Questions about Stores config switch

[IulianUM]

When the CatI and CatIII position of the Stores config switch should be used?

For example .

With two empty external wing tanks and an air to air load out, what "Cat switch" realistically should we use? .

And with the center-line tank? . Full or empty? .

 

Thanks .

[Archaic]

CAT III with AG load or tanks. CAT I if only A/A.

[Nealius]

CAT III with anything heavy on the wings. CAT I for everything else (including center tank, IIRC). The warning panel should have STORES CONFIG (or similar) light illuminated when the switch doesn't match the payload.

[DeepSpace]

CAT III with anything heavy on the wings. CAT I for everything else (including center tank, IIRC). The warning panel should have STORES CONFIG (or similar) light illuminated when the switch doesn't match the payload.

 

I'm pretty sure it's not implemented yet. Never seen it on.

[Harker]

I'm pretty sure it's not implemented yet. Never seen it on.

It's not in DCS yet, but this is how it works IRL. I think the Master Caution light should illuminate too. I also think that the FCS doesn't limit you to 5G in DCS yet, as it should if you have CAT III selected.

[QuiGon]

It's not in DCS yet, but this is how it works IRL. I think the Master Caution light should illuminate too.

That makes me wonder though why the switch even exists? If the FCS can sense the heavy weight, then why doesn't it limit itself automatically as it doesn in the Hornet?

[Cupra]

Depends on wheigt. You can also fly CAT I with wing tanks. Ir they are more or less empty it can occur that you get a Master Caution Waring in combination with the "T/O Landing Configuration" light. Then it it time to switch from CATI to CAT III.

 

Can all be found on the original manual that are around on the internet. You just have to look for them. There is no difference between an F-16C from 1996 to an other from 2007. Those systems work the same way since 1974...

[Steph21]

It's not in DCS yet, but this is how it works IRL. I think the Master Caution light should illuminate too. I also think that the FCS doesn't limit you to 5G in DCS yet, as it should if you have CAT III selected.

 

In cruise gains, CAT III selection doesn't limit Max G, it limits Max commanded AOA to 16-18° (25° in CAT I) and Max Roll Rate to ~40% less than in CAT I

9G are allowed under 15° AOA in CAT I and CAT III. Above 15° AOA allowed G decreases.

 

So not like in the Mirage 2000 :)

Edited October 9, 2019 by Steph21

[Harker]

In cruise gains, CAT III selection doesn't limit Max G, it limits Max AOA to 16-18° (25° in CAT I) and Max Roll Rate to ~40% less than in CAT I

9G are allowed under 15° AOA in CAT I and CAT III. Above 15° AOA allowed G decreases.

 

So not like in the Mirage 2000 :)

Good to know, thanks. It's been a while since I looked the specifics up. I might have been thinking of limitations in regards to pilot input, as if you pull more than a certain number of Gs, you can cause structural damage to the airframe and the pylons.

[skouras]

its not simulated correctly

CATIII should be with heavy load preventing the aircraft pulling heavy G and damage it

[Wags]

its not simulated correctly

CATIII should be with heavy load preventing the aircraft pulling heavy G and damage it

 

Hi,

 

No, it is simulated correctly. The switch simply controls the amount and rate of AoA that can be generated. When over 15 degrees in CAT III, only then are there limits to other parameters like roll rate. It is not a G-limiter.

 

Thanks

[Eldur]

In cruise gains, CAT III selection doesn't limit Max G, it limits Max AOA to 16-18° (25° in CAT I) and Max Roll Rate to ~40% less than in CAT I

9G are allowed under 15° AOA in CAT I and CAT III. Above 15° AOA allowed G decreases.

 

So not like in the Mirage 2000 :)

 

Well I've pulled up to 30° of A of A in CAT III already... so it definately is not implemented (correctly).

 

Or should it just limit the AoA buildup rate, so it takes longer to reach a given AoA?

[Wags]

Well I've pulled up to 30° of A of A in CAT III already... so it definately is not implemented (correctly).

 

Or should it just limit the AoA buildup rate, so it takes longer to reach a given AoA?

 

AoA rate. It's a function to keep the aircraft from departing.

 

Thanks

[Steph21]

Well I've pulled up to 30° of A of A in CAT III already... so it definately is not implemented (correctly).

 

Or should it just limit the AoA buildup rate, so it takes longer to reach a given AoA?

 

I've worded it wrongly, it's maximum commanded AOA (post edited). Not the maximum AOA you can get in the plane.

[Harlikwin]

It's not in DCS yet, but this is how it works IRL. I think the Master Caution light should illuminate too. I also think that the FCS doesn't limit you to 5G in DCS yet, as it should if you have CAT III selected.

 

I think it does. I've been bomb hauling with the F16 for the most part, and I'm limited to 5 or 5.5g when hauling back full on the stick in those configs. However I think it might auto switch to cat-1 once they are expended (for the one AA engagment I had after dropping bombs).

[Steph21]

I think it does. I've been bomb hauling with the F16 for the most part, and I'm limited to 5 or 5.5g when hauling back full on the stick in those configs. However I think it might auto switch to cat-1 once they are expended (for the one AA engagment I had after dropping bombs).

 

Available G will be reduced in function of your AOA. As AOA increases, the maximum allowable positive g decreases.

