DCS : F4U-1 Corsair

[Krupi]

36 minutes ago, Bowie said:

 

The most disturbing thing about this is the sycophantic defense of a poor business practice.

 

"Relax, we are building your house."

 

Eight years later - "You don't understand, and it's wrong to question."

 

Why?

 

No one - is asking for anything but common courtesy, and adults know that it will be ready when it's ready.

 

And again, administrative threats - are a poor substitute for argument in the arena of ideas.

 

 

 

 

Bowie

 

 

How many people do you know who have had a house been built with no money exchanging hands before building starts… come back with a better retort or better yet just don’t come back at all.

Patience is a virtue, add it to your repertoire and you will be all the better for it

Edited March 19 by Krupi

[Bowie]

44 minutes ago, Krupi said:

How many people do you know who have had a house been built with no money exchanging hands before building starts… come back with a better retort or better yet just don’t come back at all.

Patience is a virtue, add it to your repertoire and you will be all the better for it

 

 

Believing you can tell Adults what to do - is part of the adolescent sycophantic behavior mentioned.

 

Not understanding the poor business practice coupled with poor reading for content skills only reinforces that.

 

If you are interested in an example of better business practices?

 

Suggest that you look at the 2023 End of Year Development Report - A-7E Corsair II  , as an example.

 

EDIT: Have read the magnitude-3.com/2023/11/04/2023-annual-update/ , and it was excellent.

 

Will remain on this thread, and look forward to this module's development and release.

 

You, may do as you please.

 

 

Bowie

Edited March 20 by Bowie

[Rick50]

 

I feel like we have beaten this horse well past expiration,  it's now just mush to be washed away in the rain...

But...  this is not really like building a house. At all. 

99.9999999999999% of houses are built using the same cookie cutter designs, materials and techniques. Sure, European houses are slightly different from those in Japan, slightly different from North America... and African houses and huts are a bit different still. But none of these are unproven bleeding edge tech. It's the same as all the rest in your town or city.

Ok, there are some amazing one-off's being designed for extremely unique experiences, or for brand new-ish sustainable designs, either Net Zero, or Rammed Earth variants, or passive heating/cooling designs. But really, even those could be made by a good competent experienced home builder company, as long as there is solid input from the architect to help ensure the new unique bits are done properly.

Programming a full  fidelity module for DCS though... I think it's a dive into the unknown. It certainly seems that way, even for experienced dev teams that have had success in the past, the past success isn't a guarantee of success in future... and it seems to me to not help  at all at guessing it's release date. Look at the Phantom... wasn't long ago that people were debating a January or Feb release, but now it's slipping another 2 weeks. Even right at the finish line! 

No excuses, I'm just wishing Magnitude 3 the very best at crossing the finish line, whenever that might happen!

 

 

 

[billythebassman]

2 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Someone here forgets that the AH-64, F-16C and the Mig-29.... were claimed as modules by ED, back in the days of Ka-50 / A-10C, more than 12 years ago.

No we don't.  That's why we're concerned. 

The facts are that these developers have said that this Corsair was  "close to release" quite a few times over the past eight years.  Are we asked to wait another four years and then be told the project wasn't feasible, or worse...told nothing.

Let's keep in mind that this is a problem that takes about one minute to solve.  Apparently they're not interested.

[Silver_Dragon]

8 hours ago, billythebassman said:

No we don't.  That's why we're concerned. 
The facts are that these developers have said that this Corsair was  "close to release" quite a few times over the past eight years.  Are we asked to wait another four years and then be told the project wasn't feasible, or worse...told nothing.
Let's keep in mind that this is a problem that takes about one minute to solve.  Apparently they're not interested.

The "close for release" coming the times as magnitude 3, was they was leatherneck, when anounced the F4U.... Before the 3rd Party was split on parts, and the Main develop team form Heatblur, get only four cats on leatherneck..... And forming Magnitude 3 with the rest...

Your "minute" was explain on the last newletter on nov 2023.

https://magnitude-3.com/2023/11/04/2023-annual-update/

Develop continue to complete the module, nothing more. When ED put the oficial newletter and the preorder (or not), we can Talk about a release date. Meanwhile, has a dead Horse.

