Why aren't there today any real good joysticks?

[7rooper]

Sure it's a replica of the A-10C stick and throttle but the A-10C uses the same stick as the F-16, and the same (more or less) throttle as the F-15, so saying it's specialized to a single airframe is just not true. Nothing is stopping you from using it with any other military aircraft.

 

I honestly can't see how using a stick that is modeled after a REAL aircraft is somehow worse than using a stick that someone at Saitek or logitech developed that looks like some kind of sci-fi toy that has little to no resemblance to the real deal. I'm not saying they're not good products though, I'm sure they're great, I just don't get the logic you are trying to apply. :P

 

Besides, TM Warthog has far better quality with metal grip and solid switches

[Bucic]

The answer is really simple. There are no good sticks because the bad ones still sell in tens of thousands. That's it.

 

There's also the "Oooh, but a good joystick would have costed trice as much and you wouldn't pay this much, would you?" crap which doesn't help either. To top that, sim websites don't have reviewers capable of properly reviewing a sim joystick. Do we know about problems with Warthog's sticky stick from reviews or from forums? You bet it was forums!

 

So, again, no need to make decent joysticks to make money by the big companies. Your only hope are the new small bussinesses of sim enthusiasts that started emerging recently. Or DIY.

[metalnwood]

Since my youth I am a flight simulation enthousiast. Now being 46, i find someting really disturbing: there simply aren't any good joysticks anymore on the market, or, they are too expensive while still missing key functions...

 

 

 

My flight simming goes back to the sublogic simulator where we didnt use joysticks. Possibly around the same time you found them

 

Then we had the basic joysticks, one buttons, maybe two. Then pc's came along and they started to get a bit more fancy. I too had the MS FFB stick and liked it a lot, it was good for the games that were available at the time. They certainly didnt have the sophistication in sims that they do now.

 

I have had saiteks, logitechs including the 940, CH products, currently the warthog and a number in between.

 

I cant think for the life of me, going back 15 years, what joystick would I rather have than my warthog?

 

Which joystick have you used in the past (I assume you are talking 10+ years ago) that overall is better than anything we have today?

 

I know you mentioned cost, perhaps you dont count the warthog because of it's cost but then the wishlist you want would certainly put any stick made to those specs well more than the hog. I am confused.

[probad]

Besides, TM Warthog has far better quality with metal grip and solid switches

I was not aware that the Warthog has metal grip!

Any Warthog disassembly shows ABS grip with a smattering of pot metal substitutions which is probably actually worse than if they used plastic throughout.

 

And no, when it comes down to it, a metal base is not a metal joystick by any means.

 

Metal is such a vague word, and it appalls me when people review the warthog they don't ask what metal they're trying to sell to you and where they use the metal and whether that really matches the intent of the claims.

People slurping up and propagating scummy marketspeak like that is one of the reasons companies don't feel any need to deliver honest, solid products anymore.

[bxlplk]

Regarding FFB for helicopters: trimming is a foreign concept to me. I use an unplgged sidewinder. It has smooth travel in all directions, no centering force, and enough friction to stay in place if I need to scratch my nose.

 

From my understandings, thats a lot closer to how real helicopter cyclics behave than using FFB with trim.

 

And if it's wrong, I don't care because it feels so right. Definitely give it a try.

Edited February 3, 2016 by bxlplk

[metalnwood]

I was not aware that the Warthog has metal grip!

Any Warthog disassembly shows ABS grip with a smattering of pot metal substitutions which is probably actually worse than if they used plastic throughout.

 

And no, when it comes down to it, a metal base is not a metal joystick by any means.

 

Metal is such a vague word, and it appalls me when people review the warthog they don't ask what metal they're trying to sell to you and where they use the metal and whether that really matches the intent of the claims.

People slurping up and propagating scummy marketspeak like that is one of the reasons companies don't feel any need to deliver honest, solid products anymore.

 

The warthog has two parts the throttle and the stick. Most people are referring to the stick when they say grip. It certainly is metal, not to be confused with plastic.

 

I use engineering plastics and nothing wrong with them but the stick on the hog is metal not plastic.

 

The first time you touch it and it is cold tells you it is not plastic. They are not referring to the base of the stick as metal and leading you to incorrectly believe that the stick is metal. It is metal, not plastic.

 

 

Metal is vague such that it encompasses many different types but it doesnt include plastic.

 

Statements said with such authority should have some experience behind them :) I have no idea where you got the idea the grip is plastic.

 

 

edit. my reply comes off a bit snarky from repeating myself, it wasnt supposed to be.

Edited February 3, 2016 by metalnwood

[cichlidfan]

I was not aware that the Warthog has metal grip!

 

It does.

[probad]

that's terrible, so it's literally all metal except where it matters the most.

