ANNOUNCEMENT - DCS: MiG-21bis

[rajdary]

Thanks for the post Dolphin887, i think most of us, although we are rather impatient, will understand perfectly well, so i think the only thing we can do to support your work and any future development is buying the module once its out. Ill do just that.

Thanks again.

[Kenan]

No, ridiculousness is what caused the delay in the first place. Although, if you really don't want the module, and wish to complain further, you are more than welcome to give me your pre-order key and lower your personal stress level by not having to concern yourself with the matter further.

 

Well, sorry for complaining. It was really uncalled for. I don't know what was I thinking. I've been waiting for it barely a year or so, what a ungrateful brat I am.

 

I'd count on the "delay", if it actually should be considered one, to be similar in duration to the lost time and productivity that stemmed from the events that caused the publishing house to change hands. It took from the middle of January, until the end of February, before the legal situation for Leatherneck Studios was such to continue their efforts.

 

That's not a delay- that's reality. If Cobra and Co. aren't forced to deal with what amounted to a very public temper tantrum, the original deadline is met. Instead, valuable time, energy, and resources had to be spent doing everything but working on the module. If Leatherneck can release within a shorter window, that's an honest to God miracle (and is what Cobra seems to be implying), and is not worthy of ridicule or complaint, but respect.

What you just wrote pretty much sounds like a spin. So somehow it's normal to keep on waiting and rationalize it untill the actual release and people who "complain" are somehow in the wrong. In the end, the rest of us are to be blamed for simply not having an..understanding for yet, as it seems, another delay?

 

Clearly, there is a contingent here who thinks these things exist and are built in a vacuum, and that any example of reality rearing its head, even with a very realistic schedule, is some form of disrespect or failure. Life happens.

Yes, but this shouldn't apply to never ending projects which are kept being delayed. Most of us here know the "reality" of working on a project and hickups that might occur along the way. But if something is being delayed over and over again, I don't think we should be finding excuses for it, no matter how "justified".. There's a point where just call it what it is - a failure to deliver i.e. an incompetence. I don't care why, how etc. You FAILED to deliver and that's pretty much it.

 

But then, the same people b*ing ad nauseum over delays would be doubly angry if one hair on the pilot model's head were out of alignment in the eventual release. Such is the way of the world.

Most of us here would be happy with a solid product and wouldn't mind minor bugs (those are usually fixed along the way) and certainly very few people would complain about "hair on the pilot' model's head". Edited March 25, 2014 by Kenan

[Paradox]

Guys,

 

you all have right to be disappointed. Pretty much how we felt just a months ago, for two months. The whole project was at stake, and situation was serious. Bottom line is we received support from legal parties included in this project, most importantly TFC and Eagle Dynamics, finally resulting in granted licence from ED, for which we are thankful. On the other side, we lost two months and we knew we have to rebuild our reputation not from the scratch but from negative initial position. Very hard and unpleasant, but necessary and normal.

 

We won't meet the given release date, we admitted that and we are not hiding it.

 

You will get your long waited aircraft; we simply need time to finish mostly boring and administrative things (tutorials, missions, campaign, manual, promo things etc.). We are extremely sorry for this, and there is nothing we can do to accelerate this process except to stay focused and continue to work.

 

If MiG-21Bis lost some of you along the way it was just it's destiny. We are doing our best, and want you to have it. At the end, it is 21 last chance to ever be re-created. I honestly don't think that aircraft will ever be done at this level for any home or military class flight simulator.

 

My personal thanks to people who understand our situation. Once we release, our common troubles will be forgotten.

 

I am very sorry that you felt you had to make that post Dolphin, I'm quite aghast at the behaviour of some people in this thread and I hope that the guys at Leatherneck trust that the vast majority of us are still very supportive of the project and of you guys personally.

 

Just settle down some of you guys, really.

[Buzzles]

I am very sorry that you felt you had to make that post Dolphin, I'm quite aghast at the behaviour of some people in this thread and I hope that the guys at Leatherneck trust that the vast majority of us are still very supportive of the project and of you guys personally.

 

Just settle down some of you guys, really.

 

^^ This. Twofold.

[lunaticfringe]

Well, sorry for complaining. It was really uncalled for. I don't know what was I thinking. I've been waiting for it barely a year or so, what a ungrateful brat I am.

