Flight Model feedback from ATAL

[rrohde]

Did they comment on the max speed achievable with the DCS Gazelle? Shouldn't it go faster than ~200km/h as it is now? Unless the Viviane sight affects the top-speed realistically.

[Pocket Sized]

Did they comment on the max speed achievable with the DCS Gazelle? Shouldn't it go faster than ~200km/h as it is now? Unless the Viviane sight affects the top-speed realistically.

 

Yep. The Viviane is a giant brick slapped on a streamlined canopy, taking a pretty reasonable toll on top speed. Same goes for the pylons.

[Mt5_Roie]

One of them is a regular DCS pilot who's flown all of the heli's and many of the module...not sure exactly how many hours, but I could ask him.

 

Are those Gazelle pilots flightsim enthusiasts that also fly other DCS helicopters, or they gave you the "amazing" verdict after few hours of playing DCS without previous simulator experience? Quite often real pilots have a hard time when trying a home simulator for the first time.

 

Actually they did. When discussing the SAS system they shared the sentiment that sometimes you feel like your fighting with the SAS for control. It happens on the real Gazelle just like it happens with our SAS.

Did the Gazelle pilots comment on any of the specifc FM issues raised on the forum during the last week?

 

While the Gazelle is in the "light" helicopter adding a Vivian system plus HOT3 missiles does add quite a bit of weight on her. Then add the pilots, who sometimes indulge in too many sweets...and your really weighted down. So typical load is half fuel and 2 HOT3 missiles. But remember, elevation also plays a key part in this. The elevation in Nevada is quite higher then that in Caucus. So in Nevada the Gazelle would have a harder time lifting off when heaver.

 

Yep. The Viviane is a giant brick slapped on a streamlined canopy, taking a pretty reasonable toll on top speed. Same goes for the pylons.

[Dudikoff]

Thanks for the quick reply. Just waiting for the FF trim support then.

[Mt5_Roie]

Yep. I have a sidewinder joystick somewhere in my closet I have to dig out to help with the testing for it. Haven't really used it much but many heli pilots love it so will learn to use it.

 

Out of curiosity, I'm only aware of the Sidewinder and Logitech 940 having Force Feedback - are there any other joysticks with feedback you guys use?

 

Thanks for the quick reply. Just waiting for the FF trim support then.

[kobac]

Gazelle in hover (RL) doesn't swing left/right, with or without an autopilot, as seen in the videos. :joystick:

[BaD CrC]

interesting thread and read...

 

Im really considering in getting the Gazelle as my first Heli...

 

can someone pls tell me honestly whether it makes sense to try to fly the Gazelle with Joystick only ?

I have no rudder pedals but of course a vertical turnable joystick to simulate pedal inputs..

 

so whats your oppinion guys ?is it worth trying or is the Gazelle to nervous to fly without rudder pedals and specific Heli control gear ?

 

(my buddies in the german DCS thread section suggested me not to try it just with joystick, unfort...)

 

As your first heli, going for the gazelle will most likely be a bit challenging. I have no doubt the FM is extremely realistic, I think just like the others choppers in DCS, but she is a very twitchy one. If you are an experienced DCS fix wing aircraft pilot, you'll be at loss flying her. But if you succeed, then every other DCS chopper will look much easier.

Flying with the joystick only sounds pretty crazy, but hey, I have seen people flying the Ka50 with the keyboard, so I guess humans can be amazing sometimes.:)

[Dudikoff]

Out of curiosity, I'm only aware of the Sidewinder and Logitech 940 having Force Feedback - are there any other joysticks with feedback you guys use?

 

There were some cheaper Saitek (e.g. Saitek Evo Force) and Logitech (e.g. Logitech Force 3D) offerings, but I wouldn't expect they're used for DCS nearly as much as the two you've mentioned.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Dudikoff

[Rongor]

The mentioned issue is not and never was about taking off straight into a hover, which is fairly easy. It is about sitting light on the skids without sliding.

exactly!

[Shughart]

Dear sir, you are wrong. The doppler radar tries to keep you in a 10x10m square. Hence the swing in auto hover mode.

 

Gazelle in hover (RL) doesn't swing left/right, with or without an autopilot, as seen in the videos. :joystick:

[exil]

Oh yes! It does make sence! I also have a Saitek X52 only without pedals (yet). If you tweak the curves a bit it's absolutly handable.

 

Go for it!

[kobac]

Dear sir, you are wrong. The doppler radar tries to keep you in a 10x10m square. Hence the

 

swing in auto hover mode.

