DCS: Spitfire Mk LF IXc Discussion

[NineLine]

Just for interest, here's a 1940s vintage, Rolls-Royce film about manufacturing the Merlin:

 

 

Ours will come no assembly required :)

[Combat Wombat]

Not one I had seen before Thanks, All those drawings and files and workers at the start Completely replaced with a simple laptop and a CAD program today! I also wonder what happened to all the tools for producing that iconic machine ? I wonder if some were destroyed part of disarming process or are they stored in the bowels of RR or BMW whoever owns it these days .

[HeadHunter52]

How close are we getting Sith on the release? I want my P-47 ...

 

THIS :thumbup::thumbup:

[HeadHunter52]

 

Sounds a little bit like a rip of American Patrol.... It's okay, I guess. It's more of a cover for a dance prior to a sqdrn shipping out than something about a deadly machine engaging the enemy.

 

The P-51 theme was a wonderful thing.

[Farlander]

THIS :thumbup::thumbup:

 

How close are we to get both out the way? I want the 262 :D :joystick:

[Solty]

I think that DCS theme about spitfire should be something similar in tone to the Battle of Britain theme. Uplifting yet not joyous. Maybe that kind of spin on the DCS world main theme?

[MAD-MM]

The K4 and Dora Theme is described music for this time with speaking from some bad boys. Possible we need more Winston Churchill in the sound" we never surrender ":)

 

[ame]

[/ame] Edited February 10, 2016 by MAD-MM

[Talisman_VR]

No timeline on release yet, currently, it sounds like it will have the full wing, and possibly, maybe, not for sure, a clipped wing option.

 

No, surely the developers are not back tracking and giving in to pressure on the clip wing. After all, it is a Low Fighter (LF) version, so surely it should have a clip wing (most common for LF).

The clip wing is perfectly in keeping with the natural development of the Spitfire for 1944/45 and should not be compromised for the sake of a beauty completion; surely not. The wings were clipped for a very good reason for the time period and LF version operational requirements; lets keep it real. Surely we want the performance for combat on the Normandy map, not just flying around giving air shows. Come on people, lets have the proper most common wing for the LF version and that was clipped!

There will be plenty of opportunity for the full wing when earlier versions of the Spitfire are provided.

 

Happy landings (with clipped wing Spits),

 

Talisman

Edited February 10, 2016 by 56RAF_Talisman

[westr]

From the ED Facebook page.

 

 

To me the Spitfire is one of the most beautiful aircraft ever made and the elliptical wing is a big part of her appeal. I think if ED were to incorporate the ability to change her to the clipped wing version this would represent an ideal solution.

[Yo-Yo]

No, surely the developers are not back tracking and giving in to pressure on the clip wing. After all, it is a Low Fighter (LF) version, so surely it should have a clip wing (most common for LF).

The clip wing is perfectly in keeping with the natural development of the Spitfire for 1944/45 and should not be compromised for the sake of a beauty completion; surely not. The wings were clipped for a very good reason for the time period and LF version operational requirements; lets keep it real. Surely we want the performance for combat on the Normandy map, not just flying around giving air shows. Come on people, lets have the proper most common wing for the LF version and that was clipped!

There will be plenty of opportunity for the full wing when earlier versions of the Spitfire are provided.

 

Happy landings (with clipped wing Spits),

 

Talisman

 

The matter is not so simple: clipped wings Spit traded better roll rate for climb and turn rate. That's why LF type had both types of wings. Moreover - wingtips were shipped with clipped wings.

[Solty]

No, surely the developers are not back tracking and giving in to pressure on the clip wing. After all, it is a Low Fighter (LF) version, so surely it should have a clip wing (most common for LF).

The clip wing is perfectly in keeping with the natural development of the Spitfire for 1944/45 and should not be compromised for the sake of a beauty completion; surely not. The wings were clipped for a very good reason for the time period and LF version operational requirements; lets keep it real. Surely we want the performance for combat on the Normandy map, not just flying around giving air shows. Come on people, lets have the proper most common wing for the LF version and that was clipped!

There will be plenty of opportunity for the full wing when earlier versions of the Spitfire are provided.

 

Happy landings (with clipped wing Spits),

 

Talisman

I am not a Spitfire expert... but I am pretty sure lots of Spitfires used eliptical wing. Moreover, even Spitfire Mk XIV has eliptical wings in some versions. According to wiki:smartass:, tips were attachable and detachable. That is why you have the same wing, just with 3 different types of tips. Eliptical beeing the standard. Long for high altitude. Clipped for low level flying. Of course there were units that were using each of those variants, and I am still sure the eliptical was more common in 1944. I would like to have both... but realy... eliptical has more interesting dynamics.

