New DCS Mig23 and Mig-19 Project

[ST0RM]

NOW no matter what you see here, these are in very EARLY stages, a LOT needs to be done and don´t expect absolutely anything until at least, final days of 2017 (yup, a year from now) for some solid news on these.

Both projects have zero (0) impact on current schedule so Harrier fans (and both Mirages as well) should not worry at all.

 

Based on Ron's words above, and the distinct lack of any news on the Tucano in several months, the Harrier and Mirage III appear to have moved forward on the schedule. Can someone from Razbam please answer?

 

Thanks.

[Darkwolf]

MLA never was able to carry and fire R-73, because all Soviet ML/MLA were rebuilt to MLD variant

 

That's fine. Mirage 2000C got their DDM. If we ask hard enough, we'll get the R73. :D

[foxbat155]

I think better option is ask hard for MLD, many nice toys: better aerodynamics, flares/chaffs dispensers, better radar, close combat mode ( similar to MiG-29 ), Archers.:thumbup:

[Redglyph]

A Flogger... that's certainly not an ordinary idea.

[VIKBELL]

I glad to new soviet union equipment.

[WinterH]

That's fine. Mirage 2000C got their DDM. If we ask hard enough, we'll get the R73. :D

 

Oh I rather hope not going down that road... oh wait, tihs will technically be RAZBAM right... oh well, bring on the Adders then... :P

[Sweep]

Oh I rather hope not going down that road... oh wait, tihs will technically be RAZBAM right... oh well, bring on the Adders then... :P

 

Adders?

 

What is this, a -98 Flogger now? :megalol:

Edited December 13, 2016 by Sweep
lol

[Stratos]

I agree on the 23MLD, and will be a better match for the Tomcat.

[Kev2go]

Yeah, that were the MLD's. There are some internet rumors that earlier 23/27's could have a modified centerpylon that would accept the standard soviet flare/chaff dispenser, but I call it a myth until I see pictures/documents that prove otherwise

 

I'm actually glad we wont get the MLD's, they were not as fast, nor as stable, as the MLA's. The pilot workload should be massive enough as it is, and I doubt the more advanced avionics made it a lot better.

 

hmm noy\t having Chaff/ flare dispenser not worth it? its not a extra luxury, its a necessity. comparable platforms, like the F4E phantom with modifications mid - late 70s had flare & chaff dispensers, Mirage F1 would have that too, plus current mig21bis ( via external mounts) and F5E have them. so not having one will make the mig23 easier to shoot out of the sky. countermeasures are a must have even with such legacy 3rd generation platforms.

 

So i suppose if no MLA ever had them in no way shape or form , then i guess we need to beg for the MLD.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Kev2go

[WinterH]

Personally, I'd be fine with MLA. If MLD could be done, great! But even then I have no illusions of being much more competitive against a Tomcat, than I'd be when inside a Fishbed.

 

An MLA would be more than capable enough in an F-5, MiG-21, and Viggen (which also kinda don't have counter mesures unless pilot opts to sacrifice half their payload and agility) environment, where it belongs. While it would arguably be the worst dogfighter, it would easily be fastest and the one with best radar, as well as the biggest stick with an "almost BVR" missile. Interesting balance.

 

Countermeasures and R-73, and an apparently pretty decent radar on MLD are great, so is somewhat improved maneuverability. But against any of the 4th gen planes, I don't see them making that big fo a difference, R-24 wouldn't be reliable to get kills much further than R-3R ranges, look down capability will matter less since we will have to graze the tips of grass anyways, and even if we consider the MLD, none of the Floggers have been particularly agile dogfighters, even by 3rd gen standards.

 

It would be better, yes, but not sure if it would be revolutionarily better if the expectation is to duke it out with 4th gens on 104th. Tomcat, Eagle, Flanker, Mirage and Hornet would either outgun or outmaneuver, or even both the Flogger so bad, it wouldn't be funny :). So any hopes of success against those in MiG-23 would be more or less the same as it is in MiG-21. I admit that R-73 would probably make some difference especially with a close combat radar mode, but considering that the Flogger would possibly be even worse than Fishbed in bringing those to bear on a maneuvering target, it may kinda even out.

 

So, I'd say while the MLD could be better, in the end either MLA or MLD would be fine.

 

Going against the grain though, what I'd really like from Flogger family is actually MiG-27. Interceptor versions may not be particularly hot fighters for their eras, let alone beyond, but the attack variant would fill a nice gap in DCS : as was apparent in recent grudge match round 3, MiG-21 vs F-5 + Viggen as striker was a pretty neat match. If there was another "supersonic striker and almost fighter" for the red side too... so many nice scearios could play in multi player :).

