger maps and better ATC (which is needed anyway) and you have the ultimate mix of civilian and combat sim.

You'd still need seperate protocols for military and civilian channels, though.

[MonsterZero]

I will fly "cargo" and "passengers" in the game if they pay me "credits" or "gold" which can be used to purchase future planes and updates, as it happens in World of Tanks.

:D

[Anatoli-Kagari9]

So....

 

what came up from this thread on the ED side ? :)

 

You can always produce a Russian / Polish / Czech aircraft and avoid all the hassle regarding licensing.

 

I believe producing a Beechcraft, a Piper or even a Cessna can cost a fortune in royalties payed to the aircraft maker, but probably a PZL, a Sportcruiser, etc... would not have the same problems... or an An-2, An-24 :-))))), a Yak-40 ... there are sooooo many :-)

[Prowler111]

I say no, at least no with current DCS "universe".

As it currently stands, DCS lacks too many "civvie stuff" to create something "A-10 level" into the sim, and IMHO if you don´t aim to that level of fidelity, there is absolutely no point in simulate anything GA (general aviation), because that´s the whole point.Maybe if ED devotes and creates a "cross platform" that include navigational aids, better terrain features, "live" weather(online updated), better AI,credible ATC and much more, it could be up for a consideration, but what´s the point in flying a FC3 level Cessna in a universe that doesn´t even bring you sight seeing? Just IMHO from my personal standpoint and also, from my developer point of view.

[Grigs]

Sorry if this has been said before, but I would really like to simply have civilian traffic. No need for thousands of models, and even less for advanced ones. Simply conctacts that would add more challenge regarding situational awareness.

 

I can see some guys coming to say that if there it is an open war scenarion, chances for civilian flights to stop are high. But there are still cases when it would be interesting.

 

Edit: Sorry guys, just read the thread's title over, and I am way off =] So, I would love to see more civilian planes of different kinds, but I do not feel like they should be made playable

Edited July 10, 2013 by Grigs

[g550flyer]

There is a possible spin off of having civil flyable aircraft. In the U.S. we have CRAF(Civil Reserve Air Fleet). Contractually selected airlines will supply aircraft/crew to assist the DOD with airlift when needed. Missions could be created to transit the AOR carrying cargo/troops throughout the airbases. Missions could require tactics for survival. The risk of hostile fire and intercept would make missions interesting. Type of departures/approaches flown could dictate the exposure to risks. Do you guys remember the airbus that was hit by a SAM will departing Baghdad? They made an emergency landing. You could even create escort missions. Not only add flyable civil aircraft, also add military transports. Flying around in the hot zone without defensive systems would test your skills and risk management.

[SuperMarioMonti]

I think that DCS should be finished first. Fighters, Bombers, ect.

It could be possible to produce a 767 and the tanker version of it, but i think that there is no need of civilian aircraft in this environment. DCS should be a full scale military aviation simulation. There are other sims out there who focus on simulating airliners and stuff.

Producers should focus on high fidelty aircraft(both Russian and American) and try to create a fully working, living world.

[Grigs]

Producers should focus on high fidelty aircraft(both Russian and American) and try to create a fully working, living world.

That's my point. Civilian non flyable aircrafts should be part of that living world :)

[galevsky06]

That's my point. Civilian non flyable aircrafts should be part of that living world :)

 

We already have it. We have transport aircrafts + lua script to generate traffic in you area.

 

What could we need more ? :huh: You want B-747 instead of IL-76 ? What for ? Military aircrafts never fly closed to civilian planes (but to intercept), so IL-76 does the job at distance.

Edited July 11, 2013 by galevsky06

[justoc]

I think that DCS should be finished first. Fighters, Bombers, ect.

It could be possible to produce a 767 and the tanker version of it, but i think that there is no need of civilian aircraft in this environment. DCS should be a full scale military aviation simulation. There are other sims out there who focus on simulating airliners and stuff.

Producers should focus on high fidelty aircraft(both Russian and American) and try to create a fully working, living world.

 

I doubt DCS will ever be 'finished.' It is more of a wherever the wind takes me movement, which is obviously working well.

[311Gryphon]

We already have it. We have transport aircrafts + lua script to generate traffic in you area.

 

What could we need more ? :huh: You want B-747 instead of IL-76 ? What for ? Military aircrafts never fly closed to civilian planes (but to intercept), so IL-76 does the job at distance.

 

I see your point but they do sometimes fly nearby. We have an Air National Guard base very close (close enough to look as though they are sharing runways) near our international airport. On a daily basis we see F-16's taking off and flying nearby commercial airlines. Not REALLY NEAR but near enough to be in proximity. I also landed at an airport in a nearby state that had an ANG unit right off the taxiway that we took for departure.