 

The standard eliptical Spitfire has quite heavy aileron's, very similar to the Bf109, at high speeds, but at the same time it has very light elevator. But eliptical wing has also an advantage of beeing more stable during turning at low speeds and has higher stalling speed which improves sustained turning, a thing that Spitfire will actually have to use to survive against the wunderwaffe of DCS :smilewink:

 

I realy hope though that the 25lbs boost for Merlin 66 will translate into improved performance for V-1650-7 of the P-51D. Afterall, that power was only sutainable with 150oct fuel (44-1) and it is 81'hg of MAP :3

Edited February 10, 2016 by Solty

[Talisman_VR]

The matter is not so simple: clipped wings Spit traded better roll rate for climb and turn rate. That's why LF type had both types of wings. Moreover - wingtips were shipped with clipped wings.

 

Many thanks for your reply Yo-Yo.

As I understand it, in comparison to the standard wing, at lower levels the clip wing allowed the following good things:

 

Faster level speed.

Faster acceleration.

Faster dive.

Faster roll rate (all altitudes).

Stronger wings by removal of wingtips, permitting higher IAS to be used.

Continued decent turn advantage over opposition.

A more agile fighter overall in comparison to standard wing Spitfire.

 

I also read that trial dog-fights conducted against a standard wing Spit at low level were won by the clip wing Spit.

 

I think these may all be good historic reasons why the RAF needed most LF Spitfires to have clipped wings at the time.

 

I very much hope that you are able to deliver us the clip wing Spitfire, which very much represents the historic version of the Spitfire that the RAF so badly needed at the time.

Substance over looks was required in 1944/45.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[Cripple]

I'd rather have the high level performance myself, as Reg designed them. Leave the ground pounding to the Hurricanes. :P

 

You are also looking at (from the pilot's notes, AP 1565 J,K &L) a higher stalling speed with "clipped" wings. A value of 3-6mph at all loads is quoted.

[Talisman_VR]

I'd rather have the high level performance myself, as Reg designed them. Leave the ground pounding to the Hurricanes. :P

 

You are also looking at (from the pilot's notes, AP 1565 J,K &L) a higher stalling speed with "clipped" wings. A value of 3-6mph at all loads is quoted.

 

Hi Cripple,

 

The thing is we are getting the Low Fighter version from later in the war, so why cripple it with the wing that is not optimised for low level (see what I did there, LOL). Give it the Low Fighter optimised clip wing.

As for stall speed, perhaps you are afraid you cannot handle it :P

Perhaps DCS are worried that people will find the clip wing too hard to handle; however, I think it provides an interesting prospect and perhaps a refreshing challenge from the standard Spitfire fair we tend to get with flight simulators.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[NineLine]

Or even better, give us both and let us figure it out :)

[Hummingbird]

The standard eliptical Spitfire has quite heavy aileron's, very similar to the Bf109, at high speeds, but at the same time it has very light elevator. But eliptical wing has also an advantage of beeing more stable during turning at low speeds and has higher stalling speed which improves sustained turning, a thing that Spitfire will actually not have to use to survive against the Underwaffe of DCS :smilewink:

 

There, corrected that for you.

[Hummingbird]

Many thanks for your reply Yo-Yo.

As I understand it, in comparison to the standard wing, at lower levels the clip wing allowed the following good things:

 

Faster level speed.

Faster acceleration.

Faster dive.

Faster roll rate (all altitudes).

Stronger wings by removal of wingtips, permitting higher IAS to be used.

Continued decent turn advantage over opposition.

A more agile fighter overall in comparison to standard wing Spitfire.

 

I also read that trial dog-fights conducted against a standard wing Spit at low level were won by the clip wing Spit.

 

I think these may all be good historic reasons why the RAF needed most LF Spitfires to have clipped wings at the time.

 

I very much hope that you are able to deliver us the clip wing Spitfire, which very much represents the historic version of the Spitfire that the RAF so badly needed at the time.

Substance over looks was required in 1944/45.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

Clipping the wings will hurt turn rate more than you think, and in reality probably to the point where it wouldn't have an advantage in turn rate over the 109 anymore. As all current pilots who fly both birds have said, these two birds are very close in this regard.

 

Thus I say give it the full wings, or at least give people the option to choose.

 

But perhaps I shouldn't care I guess, not until they fix the other prop aircraft at least.

[NRG-Vampire]

Clipping the wings will hurt turn rate more than you think, and in reality probably to the point where it wouldn't have an advantage in turn rate over the 109 anymore. As all current pilots who fly both birds have said, these two birds are very close in this regard.

 

Thus I say give it the full wings, or at least give people the option to choose.

 

But perhaps I shouldn't care I guess, not until they fix the other prop aircraft at least.