 

I can understand this effect is added to improve the feeling of the players, but she is a calm like a candle. ;) Although I don't know about which autopilot is implemented in the PCS Gazelle, autopilot AP-85G serves as a source of information gyroscope verticale GV 76-1 placed in the repository, and gyro-magnetic compass CG-121. Doppler radar is to measure the altitude.

[microvax]

T16000m, no curves, flying the gazelle no problem. Go for it. [Have a friend flying it with 3d pro, also pretty usable it seems.]

[Flamin_Squirrel]

One of them is a regular DCS pilot who's flown all of the heli's and many of the module...not sure exactly how many hours, but I could ask him.

 

Actually they did. When discussing the SAS system they shared the sentiment that sometimes you feel like your fighting with the SAS for control. It happens on the real Gazelle just like it happens with our SAS.

 

While the Gazelle is in the "light" helicopter adding a Vivian system plus HOT3 missiles does add quite a bit of weight on her. Then add the pilots, who sometimes indulge in too many sweets...and your really weighted down. So typical load is half fuel and 2 HOT3 missiles. But remember, elevation also plays a key part in this. The elevation in Nevada is quite higher then that in Caucus. So in Nevada the Gazelle would have a harder time lifting off when heaver.

 

Thanks for this.

 

Has there been any comment on being unable to prevent sliding forward when light on skids? Also on what appears to be a lack of flap forward and back?

 

If the FM is correct as is it would be interesting to know what makes this little helo a bit quirky!

[zerO_crash]

Congratulation on the very good feedback by the ATAL pilots. I think this module is on a very good track.

 

Did the Gazelle pilots comment on any of the specific FM issues raised on the forum during the last week? I think there are a couple ones that would warrant a specifc pilot verification. The most curious one is probably the "light on skids" behaviour (raising collective to get weight off skids, but without actually getting airborne, it is impossible to stabilize the helicopter withouth either sliding forward or striking your tail on the ground).

 

Mbot, please read your post again, and thoroughly please! You do state that "it is impossible to stabilise the helicopter without either sliding forward or striking your tail on the ground", so saying that taking off into hover being easy contradicts your statement. Now if that is a matter of poor wording, sure I`l get that, but my question about the heli being "too light on skids" which you stated earlier is, how do you know? Any videos or reliable material for believing that?

 

Just as a mention, I did for instance find a video (link in different thread) that shows the gazelle flexing quite a bit when the pilot lands her, you can see the whole undercarriage flexing and absorbing shock quite nicely. That doesn`t seem to be as nicely simulated, but then there is something wrong with gazelle`s behaviour when touching surface. Are we then talking about the same issue, or?

[Deezle]

Mbot, please read your post again, and thoroughly please! You do state that "it is impossible to stabilise the helicopter without either sliding forward or striking your tail on the ground", so saying that taking off into hover being easy contradicts your statement. Now if that is a matter of poor wording, sure I`l get that, but my question about the heli being "too light on skids" which you stated earlier is, how do you know? Any videos or reliable material for believing that?

There's no contradiction. You can quickly pick it up into a stable hover without noticing the sliding. You cannot slowly lift the collective and get light on the skids without sliding forward.

[flyer49]

I really appreciate hearing from the real life Gazelle pilots. Because of my own background as a UH-1/UH-60 pilot in real life, I can judge the feel of the DCS Huey as aerodynamically correct and love to fly it. Based on the DCS Huey’s accuracy, I would assume that the gazelle feels correct using default settings on my flight controls (but I needed to hear this from a real world Gazelle pilot).

 

I have put quite a few hours into learning this light helicopter and have found that it is imperative that the start-up check list be followed to the letter. I was having difficulties in the beginning stabilizing the aircraft believing that the SAS system was fully functioning when in fact I didn’t have the Gyro engaged. After researching the manual, I found that the SAS system works in tandem with the Gyro and without it, it’s more difficult to handle.

 

I’m now actually capable of a stable hover and take-off and I’m getting better and better at flying this great aircraft. What I was finding fault with was actually of my own making so I would advise reading the manual and going through the start-up procedures word-for-word until you get used to it. There are still a few quirky things that I still find odd (I’m finding fewer and fewer oddities)…but now I wonder if some of my initial difficulties might not be in my transitioning technique (from Huey to Gazelle) instead of the flight dynamics built in by the developers.

 

After hearing that the real world Gazelle pilots find this model accurate I can now concentrate on correcting my faults and stop blaming the built-in flight dynamics. Keep up the good work Polychop-Simulation and I’ll keep buying your product

[chobbsUH60]

I really appreciate hearing from the real life Gazelle pilots. Because of my own background as a UH-1/UH-60 pilot in real life, I can judge the feel of the DCS Huey as aerodynamically correct and love to fly it. Based on the DCS Huey’s accuracy, I would assume that the gazelle feels correct using default settings on my flight controls (but I needed to hear this from a real world Gazelle pilot).