 

Actually, you are, because LS is under zero legal obligation to give you a copy of their work. Preorders and the IndieGoGo died with Beczl. That they're even willing to consider it is deserving of respect, when they could have simply walked away, or required new payment in full for *all* users.

 

That is reality. That is the legal, honest to goodness reality under which this project is operating, and the simple fact that you are more than happy to berate people who are offering you a product at no actual cost to you from their firm is a sign of child-like petulance, when they have not set one date.

 

Not one. I would invite any of you to show me a date, not set by Beczl, not made and squandered by Laszlo- Leatherneck.

 

What you just wrote pretty much sounds like a spin. So somehow it's normal to keep on waiting and rationalize it untill the actual release and people who "complain" are somehow in the wrong.

 

Oh, but you state not one paragraph forward that "we all have an idea of how projects work and things happen"- you, and everyone else rationalize to your customers, but you've got a problem with this?

 

Yes, but this shouldn't apply to never ending projects which are kept being delayed. Most of us here know the "reality" of working on a project and hickups that might occur along the way.

 

Code is a hiccup. New legal and business entities are anything but hiccups.

 

But if something is being delayed over and over again, I don't think we should be finding excuses for it, no matter how "justified".. There's a point where just call it what it is - a failure to deliver i.e. an incompetence. I don't care why, how etc. You FAILED to deliver and that's pretty much it.

 

Incompetent? Really?

 

Fine- I will put my money where my mouth is: either you, or q800 wish to PM me and forward a copy of your receipt for the IndieGoGo, I will buy you out from your license; all you have to do is forward LS confirmation of this, along with my account tag to modify the purchase to. And I will buy another copy of it upon release.

 

I have watched the feeds, and noted both the quality of the model, the clear and apparent work on the FM, and the overall passion shown by this group for the subject matter. Honestly- if you find the measure of work and management on this project since February 27th of this year incompetent, you'll be best served punching out.

 

Most of us here would be happy with a solid product and wouldn't mind minor bugs (those are usually fixed along the way) and certainly very few people would complain about "hair on the pilot' model's head".

 

Aren't you the guy who's antsy over ground handling on non-AFM aircraft? :lol:

[Kenan]

Actually, you are, because LS is under zero legal obligation to give you a copy of their work. Preorders and the IndieGoGo died with Beczl. That they're even willing to consider it is deserving of respect, when they could have simply walked away, or required new payment in full for *all* users.

 

That is reality. That is the legal, honest to goodness reality under which this project is operating, and the simple fact that you are more than happy to berate people who are offering you a product at no actual cost to you from their firm is a sign of child-like petulance, when they have not set one date.

 

Not one. I would invite any of you to show me a date, not set by Beczl, not made and squandered by Laszlo- Leatherneck.

 

The moment Leatherneck decided to take over the project or at least, if they were working on it since the begining, once Bezcl got out of the picture, officialy taken over, means they do have an obligation, if not legal, then moral, to the people who pledged their money, who have waited and still wait for this long and which are, as you put it, expressing their "child-like petulance" for being dissapointed by another hint of possible delay. It's how business works. And the release date was set for late march and confirmed by Cobra so I don't know what point are you desperately trying to make? To most customers here it doesn't matter if the date was set by Beczl or LN or if LN had to "inherit" it. I don't care about the politics, I want to see things get done.

 

Oh, but you state not one paragraph forward that "we all have an idea of how projects work and things happen"- you, and everyone else rationalize to your customers, but you've got a problem with this?

Again: there's a difference between delays which might occur during the development of a project and a project which is simply failing to deliver and which takes forever. That's how business works. There's no simpler way of putting it.

 

Code is a hiccup. New legal and business entities are anything but hiccups.

Customers don't care about shades of grey. Where is my MiG-21?

 

Incompetent? Really?

 

Fine- I will put my money where my mouth is: either you, or q800 wish to PM me and forward a copy of your receipt for the IndieGoGo, I will buy you out from your license; all you have to do is forward LS confirmation of this, along with my account tag to modify the purchase to. And I will buy another copy of it upon release.

Are you trying to pull some sort of a nigerian businessman scam on me?

 

I have watched the feeds, and noted both the quality of the model, the clear and apparent work on the FM, and the overall passion shown by this group for the subject matter. Honestly- if you find the measure of work and management on this project since February 27th of this year incompetent, you'll be best served punching out.