Enviado desde mi CPH2197 mediante Tapatalk
 

Edited March 20 by Silver_Dragon

[Hammer1-1]

8 hours ago, Bowie said:

Reasonable expectations and honesty.

 

Sit in a restaurant, handed a menu, and told by the waiter that they will be right back.

 

"Two Weeks."

 

Sure it's a joke, but hearing it every two weeks would be honest.

 

Not liking what others think about it is a whole nother problem.

 

 

Bowie

 

This isnt a restaraunt; its a labor of love. No, this is more akin to having a house built by the developer, the developer paid for it at his own cost up front, and you happen to live in the neighborhood looking to buy it...but pi5sed off that you cant look inside nor the foreman wants to talk to you about when it will be done. You literally havent put a deposit down for that house, so you dont have a leg to stand on when it comes to complaining about it.

Edited March 20 by Hammer1-1

[Lionel Mandrake]

On 3/19/2024 at 6:30 PM, Hammer1-1 said:

You know what isnt welcome around here? Incessant whining about things they cant control. How they do business is THEIR business much like how you do business is YOUR business. You go put out a 3rd party module and then maybe you have a right to criticize. But you are under no obligation to tell anyone how to run their business. Why are you still here? 

You've described a forum where no one can say anything as their respective opinions are only a matter for themselves.

Also nice what-about-ism. No I haven't made a 3rd party module, I'm not a michelin star chef either but I could tell one his chicken is undercooked. 

Patience has it's limits, I'm not being abusive or crass. Merely stating that the lack of communication regarding a LONG awaited module is ridiculous. It's unreasonable to say just be patient after 8 years when you throw terrible communication into the mix. One only needs to look at HB for an example of how to communicate with your customer base, particularly after a setback.

 

As someone else has now said this problem is very easily fixed.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

2 hours ago, Lionel Mandrake said:

You've described a forum where no one can say anything as their respective opinions are only a matter for themselves.

Also nice what-about-ism. No I haven't made a 3rd party module, I'm not a michelin star chef either but I could tell one his chicken is undercooked. 

Patience has it's limits, I'm not being abusive or crass. Merely stating that the lack of communication regarding a LONG awaited module is ridiculous. It's unreasonable to say just be patient after 8 years when you throw terrible communication into the mix. One only needs to look at HB for an example of how to communicate with your customer base, particularly after a setback.

 

As someone else has now said this problem is very easily fixed.

Yes, and no. I believe someone probably mentioned yet, but the real inner and huge problem is expectations. The second anybody says anything is under development, or they're trying to, the second some people (we can't blame everybody for that) is eagerly awaiting for whatever it is, and some of them get really insistent about the subject, with crazy arguments like "I'm awaiting since ever", "this is never gonna happen", "they don't deliver as -promised-", and so, and so, and so on. But those people don't realize those and false arguments, telling people somebody is developing anything doesn't mean they will reach their goal, at all (we've seen that with many third parties, many, no longer existing, do you recall some third party was gonna develop a Super Hornet even before the legacy Hornet we have now? no? that's it), they plan to, they'd like to, but sometimes it just isn't feasible for whatever reason, their resources, their team, their budget, or just insurmountable problems they face at some point. AND those expectations are really bad, they become "promises" nobody made in the first place, they become even almost paranoid ideas about teams no longer developing whatever it is, "they've ditched it but they wouldn't tell", and even worse. Do I have to recall some third parties have even disappeared due to those crazy ideas spread? third parties and their teams are humans after all, they aren't impervious to wild, constant criticism, not just here, in here mods and some of us try to chill the thing (because we've seen so much in here, don't get me wrong, we aren't in ED's payroll, but sincerely it's exhausting), but go to Reddit were ED's mods can't do a thing about it, or whatever the external source it is. Those people, while saying they only care and worry about DCS and it's benefit, are really harmful in the end to third party teams and to ED themselves. I haven't paid a thing yet, I've only seen a few screenshots and small videos I like and are nice, I want the module badly of course, but I don't feel myself entitled to demand anyone, third party or not, to finish a damn tough job like making a module is because I'd like to see it in-game right now, or yesterday better. Third parties are humans like me, they bleed when punctured, they suffer with harsh criticism, why would I want them to feel bad about the hard work they embarked in? They're already aware about the timings and the time they've already spent developing a module to the nut, and I haven't bought a thing to the day. Why the wild criticism? is it gonna finish sooner with it? I bet no, perhaps the opposite…

