Required SAM components

[Sierra99]

Gentlemen...

 

Is there a list of exactly what components must be present for various SAM systems to operate?

 

Sierra

[twistking]

i've not tested every system, so someone else could perhaps verify, but my understanding is, that the radar-sams behave realistically in terms of what is needed for operation.

So you would need at least a command vehicle (flag symbol), a targeting radar and launcher. Search radar (sr) isn't needed in theory, but dramatically (!) improves performance.

The buk-system has targeting radar integrated with the launch vehicle, so only command vehicle and one launcher should be enough to make the group work...

 

so, in short: you basically need every piece (that is labeled witht he system name) at least once, BUT there is a high change, that the system would still work to some extend without the dedicated search radar.

exception to the exception: the roland system, seems to be self contained with everything on board and the dedicated radar vehicle seems no to be needed for good performance.

Edited February 5, 2017 by twistking

[Grimes]

Most sams have the same requirements but there are aspects that make each sam unique. It mostly comes down to if a specific object type exists for a specific type of sam site. Here are the 4 basic elements that make up a sam.

 

Search radar

tracking radar

launcher

command

 

Sometimes the search radar and tracking radar are in the same object (Patriot and Kub STR)

 

Sometimes there are two types of search radars (S-300 and HAWK)

 

Sometimes the tracking radar is built directly into the launcher (Buk)

 

Sometimes a CC isn't required because the object type doesn't exist for them (SA-3 and Kub)

 

Generally speaking if the CC object exists then it is required. The only exception is the Buk because the Buk launchers have an optical sight built in and can acquire targets via that. But the range is massively reduced. The CC objects literally communicate target information from the search radar to tracking radars and launchers.

 

The Patriot is odd in that it has 4 extra objects related to it. Last I checked only the "Patriot ECS" was required. Everything else is for show.

 

Search radars are required for sams to work, the only time it doesn't matter is for any target actively tracked by the tracking radars and Buk with its optical system.

[twistking]

thanks Grimes. it seems, there was still quite a lot that i missed.

[Wrench]

Here's a thread (it's old, but it still works)

It's by Stuka, and it's basically a ton of templates.

He has a template file you can use, or a mission set up so you can pick and choose which ones you want to use.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=82161

He has a bunch of templates for both US and Russian SAM sites, and from what I've tested, they work.

He explains how to do both in the thread.

[Rudel_chw]

Here's a thread (it's old, but it still works)

It's by Stuka, and it's basically a ton of templates.

....

 

Thank you, thank you ... :) ... that thread is new to me, and so very useful ... I will store a link to it, as reference documentation :D

[Sierra99]

Most sams have the same requirements but there are aspects that make each sam unique. It mostly comes down to if a specific object type exists for a specific type of sam site. Here are the 4 basic elements that make up a sam.

 

Search radar

tracking radar

launcher

command

 

Sometimes the search radar and tracking radar are in the same object (Patriot and Kub STR)

 

Sometimes there are two types of search radars (S-300 and HAWK)

 

Sometimes the tracking radar is built directly into the launcher (Buk)

 

Sometimes a CC isn't required because the object type doesn't exist for them (SA-3 and Kub)

 

Generally speaking if the CC object exists then it is required. The only exception is the Buk because the Buk launchers have an optical sight built in and can acquire targets via that. But the range is massively reduced. The CC objects literally communicate target information from the search radar to tracking radars and launchers.

 

The Patriot is odd in that it has 4 extra objects related to it. Last I checked only the "Patriot ECS" was required. Everything else is for show.

 

Search radars are required for sams to work, the only time it doesn't matter is for any target actively tracked by the tracking radars and Buk with its optical system.

 

Must Spread Rep...Good info Grimes. Thanks

 

Sierra

[twistking]

hello, i got a quick question:

 

in reality, what would be the maximum distance between a HAWK launcher unit and its targeting radar?

would it be realistic to have some launchers 20 oder 30nm away from the tracking radar?

thanks! :)

 

*edit* answered elsewhere:

No, it would not be. 1km maybe, but usually they won't be that far. Maybe a few hundred meters.

Edited May 1, 2017 by twistking

[VTJS17_Fire]

And if you want to know, how to set a real HAWK SAM site, here is a checklist:

https://www.hawkies.de/stellungserfordernisse.html

 

It's the homepage of a former german HAWK squadron. Just use google translator.

 

Stellungskriterien der Einzelgeräte (placing criteria for single units)

1. CWAR
   
   • höchste Erhebung innerhalb der Einsatzstellung (highest geographical point of the SAM site)
     
   • vorgezogener Stellplatz in Bedrohungsrichtung (placed in front and in threat direction)
     
   • Geländeneigung nicht größer 10 Grad (terrain slope within 10°)
     
   • Sichtverbindung zum HIPIR und IFF (line of sight to HIPIR and IFF)
     
   • ca. 25 km Radarsicht bei einem Deckungswinkel < 5 (~ 25Km radar range with a coverage angle of 5°)
     
   • keine großen Reflexionsflächen näher als 152,4 m (avoid big reflecting surfaces within 152,4 meters)
     

 

