How do I properly fly the P-51D?

[Solty]

For misunderstanding i described P-51 high quality build compare to german fighters at this time.

Because of heavier yes but there is defently a difference between hang around on stall speed fighting where is weight important and high speed turns and dives.

It is not about stall fighting. What people do not understand is that knife fighting or turn fighting is not the only answer. B&Z Thats how Mustangs do. Go in, shoot extend climb up, turn around, dive on him, shoot and extend and repeat.

 

If the Damage Model was right the .50cal HMG's would be way more powerful at killing the 109, but because in DCS we have to realy keep our guns on target for so long to make the weapon realy useful.

[CHDT]

If the Damage Model was right the .50cal HMG's would be way more powerful at killing the 109, but because in DCS we have to realy keep our guns on target for so long to make the weapon realy useful.

 

Just curious, why it is model this way ?

A bug ?

[Coyote Duster]

It is not about stall fighting. What people do not understand is that knife fighting or turn fighting is not the only answer. B&Z Thats how Mustangs do. Go in, shoot extend climb up, turn around, dive on him, shoot and extend and repeat.

 

If the Damage Model was right the .50cal HMG's would be way more powerful at killing the 109, but because in DCS we have to realy keep our guns on target for so long to make the weapon realy useful.

 

I agree about the .50s but its not always about B&Z either, the stang was great at energy retention, thus great at "energy fighting" outclassing the 109 in high speed turns, high speed zoom climbs, and high speed spiral climbs. If paired with a wingman they could essentially "drag and bag" the 109.

[Solty]

Just curious, why it is model this way ?

A bug ?

Sithspawn said it is going to be adressed some time in the future. But we don't know the time at which it will change.

 

I think devs never saw any problem with that because the main theater of DCS is modern combat. And a missle basically makes your aircraft basic modules inoperable, and burst from HEI from 20mm and 30mm cannons does pretty much the same. Problem begins with .50cal API ammunition which is suppose to penetrate the target and cause internal damage and fire's. It doesn't have the destructive power of a HE shell, and was not made to destroy whole fragments of the airplane, but rather disable it from the fight by massive burst mass. Parts like the control surfaces when damaged only change the visual model, but their behaviour is the same as it was before getting hit, it just makes their Health Points (HP) go down, and only when it hits 0 it gets destryoed and doesn't operate normally.

 

The other thing is that there are no leaks. 109 has two big radiators under it's wings. If punctured that means nearly immediate RTB, because the coolant will leak and the more holes the quicker it will leak. In DCS you can hit it all you want, only if the whole wing flies off the 109 can go down, or the HP of the feuselage goes down to 0 and the plane starts to burn. But those fire's are not due to Incidieary properties but rather due to 0HP state of the module.

 

It is the design "feature" that is absolutely ok for modern jets, as they do not need to be that detailed because they are hit by big HE projectiles.

 

I agree about the .50s but its not always about B&Z either, the stang was great at energy retention, thus great at "energy fighting" outclassing the 109 in high speed turns, high speed zoom climbs, and high speed spiral climbs. If paired with a wingman they could essentially "drag and bag" the 109.

That is certainly possible but the 109K4 is not a "normal" 109. P-51D with 67hg vs Bf109G6 will do what you said without much problem, but the K4 is realy another step in the development and that step was also taken by the USAAF by allowing higher oct fuels and higher boost ratings. But we do not have that, so believe me that difference will be there for a while :(.

 

I agree tough that those tactics were used and many pilots were successful in dogfighting against the 109's. Primary example beeing the Bud Anderson's fight against a 109G in his P-51B.

[Zimmerdylan]

I often do a lot of high altitude flying in the P-51 with both wing tanks. I jumped in the cockpit tonight with 68% fuel and no external stores to make you a video and I too am seeing an issue with the climb performance in DCS 2.0, she pretty much flat lines around 15-17K.

 

I would agree that this is a bug and not correct. :book:

 

 

 

Thank you for doing that. I wish others would do the same. The plane just stalls at around 15000 and won't go any higher.