[Kev2go]

Personally, I'd be fine with MLA. If MLD could be done, great! But even then I have no illusions of being much more competitive against a Tomcat, than I'd be when inside a Fishbed.

 

An MLA would be more than capable enough in an F-5, MiG-21, and Viggen (which also kinda don't have counter mesures unless pilot opts to sacrifice half their payload and agility) environment, where it belongs. While it would arguably be the worst dogfighter, it would easily be fastest and the one with best radar, as well as the biggest stick with an "almost BVR" missile. Interesting balance.

 

Countermeasures and R-73, and an apparently pretty decent radar on MLD are great, so is somewhat improved maneuverability. But against any of the 4th gen planes, I don't see them making that big fo a difference, R-24 wouldn't be reliable to get kills much further than R-3R ranges, look down capability will matter less since we will have to graze the tips of grass anyways, and even if we consider the MLD, none of the Floggers have been particularly agile dogfighters, even by 3rd gen standards.

 

It would be better, yes, but not sure if it would be revolutionarily better if the expectation is to duke it out with 4th gens on 104th. Tomcat, Eagle, Flanker, Mirage and Hornet would either outgun or outmaneuver, or even both the Flogger so bad, it wouldn't be funny :). So any hopes of success against those in MiG-23 would be more or less the same as it is in MiG-21. I admit that R-73 would probably make some difference especially with a close combat radar mode, but considering that the Flogger would possibly be even worse than Fishbed in bringing those to bear on a maneuvering target, it may kinda even out.

 

So, I'd say while the MLD could be better, in the end either MLA or MLD would be fine.

 

Going against the grain though, what I'd really like from Flogger family is actually MiG-27. Interceptor versions may not be particularly hot fighters for their eras, let alone beyond, but the attack variant would fill a nice gap in DCS : as was apparent in recent grudge match round 3, MiG-21 vs F-5 + Viggen as striker was a pretty neat match. If there was another "supersonic striker and almost fighter" for the red side too... so many nice scearios could play in multi player :).

 

an f5e pilot doesnt have to sacrifice payload for countermeasures. those are internal. The Mig21BIs doesnt sacrifce payload either despite relying on external mounts. the external space it takes up can only mount the SPRD rocket boosters for assisted takeoff, which isnt necessary for A2A loadout. it sacrifices no fuel or weapons carry capacity. and maneuverability has a very minimal impact.

 

compared to the to the F4E even with Wing slats modification reducing its stall speed and increasing maneuverability , the mig23 MLA ca win WVR turnfight no problem aginst it. the MLD is even more maneuverable., and could challenge the Mirage F1 in a WVR dogfight. Sure while the Mig21's instantanues turn rate is great, its not that good for sustained turns, as it bleeds energy fast, and when it does it has nasty stall charactersics, ones that are more forgiving. on the Mig23 thanks to its variable sweep wings. With the MLD further improved manuverability i consider it better in a sustained turn engagement over the 21.

 

R24 ? only marginally better then the R3R? considerabily better id say. far from an Aim7M or a R27, but still a very noteworthy improvement, considering the R3R range is comparable to heatseakers and not medium range missiles. It was found to be better than the Aim7E series, and so it could be then something of a Aim7F counterpart.

 

we dont need an MLD for most of extra features against legacy era/ but if that means getting countermeasures dispensers and even ECM pods, than yea i want the MLD.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Kev2go

[flanker1]

an f5e pilot doesnt have to sacrifice payload for countermeasures. those are internal. The Mig21BIs doesnt sacrifce payload either despite relying on external mounts. the external space it takes up can only mount the SPRD rocket boostersfor assisted takeoff, which isnt nearness for A2A loadout. it sacrifices no fuel fuel or weapons carry capacity. and maneuverability has a very minimal impact.

 

compared to the t F4E even with Wing slats modification reducing its stall speed and increasing manuverability , the mig23 MLA can beat that in a WVR turnfight no problem. the MLD is even more maneuverable.

 

R24 isnt only marginally better then the R3R. It was found to be better than the Aim7E series, and so its something of a Aim7F counterpart.

 

we dont need an MLD for most of extra features against legacy ear/ but if that means getting countermeasures dispensers than yea i want the MLD.

 

exactly! thank you for that. . . in late eighties/early nineties i saw 16va mld´s in former eastern germany dogfighting against fulcrums in a practice. the maneuverability was unbelievable to me, how quick they can turn and making some nice pressure on the fulcrums. even the climb rate was impressive and not much slower than the fulcrum ones. the mld was a real agile fighter.

 

see them here: http://www.16va.be/galeries_vvs/mig-23mld/imgcol/index.html

 

you can also find some nice stories about and the hard way to achieve it within the www other sources.

 

mla attached. it would be a dream to have the 23 in dcs, finally. even if it will be only an update of the AI 3-d-model.