And what do I have from all of that? Are they competent? Yes. Does the module look great? Yes. The work done on it is amazing? Yes. The passion they invested in it is huge. That is all great but in the end, right now, in reality, putting the kool aid drink aside, I really have very little use of those facts if I, as many other folks, keep on waiting, keep on getting bits and pieces of info but having no idea how many more weeks, possibly months we will have to wait to see the module released.

 

Aren't you the guy who's antsy over ground handling on non-AFM aircraft? :lol:

Yes I am. I know I was out of line about that. After all, current landing physics in FC3 are perfect and need no tweaking. And not as if ED themselves initially said they will improve it and in the end, they basically didn't. It was all in my head. Edited March 26, 2014 by Kenan

[lunaticfringe]

It's how business works.

 

Business exists on the legal- not the moral. They can choose to operate on moral grounds or no. And in this instance, having not received the investment dollars, a moral position would in fact be to require repayment. IndieGoGo participants invested in someone else's management that failed.

 

And the release date was set for late march and confirmed by Cobra so I don't know what point are you desperately trying to make?

 

I will direct your attention to the same as q800 was directed- post one of this thread. See a release date?

 

That's the point. The only mention of a timeframe came from Cobra at the start of the issue with Laszlo; clearly, as has been stated here, production in full stopped for a period. Subsequently, when LS moved to continue, their first- *first* announcement to the public, was that in light of the circumstances they could not meet the timeframe, but would be close.

 

What you have is a gripe against a timetable that someone else made and threw away. When Leatherneck- not Beczl sets a date and misses it, then you will have a grievance. Until then, nada.

 

Are you trying to pull some sort of a nigerian businessman scam on me?

 

No, I'm attempting to remove at least one whiner from the equation. Same reason I invest in good Adblock extensions and anti-virus.

 

keep on getting bits and pieces of info but having no idea how many more weeks, possibly months we will have to wait to see the module released.

 

Bits and pieces? Today's update was bits and pieces? Everything system required for release in place, AFM complete, all down to the polish. And that's not a substantial update?

 

It's as I say- you can't be pleased.

 

Yes I am. I know I was out of line about that. After all, current landing physics in FC3 are perfect and need no tweaking. And not as if ED themselves initially said they will improve it and in the end, they basically didn't. It was all in my head.

 

Because it's better that they spend their time working on simple models, rather than AFMs. Gotcha.

[Mike Busutil]

I don't see a problem with some people expressing that they are upset or unhappy. It's a public forum to discuss a product. Both pros and cons should be allowed to be discussed. Post should not be deleted just because they have a complaint or disagreement...

 

I for one very much look forward to the release.

[smnwrx]

I check this site everyday. DCS is my favorite sim. I want to see it grow and support every product I can afford. When I log on and see a delay of coarse I'm disapointed. When I hear project are possibly canceled I am really disapointed. Still, I find that as soon as I move on to the next web site or turn off the computer my disappointment fades and life goes on. Always supporting the next DCS product whenever it comes out.

[statrekmike]

Has there been any delay beyond the one that we already knew about from the very first Leatherneck announcement post?

 

I mean, some here seem up in arms about a delay but I have not seen anything that we have not already known about for a good long while now.

 

From what I can gather, we are not looking at a long delay, I don't understand why some folks are making a fuss right now.

[xxJohnxx]

From what I can gather, we are not looking at a long delay, I don't understand why some folks are making a fuss right now.

 

Well because they are angry about delays that where due to reasons they can't understand.

[159th_Viper]

Actually, you are, because LS is under zero legal obligation to give you a copy of their work. Preorders and the IndieGoGo died with Beczl.

 

Incorrect.

 

Apologies for not discussing the legalities with you but there exists a very real cause-of-action, fortuitously enough through Leatherneck's own admission, amongst others. So don't labour under the misapprehension that things are being done 'out of the goodness of their hearts'. Rather out of necessity I would say.

 

Don't attempt to portray Beczl as the bad guy here: Not the time nor the place.

[badger66]

Because we dont know the full story on all that happened, nor is this the place to discuss it.

 

Exactly ..... so would the cribbers please STFU ..... listen to yourselves FFS ..... nobody knows what went on except the involved partys , so ye don't even know what yer talking about !