Heatblur case is a different kettle of fish, they've already taken people's money (mine for sure) for a module they promised, or kind of, for a date they couldn't fulfil in the end. Ok, fine for me, I won't change my mind and I want Phantom badly, if it takes a few more weeks to finish and polish it the way they mean it to be great, why would I critique them for trying to do their best and deliver what they feel people who paid are ought to? It's great from their part, of course it is, but they had a commitment due to the pre-sale being already there, they had to. On the other hand, M3 haven't charge a penny from anyone yet, not mine for sure, they don't have to deliver and fulfil any promise already made because there is no promise, yet they're still a rather small team (I believe it still is) and if they were here speaking and all, on top of creating even more hype and expectations, while they write here they wouldn't be working on the module, which not only is a module but a huge assets pack and all together with it. I have no problem in letting them work on their goal, releasing a great module, and I'm sure in the end they'll gonna make it sooner than later and crush expectations. But releasing a great module takes time… and this one is huge… Since I haven't bought anything yet and I'm only waiting patiently I feel no urge to demand them a thing. Why some people do? I wouldn't know. Just let them work… Patience mates… patience…

 

P.S.: the 8 years wait said by some people is just false, there might be mentions to it, intentions, but that's not 8 years of development time whatsoever, so why some people want to feel like they're waiting since 8 years ago, I wouldn't know.

to recall something, Hornet was gonna be "the next module" after A-10C in 2010, but it happened only a few years ago due to the need for many things, a formal contract with the builder, lots of information, and a platform that allows you to have all the features they wanted the module to have. That's a wait mate, knowing they were trying to get a Hornet module but couldn't deliver yet due to the lacks in the platform we call now DCSW. Yet it's here in it's full glory now despite they had to change game and graphics engine twice or thrice in the meantime, and we're heading towards a fourth engine core change which will allow even greater things. Great things take time. Patience mates, patience…

Edited March 20 by Ala13_ManOWar

[Hammer1-1]

7 hours ago, Lionel Mandrake said:

You've described a forum where no one can say anything as their respective opinions are only a matter for themselves.

Also nice what-about-ism. No I haven't made a 3rd party module, I'm not a michelin star chef either but I could tell one his chicken is undercooked. 

Patience has it's limits, I'm not being abusive or crass. Merely stating that the lack of communication regarding a LONG awaited module is ridiculous. It's unreasonable to say just be patient after 8 years when you throw terrible communication into the mix. One only needs to look at HB for an example of how to communicate with your customer base, particularly after a setback.

 

As someone else has now said this problem is very easily fixed.

Easily fixed? Yes. Totally unnecessary? Yes. While I want to agree with you here, you arent losing anything. You certainly can tell the chef its undercooked, but you still have to put your order in, but it also implies that theres a try before you buy period on whether or not you buy it due to something you dont like. The only thing you've lost is patience and you can certainly storm out of the restaraunt and make a scene, but you aint making that chicken come out any faster.

Edited March 20 by Hammer1-1

[Lionel Mandrake]

To be perfectly clear, I'm not demanding that they hurry up and release the module (despite my feelings that 8 years is an enormous amount of time). The almost complete lack of communication and community engagement plus a contemptuous "you'll get what you get, when we give it to you and that's the end of discussion" attitude isn't acceptable, particularly when from the people trying to sell a product. It's an easy fix, it needs not be more complicated than that.

 

It also does M3 no favours to be so quiet, it leads to rumours and innuendo and it's hard to blame people for calling this project Vaporware, when the devs themselves are barely visible, some what akin to vapour.