[*]HPIR

• zweithöchste Erhebung innerhalb der Einsatzstellung
  
• Geländeneigung nicht größer 10 Grad
  
• Sichtverbindung zu LCHR, CWAR
  
• Störquellen (Gebläse, Ventilatoren) beachten! Noise
  
• keine großen Refexionsflächen näher als 152,4 m
  

 

[*]LCHR

• Hindernissfreie Abschusszone (150 Strich / 2km)
  
• Sichtverbindung zu LSCB und HPIR (Alignment)
  
• Geländeneigung nicht größer 10 Grad
  
• Abstand zu anderen Geräten mind. 61 m
  
• ungehinderte Zufahrt für Ladefahrzeug
  
• kein Geröll im Umkreis von 10 m
  

 

[*]PCP

• Eingangstür entgegen Bedrohungsrichtung
  
• Geräteordnung, auf Kabelanschlusstafel achten
  
• Geländeneigung nicht größer 10 Grad
  

 

[*]IFF

• Antenne gleiche Höhe wie CWAR
  
• Antenne auf Dreibein nicht weiter als 50 m vom PCP
  
• Geländeneigung nicht größer 10 Grad
  

 

[*]Stromerzeugungsanlage (SEA)

• Stellplatz nicht in Bedrohungsrichtung
  
• Gebläseseite (links), von CW-Geräten abgewandt
  
• Geländeneigung nicht größer als 10 Grad
  
• ungehinderte Zufahrt für Tankfahrzeuge (wenn erlaubt)
  

 

[*]RiFuTrp / AMA HAWK

• gedeckter Aufbau der Antenne und Kfz
  
• Abstand PCP max. Kabellänge
  
• geeignete Stellfläche
  
• Geländeneigung
  

 

 

Sicherheitsabstände im WaSys HAWK

 

im Strahlungskegel der Radargeräte

HPIR 115 m

CWAR (drehende Antenne) 36 m

CWAR (stehende Antenne) 74 m

 

 

Kabellängen im WaSys HAWK

 

Datenkabel, lang 114,30 m

Stromkabel 114,30 m

IFF Remote Kabel 50,40 m

FM-Verbindungskabel zu PCP 80,00 m

Lichtwellenleiter GEHOC 1000 m

[Duster]

Hi, a question, but do the 2.5 hawks work? I could not get them to shoot unlike the Russian sam : Huh:

[feefifofum]

Last I checked, yes.

[Kang]

Mine work if used with the SR and TR. Frankly, I have never seen the CWAR radar do anything meaningful in DCS yet.

[schurem]

Anybody got the mew SA-2 to fire yet?

[Reflected]

It fired at me once, but more often than not it doesn't. I add one SR, 2-3 LN and 1 TR to one group.

[schurem]

Does it matter which Search Radar you use? The Fan Song is the Tracking Radar, right?

 

I got it to fire at me! Five launchers, a Fan Song, a P-19 and a CP (that also has a radar) all set to excellent skill. The missiles missed. But they shot at me hard and fast! yay!

Edited September 26, 2018 by schurem

[Grimes]

There is no CP object required for the SA-2.

[Reflected]

So I should just add the fansong and the launch rail, and it should fire?

 

also, do I need to add several launch pads, or one will suffice - will it reload?

 

Thanks

[Grimes]

P-19 for search radar, although the Fan Song seems to be able to acquire targets without it at the moment. Multiple launchers is recommended due to each launcher only having a single missile. Currently it does not reload. Skill heavily appears to factor into engagements, I've seen average skill sams hold fire for much longer than higher skill.

[Schmidtfire]

Also it seems like SA-2 is a lot weaker against ECM and chaff. If I turn jamming on in the Hornet it won't fire and just keep me locked.

 

Chaff also seems a lot more effective when going defensive.

 

Need to run more tests, but makes a lot of sense updating SAM / ECM behaviour since we soon get the Harm for SEAD missions.

[Reflected]

I set up a few SAM sites with only a fansong and missiles. 3 times out of 5 they don't even go online, even though I'm flying right above them at 10k feet.

[Cik]

fan song is an illuminator, it will not search very well if at all IIRC.

 

 

AFAIK search is mostly mandatory for SA-2.

 

 

i've had some problems getting it to fire at all, even with a bunch of rails pointed at me. as soon as i cross into MEZ it will hard lock me with the fansong and elevate it's rails, but it holds fire as i fly right over it at 15k.

[pepin1234]

I managed to add the P-19 to S-75 group and work.

 

I did not see a SR radar for SAM Rapier and they still work. How come they can Search without SR radar?

[Grimes]

Rapiers have a small radar in each launcher. The bigger radar for it is mostly to get more range or precise information on a given target. The missiles are optically guided for launch.

[pepin1234]

Rapiers have a small radar in each launcher. The bigger radar for it is mostly to get more range or precise information on a given target. The missiles are optically guided for launch.

 

 

thanks.

 

 

about the RD-75 rangefinder, I did not find it in ME. This radar is a plus improvement against ECM. the ECM resistance gonna be implemented? if so, the rest of SAM systems have, or will have this jam damage feature?

 

 

[Grimes]

I'd imagine if they took the time to model something then they plan on adding it to the game. Considering there isn't any definitions lua file for it, its anyones guess how exactly it might function in game.