[JaNk0]

All right, let us just calm down for a second before someone gets banned or threads get deleted. Didn't want to get involved but standing on the sideline throughout the discussions got me a more objective perspective on things. First of all, I understand Kenan and other people that are tired of "endless" waiting because of delays. I felt it too, I am not denying it. I also understand why some stand up for LS when reading negative posts, they are showing progress in their work which is getting closer and closer to completion. Now, I am not taking any sides here, just want to remind you that despite all our different opinions we should still respect each other instead of starting some sorts of flame war here. Can't say I know exactly how easy or tough it is to meet project deadlines but considering the rather long period when the project was on hold, it would only be logical for the project to be delayed.

 

Just my two cents..

Edited March 26, 2014 by JaNk0

[Kenan]

No, I'm attempting to remove at least one whiner from the equation. Same reason I invest in good Adblock extensions and anti-virus.

 

Whining by definition would be complaining without a real reason, usually without having to wait for a specific timeframe and doing it right away.

 

You're calling many of the folks here "whiners" for not being happy with further delays and who have invested their money to back the project and also want them to "opt out" out of their investment simply because they don't share your views? You may try to "ad-block" them and call them "viruses" simply because their views are not aligned with yours but that is I guess something you will have to deal with on your own.

 

If I was to make a comparison, I'd say you're acting like a politican trying to spin an everlasting failure to deliver into a some sort of a success and those who disagree with you are what, like, enemies of the state? And I'm not very found of politicians. In general.

 

Further on, It's not like the project started 3 months ago and we're required to show more patience. Long enough time has passed to give us all a genuine right to "complain" and ask what's going on - as that is the basically the only thing we can do from our side of the fence. You obviously don't understand that or simply choose to give us a "high from above" preaching how we all in the wrong for even trying to question the progress so far. And that is very unfair (if not offending) to the lots of the backers here.

 

If you're happy with the current situation - good for you! If you are willing to wait for another 3-6 months or so with an endless "understanding" of a delayed project and treat it as a "quirks of running a business", great. But don't try to sell that kool aid / snake oil to the rest of us.

[Cobra847]

Enough.

 

Lets' bring it down a notch guys. We can all discuss, be angry or disappointed about a delay without getting into heated arguments.

We all have our own point of view, and everyone has their right to one.

 

Sorry for the delay -- not much more to say. I wish I could turn back time and not announce a date.

Hopefully you'll still be around when we launch and enjoy the aircraft. I sincerely hope so.

 

Incorrect.

 

Apologies for not discussing the legalities with you but there exists a very real cause-of-action, fortuitously enough through Leatherneck's own admission, amongst others. So don't labour under the misapprehension that things are being done 'out of the goodness of their hearts'. Rather out of necessity I would say.

 

Don't attempt to portray Beczl as the bad guy here: Not the time nor the place.

 

Completely incorrect.

 

We have absolutely no legal obligations to the entity known as Studio Beczl or the IndieGoGo backers.

 

The loss in revenue for compensating the backers in full is coming out of our pocket.

 

The motivation for doing so is not associated with any necessities, obligations or external pressure.

It is our own, and it is a modest token of appreciation for the communities support and trust.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Cobra847

[Wolf Rider]

"DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed" will be the first independent 3rd party module for the best DCS simulator game. This new module development is based on the new 3rd party License agreement/support that was previously announced by TFC/Eagle Dynamics. I plan to release MiG-21Bis later in 2012.

 

The MiG-21Bis is considered a third-generation, supersonic, jet fighter. It's avionics equipment ensures day and night operations in fair and poor weather conditions. Some 50 countries over four continents have flown the MiG-21, and it still serves many nations a half-century after its maiden flight. The MiG-21 broke a number of aviation records and it is still the most produced supersonic jet aircraft in aviation history.

 

"DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed" includes both Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground capabilities that includes various conventional weapons like missiles, rockets, bombs, and a built in 23mm cannon. "DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed" will also use less widely known weapons such as some advanced air-to-surface guided missiles, retarded and general purpose bombs, and some special devices.

 

 

Features of the "DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed":

 

• Highly detailed six-degrees-of-freedom cockpit with dynamic shadows. Interact with cockpit controls with your mouse like previous DCS products.

• Accurate airframe and realistic 3D cockpit model.

• Detailed modeling of the MiG-21Bis instruments, navigation, electrical, radar, engine, fuel, and weapon systems.