[Hiob]

6 minutes ago, Lionel Mandrake said:

particularly when from the people trying to sell a product.

so far they didn’t try to sell anything, there’s no listing or price. Pre-order or otherwise….. 

Personally, I‘d love to see energy supply by fusion reactors. It‘s only 10 years away now … for fifty years now. Unfortunately there’s nothing I can do about it - so bitching about it would be a waste of energy. 

[Lionel Mandrake]

33 minutes ago, Hiob said:

so far they didn’t try to sell anything, there’s no listing or price. Pre-order or otherwise….. 

Personally, I‘d love to see energy supply by fusion reactors. It‘s only 10 years away now … for fifty years now. Unfortunately there’s nothing I can do about it - so bitching about it would be a waste of energy. 

Completely disingenuous to suggest that they aren't trying to sell a Corsair module.

[Hiob]

11 minutes ago, Lionel Mandrake said:

Completely disingenuous to suggest that they aren't trying to sell a Corsair module.

so far!

Please enlighten me on how exactly are they trying to sell you a module at this point in time? There’s no means by which you could part ways with your money if you wanted too…… 

[Lionel Mandrake]

1 hour ago, Hiob said:

so far!

Please enlighten me on how exactly are they trying to sell you a module at this point in time? There’s no means by which you could part ways with your money if you wanted too…… 

 

21 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Disingenuous? No, when they start putting up a purchase, EA or otherwise, for the corsair, they aren't selling anything to you. They aren't obligated to do anything for us, and the sooner you figure that out the happier we all are.

Pfft. Where's my napalm? I want my Mk77. Where's my tactical can of artificial sunshine? Missing my B61. Where's my towed array decoy? The AH64D is barely halfway done too and it's been in devlopment for a whiiiiile.

 

If you honestly don't think the Corsair development isn't a commercial undertaking, whether it's done by enthusiasts or professionals, part time or full time is irrespective. It's obviously being made for them to sell. The sooner you figure that out the happier we'll all be. Stop being belligerent and disingenuous.

[Hammer1-1]

2 hours ago, Bowie said:

 

Adolescent sycophantic defense - is also a poor substitute for argument in the arena of ideas.

 

Eight years... "Two weeks."

 

Suggesting Common Courtesy and Honesty - should not elicit a visceral response.

 

Are you a paid shill?

 

 

 

Why? Are you paid opposition? For someone who hasn't lost anything, you sure act like you have a court case for fraud against a company.

 

The adolescent arguments here are the ones here acting like they have special privileges and the continued acting like true textbook narcissists. Climb off that high horse -or mountain top and join civilization again. Or again, the door isn't far away.

Edited March 21 by Hammer1-1

[Lionel Mandrake]

2 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Again, haven't sold anything yet. Guessing you haven't heard of the VEAO saga with the Hawk T.1A. Research it then come on back and say your opinion stands. I prefer it being finished upon release, and only when it's released should you complain about anything. Have they sold any units yet? Obviously it is a commercial endeavor, but until money changes hand...your input, concerns or feelings dont matter. Nothing stopping you from fleeing the restaurant.

 

Fkn Area 51 and FighterOps all over again here all the sudden.

 

If you think that customers opinions don't matter because no money has changed hands then you are just a belligerent and ignorant person. 

All the reasonable arguments levelled pre release against M3 or any other dev for that matter have centered around increasing trust through more transparent, honest and frequent communication. Nothing more and certainly not difficult.

Sounds like you are perturbed that people disagree with you.

[Hammer1-1]

55 minutes ago, Lionel Mandrake said:

If you think that customers opinions don't matter because no money has changed hands then you are just a belligerent and ignorant person. 

All the reasonable arguments levelled pre release against M3 or any other dev for that matter have centered around increasing trust through more transparent, honest and frequent communication. Nothing more and certainly not difficult.

Sounds like you are perturbed that people disagree with you.

No, I am simply perturbed that me, being a very angry person by default, has to be the voice of reason in this stupid forum of all the places. Aint your ship to run aground. Capice?