I know that people are frustrated with me for this post, but I have yet to see any videos of anyone climbing to 20,000 in the mustang in the NTTR map. I also feel that it is less effective as a whole on the NTTR map.

And all three of the P51 pilots I chatted with said the same thing about the supercharger. Don't touch it, the plane does all of that. But if you try and climb in the NTTR map, the supercharger will sometimes kick in at 16,000, sometimes at 15,000. In any event, it does not help you get any higher when it does. It just jerks the plane around a bit.

[Aginor]

Can you post the mission you used?

Perhaps we can then reproduce it.

 

I am completely baffled by this, since I have tested it and it works perfectly. I don't doubt it is a bug, but we have to find what causes it to help ED fix it. All I can say that it does not happen here (no mods of any kind, just the most recent 2.0 alpha version, a simple mission with only one plane starting from Groom Lake, tested both ramp start and runway start).

 

Especially since the altitude you are describing is almost exactly the one where my supercharger kicks in.

[MegOhm_SD]

Well....some pilots just wash out in some planes.

Poor John MCain crashed just about every plane he flew.

 

:music_whistling:

[Aginor]

Ok, I tried yet again, this time a ramp start (actually I had to look up the checklist because I forgot how to start :D ), and again it worked flawlessly.

 

setup:

- empty mission with only one P-51 in it

- 100% fuel, full gun ammo

- Groom Lake

- ramp start according to check list

- no warmup, just takeoff

- accelerate to 200mph IAS

- keep throttle and RPM in the green

- climb in big circles, VVI showing 1000 fpm climb

- keep needles in the green

- supercharger automatically activates at around 16,000ft

- stop flying circles at around 20,000 ft. to have more lift

- climb and climb and climb

 

I could reach 30,000ft in about 30 minutes. I timewarped while flying so it only took me seven minutes of real time, of course that ruined my climb rate a bit.

 

Unfortunately my video didn't save properly, I guess I have to get another recording software.

 

Oh, and:

Putting the mixture in "Emergency Rich" rather than "Run" during the starting procedure is the usual culprit in this case.

Can anybody confirm that? I haven't tested it yet.

 

EDIT: CONFIRMED!

I just repeated the above test, with one change: mixture in "Emergency Rich" (all the time). I could not climb above ~16,500ft.

Zimmerdylan, please try again and report back!

Edited March 23, 2016 by Aginor

[Coyote Duster]

Sithspawn said it is going to be adressed some time in the future. But we don't know the time at which it will change.

 

I think devs never saw any problem with that because the main theater of DCS is modern combat. And a missle basically makes your aircraft basic modules inoperable, and burst from HEI from 20mm and 30mm cannons does pretty much the same. Problem begins with .50cal API ammunition which is suppose to penetrate the target and cause internal damage and fire's. It doesn't have the destructive power of a HE shell, and was not made to destroy whole fragments of the airplane, but rather disable it from the fight by massive burst mass. Parts like the control surfaces when damaged only change the visual model, but their behaviour is the same as it was before getting hit, it just makes their Health Points (HP) go down, and only when it hits 0 it gets destryoed and doesn't operate normally.

 

The other thing is that there are no leaks. 109 has two big radiators under it's wings. If punctured that means nearly immediate RTB, because the coolant will leak and the more holes the quicker it will leak. In DCS you can hit it all you want, only if the whole wing flies off the 109 can go down, or the HP of the feuselage goes down to 0 and the plane starts to burn. But those fire's are not due to Incidieary properties but rather due to 0HP state of the module.

 

It is the design "feature" that is absolutely ok for modern jets, as they do not need to be that detailed because they are hit by big HE projectiles.

 

 

That is certainly possible but the 109K4 is not a "normal" 109. P-51D with 67hg vs Bf109G6 will do what you said without much problem, but the K4 is realy another step in the development and that step was also taken by the USAAF by allowing higher oct fuels and higher boost ratings. But we do not have that, so believe me that difference will be there for a while :(.

 

I agree tough that those tactics were used and many pilots were successful in dogfighting against the 109's. Primary example beeing the Bud Anderson's fight against a 109G in his P-51B.