• Russian and English cockpit texts and hints

 

• Improved and more realistic airplane behaviors that are based on real MiG-21Bis pilot tests and instruction.

• More than a twenty high detailed aircraft skin with unique stencil texts.

• More than a dozen new deliverable weapon.

 

"DCS: MiG-21Bis Fishbed” is developed by Laszlo 'beczl' Becz in association with The Fighter Collection and Eagle Dynamics. Further information will be provided as development progresses.

 

You can find further info on the Project Webpage.

 

The Project in good state if you can check the project webpage above but I'm a one man team so all of these things made only by me without any supporter. This cause to I need some additional fund to finalize the project. I need a fund to pay the DRM protection, video and sound producing also need to pay a better texture artist than me to improve the airplane presence and outer and inner textures as well.

 

P.S: The paypal transer changed from my account to my wife account due paypal frozen my account. They need to be check to identity to comply with European Union Anti-Money Laundering regulations.

 

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/dcs-mig-21bis-fishbed

 

 

 

I tend to agree, based on the indiegogo, that no responsibility exists to honour the pledges... however, TFC and ED are inadvertently(?) dragged into it "by association", I'm also hoping that this situation isn't the beginning of a new trend. People are going to be so wary about investing via indiegogo/ kickstarter in the future.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Wolf Rider

[c84]

just makes me wonder how many times has been release postponed™?3,4,5 times?

[GeorgeLKMT]

just makes me wonder how many times has been release postponed™?3,4,5 times?

 

As far as I remember, once. And if you read the first post of this thread, they had very good reasons for that. This thread is starting to feel like a broken record that plays over and over that plays over and over that plays over and over.... ;)

[outlawal2]

just makes me wonder how many times has been release postponed™?3,4,5 times?

 

If you actually read the thread you will see ONCE

[lunaticfringe]

Apologies for not discussing the legalities with you but there exists a very real cause-of-action, fortuitously enough through Leatherneck's own admission, amongst others.

 

You'll have to excuse me, but I'll take the knowledge from those engaged with honoring the legal requirements of the handover over your *opinion* any, and every, day of the week.

 

Laszlo may not be a bad guy at all- but it is indeed amusing how he is getting away without a commiserate level of headache from the community. Even in his absence, people could show their frustration.

 

Consider mine the same as q800's stated for Leatherneck.

[lunaticfringe]

If you actually read the thread you will see ONCE

 

I believe he was being /sarc.

 

And that is really what is so fascinating- old messenger, and project manager splits. Instead of cutting the new guy any bit of slack, or granting them the opportunity to honor their own stated timeframe (which hasn't been stated yet), they're moving to cut him off at the neck.

 

We've got people who don't read very clear statements of timeframe and position. People who don't read updates. People who don't read concise, yet very clear, statements of legality and instead want to play television trial lawyer. All of this, when Leatherneck's positioning has been quite consistent on the matter.

 

People were ready to jump of bridges in January- now they're ready to throw LS off one for not meeting a non-existent, never stated (on their part) deadline.

 

Fascinating.

Edited March 26, 2014 by lunaticfringe

[statrekmike]

I just think all the talk about delays is pretty interesting, I mean, it looks like we will not be waiting for a long time anyway, they may not have stated a specific date but Cobra did correct someone when they said it would take two months or more, calling it a "exaggeration".

 

Combine that with the recent mini-update and I can't help but feel optimistic, it sounds like the heavy lifting is done and now all that remains is the final touches and business side stuff.

 

Not sure why some folks here are so upset over a delay that may not even be a big deal at all.

 

Perhaps I am a optimist but one does not need to pay too much attention to see that things are moving along pretty well, I have no doubt that Cobra and the rest of the Leathernecks team will deliver the MiG-21Bis with only a small delay.

[Nefron]

The delays are disappointing, but I do believe that they will come through in the end, hopefully soon.

 

I just find it odd that we don't get more videos or screenshots, if the project is in its final phase. It shouldn't be that hard to record a video during testing, and it would alleviate any doubts people have about the final product.

[Cobra847]

The delays are disappointing, but I do believe that they will come through in the end, hopefully soon.

 

I just find it odd that we don't get more videos or screenshots, if the project is in its final phase. It shouldn't be that hard to record a video during testing, and it would alleviate any doubts people have about the final product.

 

The next update revolves around the first video in a series.