[FlightControl]

My flight simming goes back to the sublogic simulator where we didnt use joysticks. Possibly around the same time you found them

 

Then we had the basic joysticks, one buttons, maybe two. Then pc's came along and they started to get a bit more fancy. I too had the MS FFB stick and liked it a lot, it was good for the games that were available at the time. They certainly didnt have the sophistication in sims that they do now.

 

I have had saiteks, logitechs including the 940, CH products, currently the warthog and a number in between.

 

I cant think for the life of me, going back 15 years, what joystick would I rather have than my warthog?

 

Which joystick have you used in the past (I assume you are talking 10+ years ago) that overall is better than anything we have today?

 

I know you mentioned cost, perhaps you dont count the warthog because of it's cost but then the wishlist you want would certainly put any stick made to those specs well more than the hog. I am confused.

 

 

 

I should remove the word 'anymore' to get you out of the confusion.

[Bucic]

that's terrible, so it's literally all metal except where it matters the most.

Objectively your sentence is better than most Warthog reviews on the internet :)

[Mr_Burns]

I thing the console has take much of the need for a joystick and replaced it with a Gamepad, the mouse and keyboard for pretty much every PC game (or Gamepad) meanign the Joystick is in the realm of pretty niche games such as flight sims and space sims.

 

In the good old days, Joysticks were all there was.

 

Im happy with my X-52 basic, sure it doesnt have FFB but it does every plane and space game just fine and was pretty cheap. I would love to own a warthog but I just cant justify it with the amount I use a joystick, I imagine i am not alone hence the market reflects this with the return on investment, demand and hence the range and price of sticks.

 

I like Hegys idea of making replica Throttle and Stick controls for the Warthog base (and his own base). I would probably pay for a decent FFB base and throttle if companies then sold the throttle and stick controls of your choice, maybe if they also had a choice of panels to sit on the throttle so the moving parts are robust and force fed but the rest was ultimately customizable...

[Sokol1_br]

1. Very important: A working force feedback function.

 

VKB was working for his Rudder Pedal RDR Mk.XXII had Force Feedback, but:

 

"Continued development of the pedals Mk-XXII.

There were serious problems with the patent, Microsoft and Immershin paddled by all that you can. It was decided to do the model 22 without forsfidbeka otherwise sue ((( ".

 

Few people will pay ~1000$ for a high end FFB rudder pedal... or a 800$ high end FFB stick...

Edited February 4, 2016 by Sokol1_br

[Bob Denny]

Why aren't there today any real good joysticks?

 

I like the Thrustmaster HOTAS set but the feel is so totally different from the real thing. I have to "man-handle" that thing to maneuver the aircraft. For doing precision work like ILS approaches in wind/turbulence or aerial refueling it's very hard for me (a 3000+ hour pilot of gliders, mostly powered fixed wing, lots of IFR, and some rotary) to make fine-touch or pressure-type control inputs. I suppose I will get used to it, but I worry that I will be ruining my real world flying.

[Shogun0]

I like the Thrustmaster HOTAS set but the feel is so totally different from the real thing. I have to "man-handle" that thing to maneuver the aircraft. For doing precision work like ILS approaches in wind/turbulence or aerial refueling it's very hard for me (a 3000+ hour pilot of gliders, mostly powered fixed wing, lots of IFR, and some rotary) to make fine-touch or pressure-type control inputs. I suppose I will get used to it, but I worry that I will be ruining my real world flying.

 

One thing that has helped me was installing an extension between the base of the joystick and the joystick. It lets you offset the stick counter clock wise for a comfortable resting position, and the additional length allows you to make finer inputs because you aren't fighting that super strong spring.

[BaconSarnie]

I think the lack of decent joysticks is down to everyone dropping flight sims, MS got rid of their teams and everyone else seemed to do the same. Companies thought there was no point producing a product when there isnt really a market for it.

Now you can say "Yes but DCS"

I have been a flight sim buff since my teens, flown most of the greats etc, I was unaware of the existence of DCS until July last year, when I stumbled upon some youtube vidoes by Deephack. I found them by accident whenI was searching for something to move onto when I got bored of Elite Dangerous, saw his Rogue System vids then saw some DCS Mig 21.

Before that I had never heard of it, its not widely advertised or known about unless you go looking for something like it.

[SkateZilla]

Made for a specific plane, is not any less realistic as not made for a specific plane.

 

regardless of wether its a Warthog HOTAS, Cougar HOTAS, SFS hOTAS, X55, G940, etc.

 

Ya still gonna have to remap/make a profile for it.

 

Not considering a Warthog simply because its modelled after an A10Cs HOTAS and then looking at options that look like they were modelled after the Alien Ship from Independence Day's HOTAS doesnt make any sense.

 

if ya not flying the A10C you are going to have to create a profile regardless.

 

What makes them universal ones "Universal" and the Warthog "Not universal"?

 

the labels? I dont even look at the labels.

 

the shape? who cares if its shaped like a real plane.

 

the name? again who cares.

 

outside of the slew nub issue, there are other axes not mapped even by the A10C that can be used on the throttle to assign to radar elevation.