 

All that is very futrating :wallbash: when you're at 350 mph, and you snap turn, that k4 sticks right along with you, no compression issues or nothing, and i've tried to spiral climb them a couple of times only for them to zoom right on my 6 with no problem at all, i can at least out run them on the deck

[Reflected]

It's still an interesting matchup. Most of the times in history the P-51 D faced earlier G model 109s. In all the books of German and Hungarian pilots I read how much faster the Mustang was. They could outclimb it, outmaneuver it, but not outrun it. Yet here we have the rare exception where the 109 is better at everything ( I know, the K is supposed to perform like this) Combine this with the shady DM of DCS, where smaller calibers don't do enough damage due to the lack of detailed DM. Honestly I'm having very little fun being eaten alive by 109s online. From time to time I can sneak up on one but mostly it's just target practice for them. DCS is not meant for prop planes I'm afraid.

[NineLine]

DCS is not meant for prop planes I'm afraid.

 

I quite enjoy the prop planes in DCS, they are a joy to fly and fight with, yes, there is issues to be worked through, but no other sim out there gives me the same feeling as ED's efforts... and it can only get better as we get more WWII era items, maps, and other aircraft.

[Reflected]

I quite enjoy the prop planes in DCS, they are a joy to fly and fight with, yes, there is issues to be worked through, but no other sim out there gives me the same feeling as ED's efforts... and it can only get better as we get more WWII era items, maps, and other aircraft.

 

I really enjoy flying them too, but the lack of detail in the DM makes smaller calibers very inefficient.

[Talisman_VR]

I quite enjoy the prop planes in DCS, they are a joy to fly and fight with, yes, there is issues to be worked through, but no other sim out there gives me the same feeling as ED's efforts... and it can only get better as we get more WWII era items, maps, and other aircraft.

 

Yes, looking forward to it getting better and better. Right now it is hard to get any sort of historic overall representation. For example, in WWII every sortie by a P51D or the upcoming Spitfire Mk IX was not against the top draw LW aircraft currently depicted by the 109K and 190D. However, in DCS WWII every sortie by the Mustang or upcoming Spit Mk IX will be against the Dora or Kurfurst, rather than more common LW aircraft types of the time. It will be even harder for some when the Me262 arrives if there are not more top draw Allied aircraft like the Tempest V and USA aircraft types running on the historical higher grade fuel. At least we are due to get the Spitfire Mk XIV soon to add to the mix :)

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

Edited March 26, 2016 by 56RAF_Talisman

[NineLine]

I really enjoy flying them too, but the lack of detail in the DM makes smaller calibers very inefficient.

 

Which has been acknowledged by ED as an area they need to update. The DM is only part of the issue, they other is practice and usage of the weapons in DCS... but we are sliding off-topic now.

Edited March 26, 2016 by NineLine

[Buzzles]

Thank you for doing that. I wish others would do the same. The plane just stalls at around 15000 and won't go any higher.

I know that people are frustrated with me for this post, but I have yet to see any videos of anyone climbing to 20,000 in the mustang in the NTTR map. I also feel that it is less effective as a whole on the NTTR map.

And all three of the P51 pilots I chatted with said the same thing about the supercharger. Don't touch it, the plane does all of that. But if you try and climb in the NTTR map, the supercharger will sometimes kick in at 16,000, sometimes at 15,000. In any event, it does not help you get any higher when it does. It just jerks the plane around a bit.

 

Due to this thread, I've just taken the P51D out for a spin over Nevada.

 

Started at Creech on the ramp, cold start, mission editor defaults for time/weather/fuel etc... flew West.

 

No problem at all taking the P51 up to 20,000. Supercharger kicked in around ~17,000 as expected. I actually took her all the way to 40,000 just to be sure, spent a good 5+ mins cruising at 37,500 and a lot more time cruising at 35,000.

 

It was a lazy climb pattern if I'm honest. Up to 10,000, sped up to about 275 IAS, then did a slow 1k-1.5k feet per min climb, mostly at 250 IAS until the 30's when the engine starts to run out of steam.

 

Certainly no issues like the ones mentioned in this thread though.