Edited December 13, 2016 by flanker1

[Brigg]

this is awesome news, and I cant wait to fly them :pilotfly:

[WinterH]

an f5e pilot doesnt have to sacrifice payload for countermeasures. those are internal. The Mig21BIs doesnt sacrifce payload either despite relying on external mounts.

 

Yes, they don't, that parenthesis was obviously about the Viggen, which, apart from JA version which we aren't getting, will need to use up most important of it's pylons to take countermeasures, and apparently they also have significant impact on it's handling too.

 

As for the Flogger's agility, it was theoretically better than even early F-16 versions in vertical according to some tests BUT, it was also horribly nasty when it comes to high angle of attack regimes. Eeking out the the best theoretical performance out of it while also trying to manage it's systems, and keep a semblance of a situational awareness from that canopy which seem to have even worse visibility than Fishbed's doesn't sound like an everyday occurence does it? Also, in swing wing aircraft, to get the best turn figures, or the best acceleration, you need to use mutually exclusive sweep settings. This is less of a problem in a Tomcat where aircraft does it automatically, and besides pilot isn't as loaded with tasks as it is in Flogger. MiG-23's wing sweep is manual. Another point, usually when you decrease the sweep and increase the wing span, you often also give up acceleration and perhaps some roll response difference too. So dogfighting in MiG-23 while trying to get a decent performance out of it sounds like juggling swords while riding a unicycle to me. It's whole party trick really is its speed and acceleration and nothing else in my opinion.

 

I know it did best a Mirage F-1 once, but that sounds more like a victory of all aspect capability missiles vs older generation tail chase missiles, than anything else. I am rusty a bit, but I remember reading compared to F-4E, MiG-23MLA(?) was while kinda close, still inferior in both instantaneous and sustained turning performance. Don't remember whether it was against a slatted F-4E or not though.

 

Anyway, this all sounds too much like disparaging the Flogger, I am infact very happy we may eventually get a red bird, and looking forward to it quite a lot.

[OverStratos]

then i guess we need to beg for the MLD.

 

The CM bars are easily mounted on any ML variant.

 

Adders?

 

Most probaly not.

 

I have no illusions of being much more competitive against a Tomcat

 

Export MLs have two Tomcats on their tally. Let me repeat that again: "export"...:)

 

While it would arguably be the worst dogfighter...

none of the Floggers have been particularly agile dogfighters, even by 3rd gen standards....

 

I have always wondered from where some people bring these facts.

 

I have here the manuals (not the internet manuals) of the Mirage F1C and the F-4E and you´d be pretty impressed how more maneuverable and energetic the MiG-23ML is compared to them. If we are talking about the first variants, the yes, they were not that maneuverable, but now we need to concentrate on ML and above.

 

Many people seem to forget a few things. A variable geometry wing, a new 13 Tons thrust engine and a lighter and stronger airframe. Yes, the wing have 3 pre-settled positions in the lever: 16-45-72, which are supposed to be for TO-L, dogfight, acceleration-supersonic flight. hint: a good pilot will not be limited by this. endofthehint.

 

R-24 wouldn't be reliable to get kills much further than R-3R ranges

 

R-24Ts were getting kills at drones at 32km distances.

 

So dogfighting in MiG-23 while trying to get a decent performance out of it sounds like juggling swords while riding a unicycle to me

 

Real pilots seem to disagree with you.

 

I know it did best a Mirage F-1 once, but that sounds more like a victory of all aspect capability missiles vs older generation tail chase missiles, than anything else.

 

The Mirage was downed by an R-60M missile fired from the rear. The MiG-23 pair had an altitude advantage and were able to turn into the Mirages turn circle without problem. Before this, one of the Mirages was locked on at about 27 km by the pair wingman but for unknow reasons it did not fire an R-24R.

[Kev2go]

The CM bars are easily mounted on any ML variant.

 

 

 

 

 

Though we need some documented proof of this was actually done on combat serviceable airframes. just because it could 'theoretically" be mounted on Mig23 airframes prior to the MLD, doesn't nessarily prove the MLA did end up being modified in soviet, pact or export use to carry CM. ( at least i haven't been able to find anything concrete) everything points the MLD being the mig23 that had CM.

 

I mean the F15A/C eagle could theoretically ( and even according to official SAC sheets) carry unguided bombs and deploy them, although USAF f15 pilot did not train for this, and did not have bomb issued to them for combat.,Due to the "not a pound for air to ground' attitude.

 

Which i guess is ED the realism reasoning that our FC3 F15's dont have the capability carry Mk80 series, whilst if it was another developer leaning on a more liberal approach to functionality ( or a Specifc nations eagle, such as the Isreali F15, which was used for strike in a couples instances), may have given them that option.