 

I have put quite a few hours into learning this light helicopter and have found that it is imperative that the start-up check list be followed to the letter. I was having difficulties in the beginning stabilizing the aircraft believing that the SAS system was fully functioning when in fact I didn’t have the Gyro engaged. After researching the manual, I found that the SAS system works in tandem with the Gyro and without it, it’s more difficult to handle.

 

I’m now actually capable of a stable hover and take-off and I’m getting better and better at flying this great aircraft. What I was finding fault with was actually of my own making so I would advise reading the manual and going through the start-up procedures word-for-word until you get used to it. There are still a few quirky things that I still find odd (I’m finding fewer and fewer oddities)…but now I wonder if some of my initial difficulties might not be in my transitioning technique (from Huey to Gazelle) instead of the flight dynamics built in by the developers.

 

After hearing that the real world Gazelle pilots find this model accurate I can now concentrate on correcting my faults and stop blaming the built-in flight dynamics. Keep up the good work Polychop-Simulation and I’ll keep buying your product

 

What start up procedure in the manual are you referring to because my manual, under start-up procedure, it just tells me to follow the tutorial in the game? Am I missing something here?

[flyer49]

My apologies, I'm referring to the start-up steps tutorial in game. My issues were that I skipped steps not realizing that they were key to my problems. After studying the manual it became clear that steps were missed in the start-up procedures...sorry for the confusion...

[chobbsUH60]

Ohhh gotcha. Btw, much respect sir, I'm currently a uh-60 crew chief in a medevac unit in California building my flight packet and love the hawk as well as flying the uh-1 in this sim. I don't know how long you have been retired, mainly if you knew any of the pilots that were recently lost in the special ops accident in Florida but we deployed with a lot of them and my condolences if you did.

 

Hobbsy

[dotChuckles]

The pickup to hover and getting light on the skids without sliding forward that people seem to be having... could it be nothing to do with the FM but actually more to do with the cof between the skids and the ground? Maybe too low a value or something to do with the way it's applied?

[zerO_crash]

There's no contradiction. You can quickly pick it up into a stable hover without noticing the sliding. You cannot slowly lift the collective and get light on the skids without sliding forward.

 

Deezle, read my last post before that, and you will see that I am not the one claiming there is any problem with it, so that is irrelevant. And yes, he contradicts himself, from what`s written in his previous post.

 

And if you were refering to the issue I reported, then read it again, thoroughly please. It mentions skids not being as elastic as they should.

Edited May 12, 2016 by zerO_crash

[msalama]

Slowly getting the hang of this beautiful beastess now.

 

Am honestly not sure anymore if the FM critique expressed here is justified, because practice combined with some curves tweaking seems to make the bird 100% controllable in all regimes, provided that you always, ALWAYS remember how authoritative / strong the stab system is - and how rapidly you'll get into a VRS if you don't watch what you're doing!

 

Anyway, I've set my controllers as per the pics attached & am pretty happy with them for now. And the rest, as is known, is sheer practice...

[MBot]

Mbot, please read your post again, and thoroughly please! You do state that "it is impossible to stabilise the helicopter without either sliding forward or striking your tail on the ground", so saying that taking off into hover being easy contradicts your statement. Now if that is a matter of poor wording, sure I`l get that, but my question about the heli being "too light on skids" which you stated earlier is, how do you know? Any videos or reliable material for believing that?

 

I have the impression you do not understand what "light on the skids" means. It means pulling enough collective so that not all the helicopter weight rests on the skids, but not so much for the skids to completely separate from the ground.

 

Please watch this video:

 

 

In the first 3 demonstrations I am pulling just enough collective for the helicopter to become light on the skids. Note that the helicopter starts to slide forward, which I counter with considerable aft cyclic. The forward movement cannot be stopped until the helicopter pitches up. A stabilization in this phase is virtually impossible (so far no one has demonstrated it). In the fourth attempt I am pulling more collective to go straight into a fully airborne hover, which is easily done.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Am honestly not sure anymore if the FM critique expressed here is justified, because practice combined with some curves tweaking seems to make the bird 100% controllable in all regimes...

 

You have assumed that those critiquing the FM are doing so because they think it is difficult to fly. On the contrary, I've not seen a single person say the FM is wrong because it's difficult. In fact the majority of people I've seen comment are RW pilots.