Im certain the dev is listening to every word you say. Im certain he'll take your opinion under advisement. Im also certain they dont care. Young lady, meet Mr. Brick Wall here. Im certain you two will have an entertaining and moving conversation with each other. Meanwhile, the rest of us would like to enjoy the casual conversation without the back and forth match.

Edited March 21 by Hammer1-1

[Lionel Mandrake]

15 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

No, I am simply perturbed that me, being a very angry person by default, has to be the voice of reason in this stupid forum of all the places. Aint your ship to run aground. Capice?

Im certain the dev is listening to every word you say. Im certain he'll take your opinion under advisement. Im also certain they dont care. Young lady, meet Mr. Brick Wall here. Im certain you two will have an entertaining and moving conversation with each other. Meanwhile, the rest of us would like to enjoy the casual conversation without the back and forth match.

 

It's not your ship to steer either my dude, only one of us is trying to stop the other from voicing their opinion and that's you my guy.

[BIGNEWY]

Dear all,

I have moderated some of the last comments, if you can not be nice or keep on topic you will get warning points. 

Please read the rules before posting further. 

Try to appreciate that module development is difficult, be supportive of the projects you are interested in, if you do not have the patience for long development we understand but please keep it constructive. 

thank you 

[Silver_Dragon]

Only a Site note: The lasts M3 Updates.

M3 Christmas Update

2023 Annual Update

2024 and Beyond, appears F4-U with PTO Units.

 

[Hayrake YE-ZB]

3 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Dear all,

I have moderated some of the last comments, if you can not be nice or keep on topic you will get warning points. 

Please read the rules before posting further. 

Try to appreciate that module development is difficult, be supportive of the projects you are interested in, if you do not have the patience for long development we understand but please keep it constructive. 

thank you 

BIGNEWY didn’t get the point of the joke, perhaps because he didn’t see the movie. Absolutely no disrespect was intended. Lionel Mandrake was the only sane character in the movie!

 

Edited March 21 by Hayrake YE-ZB

[Art-J]

Business practices from mainstream area of production and distribution don't quite apply in our very specialized and niche software segment.

1) Guys who are crazy about PTO and Corsair will buy it no matter what;

2) Guys who have sub-zero interest in PTO and Corsair will not buy it no matter what;

3) Guys who are possibly so-so maybe kinda sorta half-interested in PTO and Corsair will:

a) wait for release and buy it (or not) only after reading and watching reviews from early adopters;

b) wait 3-4 years to buy it when it's on sale.

In all of these cases, devs' interaction with community in pre-release and pre-preorder phase is irrelevant and unnecessary, as it will not affect aforementioned buying decisions in any way. I agree with Lionel that it would be nice to read more frequent updates on this project, even short ones, but that's my point - it's a "nice to have" item rather than "must have" one and this is where our opinions differ.

Introduction of preorder changes things, obviously, but we're not there yet.

[Rudel_chw]

26 minutes ago, Art-J said:

1) Guys who are crazy about PTO and Corsair will buy it no matter what;

 

I'm not crazy for those, but I will purchase the Corsair no matter what, simply because I truly enjoy learning to fly new aircraft ... and also because I like to support all DCS developers, particularly the smaller teams, that's why I purchased the Christen Eagle even if aerobatics is not my forte, it helped them to develop the Corsair.

It's the same reason I will also purchase the La-7 once its released, even with no proper map or AI units.

 

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

I'm not crazy for those, but I will purchase the Corsair no matter what, simply because I truly enjoy learning to fly new aircraft ... and also because I like to support all DCS developers, particularly the smaller teams, that's why I purchased the Christen Eagle even if aerobatics is not my forte, it helped them to develop the Corsair.

It's the same reason I will also purchase the La-7 once its released, even with no proper map or AI units.

 

Then you are even more supportive than I am!  
I just can‘t bring myself to buy the Christen Eagle….

But I fully embrace the idea behind it!!!

[Hammer1-1]

I have all the modules, campaigns and terrains for that very reason.  I wish the CE was more than what it is...