 

I'm not saying that there would be too much civilian traffic in a combat zone; however.

 

Having said all of that, while I want option in DCS and civilian aircraft could be fun...I've somewhat changed my mind and would prefer concentration on military aircraft only. Although if a 3rd party wanted to try to develop a civie I wouldn't be opposed.

[galevsky06]

I see your point but they do sometimes fly nearby. We have an Air National Guard base very close (close enough to look as though they are sharing runways) near our international airport. On a daily basis we see F-16's taking off and flying nearby commercial airlines. Not REALLY NEAR but near enough to be in proximity. I also landed at an airport in a nearby state that had an ANG unit right off the taxiway that we took for departure.

 

I'm not saying that there would be too much civilian traffic in a combat zone; however.

 

Having said all of that, while I want option in DCS and civilian aircraft could be fun...I've somewhat changed my mind and would prefer concentration on military aircraft only. Although if a 3rd party wanted to try to develop a civie I wouldn't be opposed.

 

Some extra bunch of non-flyable good-looking models, why not.... :smilewink:

 

But I think that guys can do that without too much pain in Mods and Apps section below. Am I wrong ?

[Kroll]

We already have it. We have transport aircrafts + lua script to generate traffic in you area.

 

What could we need more ? :huh: You want B-747 instead of IL-76 ? What for ? Military aircrafts never fly closed to civilian planes (but to intercept), so IL-76 does the job at distance.

 

Hi guys,

 

I personally have flown a 747 carrying troops in and out of Kuwait multiple times. Over Iraq in the middle of the night. Everyday our airlines fly troops and equipment in and out of military theaters. Anyone remember the 747-400 a few months back that had a load shift in Afghanistan? That was a military charter flown by a civilian company it was my understanding they were fly mrap s.

 

DCS is moving in all different directions. In the coming years I'm sure theaters will change, more nav aids could be included, communication civi and military could be added quite easily.

 

So when I asked if people would want civilian aircraft. It was meant to have hardcore civilian flyable aircraft. Where over time those items to make a cross country flight in a Cessna 172 enjoyable. Just because someone is flying a c-172 doesn't mean that the multiplayer server has to have a harrier jet in it. People who set up these multiplayer servers are going to make whatever senario they want. To in include or not include the aircraft of there choice. In my opinion if civilian aircraft are added in the future it would bring more people and developers into this simulation. That would mean over time a richer flying environment.

[blkspade]

I can see how offering a separate civilian flight product based on the DCS engine could be beneficial for ED, and people interested in civil flight. I don't see it at all integrating well with the current DCS combat multiplayer servers. Ground-pounders tend to whine enough as it is when they get shot down, like they are getting picked on. The P-51 might as well be a civilian aircraft in an environment populated with fighter jets. If you want to test out the civilian experience hop on to a MP server with jets and P-51s, and fly around at 30,00 feet and freely ignore the fact that you could be entering enemy airspace. I did this for shits and giggles on the 104th server the other day, fun 30mins before taking a 27ER to the face. I obviously respawned in my usually F-15 after that. Can't blame the guy flying the Mig too much though, lacking NCTR and all. The only time I encountered an enemy P-51 online while in an F-15, I him gave the chance to choose to turn around, he opted for BFM. That lasted until I got bored, handed him some 20mm.

 

Then MP is structured all wrong for this type thing, and is already a slight annoyance for mission design now. It would be better if the mission editor would allow you to just check off that a particular plane exists to players at a given airfield and not have to set a fixed number. Then there would be less issues client side of not having slots left the craft they'd like to fly, and server side of mission edits to accommodate complaints of low slot counts. Then limits can be applied via Warehouse (simulate attrition) and a more general player count limit. Waypoints by user select-able role instead of per slot, would be more efficient for mission creation.

[Frostie]

We've already seen what happens when a P-51D faces a Tunguska, so I can pretty much guess what's gonna happen when a Cessna comes across one.

 

One does simply not fly into Mordor the Caucasus.

[Exorcet]

I can see how offering a separate civilian flight product based on the DCS engine could be beneficial for ED, and people interested in civil flight. I don't see it at all integrating well with the current DCS combat multiplayer servers.

 

I don't see why you wouldn't combine them, I also don't really get the examples provided below. Adding civil aircraft to DCS doesn't mean they'll have to start flying around in existing missions and it doesn't mean that players and missions designers, along with DCSW itself can't adapt to them.

 

If Civilian aircraft have their own World, that defeats the purpose of DCSW in the first place. Having everything in one place is supposed to make it easier to handle. It also makes it easier to switch from one module to another when you want to.

 

I do agree with some of your mission editor comments, but I don't think we should change to any of those new ideas, instead offer them as options to builders.