Edited March 26, 2016 by Buzzles

[Reflected]

I bought the 109. It's a great module, very interesting to handle. I jumped online and started slaughtering Mustangs like I wouldn't have dreamed. It really is like a cat vs mouse fight. All the Mustang could do was buying time and delaying its firey death...

[otto]

I bought the 109. It's a great module, very interesting to handle. I jumped online and started slaughtering Mustangs like I wouldn't have dreamed. It really is like a cat vs mouse fight. All the Mustang could do was buying time and delaying its firey death...

 

Can you post a video ?

[Mike Busutil]

I jumped online and started slaughtering Mustangs like I wouldn't have dreamed.

 

 

That's what happens when you put their skill level down to average lol

[Reflected]

That's what happens when you put their skill level down to average lol

 

 

 

Not sure how to do that online ;)

[otto]

Not sure how to do that online ;)

 

So you only killed AI planes ? It's not that difficult to kill with the p51 just that you need to be more patient than with the german planes, climb to a higher altitude and always attack with an altitude advantage.

Edited March 27, 2016 by otto

[otto]

The fact that you don't have a 75 hg mustang is a disadvantage for many. For me personally makes no difference if i fly with mw50 or without Now because of practice.

 

Also if you set your y curb you are more stable in turn fighting , smaller chance to stall, it negates a lot of the 109 turn advantage :

 

[ame]

[/ame]

 

 

 

 

You can't do that in the 109, you need to use 100 because otherwise controls lock a lot quicker.

Edited March 27, 2016 by BIGNEWY
1.2

[gavagai]

So you only killed AI planes ?

 

The more straightforward inference is that he was fighting humans because he was flying online. That is the point of flying online, right? ;)

 

Reflected is new to DCS, but he's a very good stick. :clap_2:

[Solty]

The fact that you don't have a 75 hg mustang is a disadvantage for many. For me personally makes no difference if i fly with mw50 or without Now because of practice.

 

Also if you set your y curb you are more stable in turn fighting , smaller chance to stall, it negates a lot of the 109 turn advantage :

 

 

 

You can't do that in the 109, you need to use 100 because otherwise controls lock a lot quicker.

 

the P-51's stick is calibrated so that a real life replica of a P-51 stick translates 1:1 in movment. The P-51 stick is nearly twice longer than the 109's stick, it is obvious you cannot do that in the 109.

 

So if you do not change the axis you are going into a fight with very over sensitive short stick that doesn't allow for flexibility. It has downsides though, at very low speeds nearing stall you cannot move the elevator so much so that it will allow to ride the stall. It also doesn't allow for max deflection at slow speeds, which is not bad for me, as current joystick that I have has realy bad rudder twist, but I can imagine that with a longer stick and rudder pedals one would be able to keep better turns.

 

Doesn't matter though. Because the 109 is superior in turning. If you can't turn well in it you are not realy trying I am afraid.

 

Yesterday, I was able to hold with one guy without a problem, his turns were not even close to my max deflection. But another guy was able to outturn me within 2x 360's and I was unable to get away from him.

------

72'hg and 75'hg is not for dogfighting purposes, you lack the ablity to understand that there is more to a fight than just turning. P-51 was never made for turnfights, otherwise nobody would give it a laminar profile wing. It is calibrated for speed, even more, it is defined by speed.

 

The airplane utilises it's max speed that is far superior to what Germans had during that time, except for Me262 and other jet prototypes that were pushed as the Wunderwaffe as the last ditch resort to stop allied bombings.

 

The sad thing is that P-51D even though underpowered will still be the best allies can use against the K4, D9 and 262. P47 can only be realy better at 8000m or more and frankly I think Spitfire even if it had 25lbs wouldn't change much.

Edited March 27, 2016 by BIGNEWY
1.2

[BIGNEWY]

Please keep the discussion non personal.

 

Thank you

Edited March 27, 2016 by BIGNEWY

[Reflected]

So you only killed AI planes ? It's not that difficult to kill with the p51 just that you need to be more patient than with the german planes, climb to a higher altitude and always attack with an altitude advantage.

 

No, I meant I flew against real players.