But the store config switch itself is not a G Limiter. It just changes value of AOA/G, Roll Rate, Yaw Rate, Rudder Authority limiters of FLCS.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Steph21

[Eagle7907]

From what I understand this isn't completely implemented. According to the -1, the jet should know if any Cat III stores are present and it should cue the pilot to flip the switch either if switch is in wrong category for detected stores or when Cat III stores are not detected/expended. Otherwise, the limiters seem to be working.

[LJQCN101]

Hi,

 

When over 15 degrees in CAT III, only then are there limits to other parameters like roll rate.

 

Thanks

 

Hi Wags,

 

Just curious about the current roll rate limiter implementation.

 

I thought the roll rate is linearly reduced above 15 deg AOA regardless of CAT I/III since it is to reduce inertia roll-coupling moment and prevent roll departure, together with other feedback such as dynamic pressure and elevator position (and possibly rudder position in later DFLCS versions)?

 

I only have a pretty-old block 25 DFLCS diagram and there's a 134-ish deg/s decrease on maximum commanded roll rate when CAT III is selected. So according to your comment, this reduction only applies above 15 deg AOA?

 

[Deano87]

Hi Wags,

 

Just curious about the current roll rate limiter implementation.

 

I thought the roll rate is linearly reduced above 15 deg AOA regardless of CAT I/III since it is to reduce inertia roll-coupling moment and prevent roll departure, together with other feedback such as dynamic pressure and elevator position (and possibly rudder position in later DFLCS versions)?

 

I only have a pretty-old block 25 DFLCS diagram and there's a 134-ish deg/s decrease on maximum commanded roll rate when CAT III is selected. So according to your comment, this reduction only applies above 15 deg AOA?

 

[ATTACH]218992[/ATTACH]

 

The Block 50 manual I totally don’t have says that CAT III reduces commanded roll rate by approximately 40% of Cat I limits at all times and further reductions are result of AOA, airspeed, tail position and rudder input.

 

It certainly seems to match what happens in sim. Although the roll rate may even be a bit too slow in sim currently, it’s really quite slow in Cat III, even a clean aircraft.

[VampireNZ]

I think it does. I've been bomb hauling with the F16 for the most part, and I'm limited to 5 or 5.5g when hauling back full on the stick in those configs. However I think it might auto switch to cat-1 once they are expended (for the one AA engagment I had after dropping bombs).

 

Not quite. I can happily pull 8.5G in Cat III, and it doesn't auto-switch.

 

I was under the impression that you would get a CONFIG Master Caution if in Cat III and you expend all your A-G stores/deplete your external tanks...but not seen it in DCS to date.

[Eagle7907]

Questions about Stores config switch

 

Not quite. I can happily pull 8.5G in Cat III, and it doesn't auto-switch.

 

I was under the impression that you would get a CONFIG Master Caution if in Cat III and you expend all your A-G stores/deplete your external tanks...but not seen it in DCS to date.

 

 

 

Correct. The jet knows what stores are onboard. It will throw the stores config caution if the switch is not set correctly. You can always over g regardless of the switch set.

 

 

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Edited October 10, 2019 by Eagle7907

[Bouli306]

Correct. The jet knows what stores are onboard. It will throw the stores config caution if the switch is not set correctly. You can always over g regardless of the switch set.

 

 

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Wel.."the jet knows" is not completely true. It just looks at the SMS and the config that is programmed there.

 

Also some configs (block dependent) will produce a Stores Config light but pilots may accept the light. But that is specifically shown in the config manual (~1500 pages).

[Eagle7907]

Questions about Stores config switch

 

Wel.."the jet knows" is not completely true. It just looks at the SMS and the config that is programmed there.

 

 

 

Also some configs (block dependent) will produce a Stores Config light but pilots may accept the light. But that is specifically shown in the config manual (~1500 pages).

 

 

 

Uh, okay? That’s what I meant. How else would it know what stores are loaded?

 

Yes they MAY accept the caution. However the pilot is also responsible for any damage that may occur by doing so. (Ie carpet dance, hearing, a talking to, spankin)

 

 

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Edited October 10, 2019 by Eagle7907

[Bouli306]

Uh, okay? That’s what I meant. How else would it know what stores are loaded?

 

Yes they MAY accept the caution. However the pilot is also responsible for any damage that may occur by doing so. (Ie carpet dance, hearing, a talking to, spankin)

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

Well you have people thinking that the Viper simply senses the stores. But in real rime you coulid program something totally different in the SMS and let the jet think it is CAT1 while the real stores are a CAT 3 configuration.

 

What i means was that some stores are CAT1 stores however the jet produces a Stores configuration light. Pilots can accept that.

 

The Cat switch does not limit G. It only gives more safety margin in the flight envelope by limiting AOA and rollrate for example.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Bouli306

[Eagle7907]

Questions about Stores config switch

 

Well you have people thinking that the Viper simply senses the stores. But in real rime you coulissen program something totally different in the SMS and let the jet thinking it is CAT1 while the real stores are a CAT 3 configuratie.

 

 

 

What i means was that some stores are CAT1 stores however the jet producers a Stores configuratie switch. Pilots can accept that.

 

 

 

The Cat switch does not limit G. It only gives more safety margin in the flight envelope by limiting AOA and rollrate for example.

 

 

 

Sigh. Okay. That’s not at all what I even said.

 

And again, you just reiterated what I’ve previously said. Not in the mood to argue semantics.

 

Jesus, you got to be a damn lawyer to even post on here. A major turn off.

 

 

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Edited October 10, 2019 by Eagle7907