 

yep, eliptical wings gave better turn rate

but clipped wings gave better roll rate (catching up roll rate of focke-wulf)

 

i would like to see spits with both wing shapes :thumbsup:

[DD_Fenrir]

Beware putting too much stock in the LF designation regarding the Mk.IX...

 

In the Mk.V the LF denoted aircraft fitted with the Merlin 45 with cropped supercharger impellor which generated its max power below 15,000ft, a true low altitude modification.

 

This however is not true of the Mk.IX. The LF here designates the Merlin 66 equipped aircraft and this differed from the Merlin 61 (F Mk.IX designation) by having the supercharger gears cut in at altitude bands that made it more competitive with the Fw190A; with the Merlin 61 there was an altitude band, 15,000-23,000ft at which the Fw was still faster and out-climbed the F.Mk.IX so in order to close this disparity it was decided to adjust the supercharger settings to eliminate this gap, however a gain at this altitude band meant a slight drop in performance above 25,000ft - hence the Merlin 66. Ultimately the Merlin 66 equipped aircraft still had a top speed of 407 m.p.h. at 22,000 ft.

 

Not exactly a low fighter really....

 

Wing tips were removed as an aid to increase roll rate to reduce the Fw190s advantage and also apparently by some 2nd TAF units in an effort to reduce skin wrinkling on the top wing skins when pilots were pulling out of dive bombing runs either too energetically or not releasing the bombs early enough.

[Yo-Yo]

yep, eliptical wings gave better turn rate

but clipped wings gave better roll rate (catching up roll rate of focke-wulf)

 

i would like to see spits with both wing shapes :thumbsup:

 

I am afraid that somebody will ask an option to switch between wing types during a sortie...

[Paradox]

I am afraid that somebody will ask an option to switch between wing types during a sortie...

 

A bit like the Bearcat with its exploding wingtip "safety" feature that I don't think made it onto production Bearcats

 

:lol:

[MiloMorai]

A bit like the Bearcat with its exploding wingtip "safety" feature that I don't think made it onto production Bearcats

 

:lol:

 

They did.

 

One problem that became evident in service was the snap-off wing tips not working as expected. While they worked well under carefully controlled conditions in flight and on the ground, in the field, where aircraft were repetitively stressed by landing on carriers and since the wings were slightly less carefully made in the factories, there was a possibility that only one wingtip would break away with the possibility of the aircraft crashing. This was replaced with an explosives system to blow the wing tips off together, which also worked well, but this ended when a ground technician died due to an accidental triggering.

[Talisman_VR]

All these gifts:

 

Faster level speed.

Faster acceleration.

Faster dive.

Faster roll rate (all altitudes).

Stronger wings by removal of wingtips, permitting higher IAS to be used.

Continued decent turn advantage over opposition.

A more agile fighter overall in comparison to standard wing Spitfire.

Trial dog-fights conducted against a standard wing Spit at low level were won by the clip wing Spit.

 

With a slight reduction in turn, but still a WINNING turn performance, and people want to say no thanks :lol:

Am I reading the correct forum? People saying they actually want an aircraft with less performance for combat :helpsmilie:

No, it cannot be :megalol:

But, yes, it is.

There's now't stranger than folk. The things people do for looks :(

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

[Kurfürst]

With a slight reduction in turn, but still a WINNING turn performance, and people want to say no thanks :lol:

Am I reading the correct forum? People saying they actually want an aircraft with less performance for combat :helpsmilie:

No, it cannot be :megalol:

But, yes, it is.

There's now't stranger than folk. The things people do for looks :(

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

Yet for some reason actual WW2 RAF Spitfire pilots were not all that enthusiastic about the clipped wing variant. The modificiation was supposed to counter the Fw 190s great superiority in roll, yet it practice it just didn't bring the plane on par with the 190, but at the same time degraded its best advantages over it.

 

It was niche modification, that's get hyped all over whereas in reality it did not see much use in operations due to its overall impracticality, except where structural issues with the wing while carrying bombs necessitated it.

[Reflected]

Yet for some reason actual WW2 RAF Spitfire pilots were not all that enthusiastic about the clipped wing variant. The modification was supposed to counter the Fw 190s great superiority in roll, yet it practice it just didn't bring the plane on par with the 190, but at the same time degraded its best advantages over it.

.

 

Precisely. I remember reading just the same in Pierre Clostermann`s "Le Grande Cirque". These Spits earned their nickname "clipped, cropped, clapped". The RAF pilots weren`t happy with the results at all.

 

Quite understandably so. Imagine you are facing the 190. You have the option to sit in a plane that is not as fast, and rolls worse, but can easily outturn it. Or option b: you have a plane that is almost as fast, and rolls almost as well as the 190 (still worse though), but now you can`t even outturn it?

Edited February 11, 2016 by Reflected