 

Id like to have CM, but not if it breaches realism of the MLA too much, but then again its up to the developer to make that call in the end. We know leatherneck took some minor liberties with thier 21bis ( like the missile mode, the pipper tracking target when the IR gets a lock, which can be disabled in menu).

Edited December 14, 2016 by Kev2go

[OverStratos]

Presumably all MLAs and MLs were converted to MLD standard and then acquired the CM bars.

 

However, in Afganistan MLD and ML soldiered together.

 

 

And here you can see that UBs were modified to also carry CMs.

 

 

 

 

If you look well, you can glimpse the bars.

 

I think we can agree that the original MLs were also modified.

Edited December 14, 2016 by OverStratos

[Dudikoff]

Countermeasures and R-73, and an apparently pretty decent radar on MLD are great, so is somewhat improved maneuverability. But against any of the 4th gen planes, I don't see them making that big fo a difference, R-24 wouldn't be reliable to get kills much further than R-3R ranges

 

R-24 and MLD? IIRC, the R-24 missiles were introduced with the MLA?

 

Really weird comparison with the R-3R, though..

[Kev2go]

Presumably all MLAs and MLs were converted to MLD standard and then acquired the CM bars.

 

However, in Afganistan MLD and ML soldiered together.

 

 

And here you can see that UBs were modified to also carry CMs.

 

 

If you look well, you can glimpse the bars.

 

I think we can agree that the original MLs were also modified.

 

 

well yes true that MLAs were eventually converted to MLDs, but a MLA convert, is littreraly an MLD at that point.

 

What were supposed to get is a MLA its that specifc form, otherwise i dont think the team would call it ( or officially announce it) as a MLA flogger G. UB is similar, but its a 2 seat trainer.

 

 

 

Edit: "derp"

 

I somehow overlooked that Overstratos is part of the new razbam team . WEll then il take it that you are going to aim at making an MLA with CM.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Kev2go

[OverStratos]

well yes true that MLAs were eventually converted to MLDs, but a MLA convert, is littreraly an MLD at that point.

 

What I´m trying to tell you is that MLAs used the CM bars, but they were all field modifications (or mostly all), so no available photos or documents at the moment.

 

The first photo is a MiG-23MLA fighting alonside MLDs in Afganistan.

 

i think we will need an official statement from the Razbam team if they will take the liberty of giving the MLA CM pods.

 

You are talking with the Razbam team right now.

 

I´m just saying that CM are a possibility to be included.

[Kev2go]

What I´m trying to tell you is that MLAs used the CM bars, but they were all field modifications (or mostly all), so no available photos or documents at the moment.

 

The first photo is a MiG-23MLA fighting alonside MLDs in Afganistan.

 

 

 

You are talking with the Razbam team right now.

 

I´m just saying that CM are a possibility to be included.

 

 

yea sorry

 

Hence eddied my last point, because i want back a few pages and realized your part of the team integrated into razbam.

 

So its a field mod, hmm ok i understand now .

[WinterH]

R-24 and MLD? IIRC, the R-24 missiles were introduced with the MLA?

 

Really weird comparison with the R-3R, though..

 

R-3R comparison is not really real life so much as it is DCS reality :). Even R-27 or sparrow are good for only somewhat better range than (LN's probably a bit overmodeled) R-3R in sim.

[portman]

I have always wondered from where some people bring these facts.

From US-based sources I guess :music_whistling:

I have here the manuals (not the internet manuals) of the Mirage F1C and the F-4E and you´d be pretty impressed how more maneuverable and energetic the MiG-23ML is compared to them. If we are talking about the first variants, the yes, they were not that maneuverable, but now we need to concentrate on ML and above.

Many people seem to forget a few things. A variable geometry wing, a new 13 Tons thrust engine and a lighter and stronger airframe. Yes, the wing have 3 pre-settled positions in the lever: 16-45-72, which are supposed to be for TO-L, dogfight, acceleration-supersonic flight. hint: a good pilot will not be limited by this. endofthehint.

Thanks for clarifying this. Former GDR pilots also talk about the MiG-23ML as "a whole new quality" and the "first real and complete soviet fighter plane" especially compared to the MiG-23MF and MiG-21 series.

[MAD-MM]

What are the aerodynamic difference between MLA and MLD Vortex Generators?

Looking foward to sometimes for upgrade to the MLD they provide better electronics.

can ask what you are missing from the MLD Variant?

[Dudikoff]

R-3R comparison is not really real life so much as it is DCS reality :). Even R-27 or sparrow are good for only somewhat better range than (LN's probably a bit overmodeled) R-3R in sim.

 

Ah, I misunderstood your post then, sorry. :)

 

Perhaps they were using the data which states the maximum theoretical range (e.g. high altitude frontal hemisphere shot at a fast approaching target at low altitude)?