 

Dont discredit something for supposedly not being "universal"

[wilbur81]

For me the X55 would be the perfect joystick/throttle setup if:

 

a: was a bit sturdier

b: had FFB instead of rudder twist (or the ability to lock the rudder twist)

 

I still love my X55... I'd choose it over the Warthog ANY DAY, even if it was the same price. My main reason is that Warthog doesn't have enough buttons for me and isn't universal in its design.

[dburne]

I love my Warthog, it is extremely versatile and while I own DCS A10C I have not yet got into flying it. The Warthog works great for me in any of my flight sims.

 

If something were to happen to it, I should somehow manage to screw it up, I would not hesitate to buy another right away. Currently there is nothing out there I would want otherwise, at least not yet.

Edited February 4, 2016 by dburne

[xaoslaad]

Warthog HOTAS doesn't have radar antenna elevation wheel and the ministick is unsatisfactory hence it fails as an universal HOTAS.

 

Speak for yourself. If you want those badly you can easily and non-destructively add a few to your warthog; as many or as few as you want. And the ministick works quite fine with a little practice; the only other ministick I've ever used is on the X-52 and it was a bleeding PoS... when it worked it was ok, but it did a bunch of maddening nonsense I've never seen the warthog do...

[firmek]

X55 is a good HOTAS set but the Warthog is us much universal as X55. You can use it to fly any other sim. As for the mini stick initially I hated it but after calibration and setting up correct axes sensitivity in the game it works perfectly. I would not change it for anything else - especially that it has two level sensitivity. The only point for considering Warthog less "universal" is that it does not have the rudder twist. At the same time however for a lot of people this can be considered as an advantage.

X55 may have more buttons, being more specific on the throttle handles at the same IMO its biggest issue is the stabilizing spring on the stick.

There is always a degree of subjectivity in picking a hardware. No equipment is perfect, everyone has to balance prons and cons and make a decision of his own. It’s almost like picking VW Passat or Ford Mondeo. The best would be to try all of the sticks/sets before deciding on buying one, which unfortunately can be difficult.

[Sokol1_br]

As expected the thread turn in "Warthog is better than X-52" and not in useless* ideas for a better and flexible NON-REPLICA HOTAS. :)

 

DèJaVú F-16/A-10 HOTAS or "Spacecraft" X-52's HOTAS already exist, is not need some brand make then again!

 

* As no one manufacture will buy forum ideas, at best maybe can influency VKB for a future project, as they are more close of common simmers.

 

I was unaware of the existence of DCS until July last year,

 

You are not alone. Time ago I answer a survey for Saitek and the questions give me a impression is that besides FSX the guys don't have a clue of existence of other flight "games" in the market...

[Socket7]

Speak for yourself. If you want those badly you can easily and non-destructively add a few to your warthog; as many or as few as you want. And the ministick works quite fine with a little practice; the only other ministick I've ever used is on the X-52 and it was a bleeding PoS... when it worked it was ok, but it did a bunch of maddening nonsense I've never seen the warthog do...

 

The mini stick on the warthog acts as a joystick, and thus you can adjust it's sensitivity with with response curves and such inside of DCS. If you have problems with it being to sensitive or too useless, you can tweak that.

[nervousenergy]

If you've dropped $400+ on the 'hog already (I have and I'd buy it again in a heartbeat if it died, and I don't fly the A10), then I'll continue to advocate a solution that's worked well for me to get more sliders: pick up a CH throttle quadrant and mount it next to the Hog. Mine gives me access to all of the trim, mix, pitch, and radiator controls on the WWII birds, while all the switches on the Hog get to act like switches.

 

I got one used on ebay for $75.

[hansangb]

I like the Thrustmaster HOTAS set but the feel is so totally different from the real thing. I have to "man-handle" that thing to maneuver the aircraft. For doing precision work like ILS approaches in wind/turbulence or aerial refueling it's very hard for me (a 3000+ hour pilot of gliders, mostly powered fixed wing, lots of IFR, and some rotary) to make fine-touch or pressure-type control inputs. I suppose I will get used to it, but I worry that I will be ruining my real world flying.

 

I don't know how much force it takes to move an A10 joystick, but I'm thinking it must be similar? Regardless, you can buy the extensions or do this:

[ame]

[/ame]

 

takes a few minutes.

[dburne]

If you've dropped $400+ on the 'hog already (I have and I'd buy it again in a heartbeat if it died, and I don't fly the A10), then I'll continue to advocate a solution that's worked well for me to get more sliders: pick up a CH throttle quadrant and mount it next to the Hog. Mine gives me access to all of the trim, mix, pitch, and radiator controls on the WWII birds, while all the switches on the Hog get to act like switches.

 

I got one used on ebay for $75.

 

Ya I got one as well and have it available for when I need it. So far I have not really found I needed it that much so it is sidelined, maybe when I get more into DCS WWII as it progresses...