Thank you ED for the new AI!

[sylkhan]

I'm with you, but I remember reading that using PFM for all AI aircraft would prove to be too much for the CPU.

Not need, SFM is more than enough for AI.

They just need to adjust AI performances, and AI logic.

[Exorcet]

Not need, SFM is more than enough for AI.

They just need to adjust AI performances, and AI logic.

Indeed. SFM is only a problem in and of itself in a few specific areas, like the lack of torque with prop aircraft, and the lack of low speed departures. Both of those things could be fixed without going all the way to PFM AI models.

 

 

In any case, branching out from my initial gun testing to dogfight testing, the AI changes are really good. The biggest change at all seems to be the removal of the AI's innate knowledge of its target speed, which lead to them performing endless loops as soon as they had a 1 knot speed advantage over you. Dogfighting feels so much more natural than before, it's night and day.

[Snappy]

Indeed. SFM is only a problem in and of itself in a few specific areas, like the lack of torque with prop aircraft, and the lack of low speed departures. Both of those things could be fixed without going all the way to PFM AI models.

 

 

In any case, branching out from my initial gun testing to dogfight testing, the AI changes are really good. The biggest change at all seems to be the removal of the AI's innate knowledge of its target speed, which lead to them performing endless loops as soon as they had a 1 knot speed advantage over you. Dogfighting feels so much more natural than before, it's night and day.

 

Don‘t agree at all.The SFM in itself is a problem and is lacking in more areas than „minor“/finer things like prop eng torque and departures.

 

 

Amongst other things,the stellar acceleration from near stall speed to high speed for aircraft which aren‘t capable of that is one huge issue, which makes low speed , high aoa fights completely unrealistic and funless, as the A.I. regains energy absurdly .

 

 

Besides in my experience, even with the latest update, after their opening moves the AI quickly resorts to their usual unrealistic constant looping, (at least with A.I. in F-5 and later gen aircraft)

Yea calculating PFMs for A.I. would certainly put additional strain on the cpu,but then again , if DCS would support multiple cores , the impact would be dampened.

Certainly hope the A.I.will eventually be equipped with PFM as it would make the sim hugely more realistic, especially for the users that mostly play single player.

Don‘t think that minor tweaks to the present system would have the effect.

But still appreciate ED working on this badly overdue overhaul.

 

 

regards,

 

 

Snappy.

[Mars Exulte]

Snappy, you don't seem to understand what a PFM or SFM actually are. The AI does not need full ''wind tunnel'' style modeling. That's a fact. The absence of that level of detail is wholly unnoticeable. It is literally a collossal waste of resources to do that.

 

None of the things you mention require such a thing, merely the tweaking of the existing FM. Protip: virtually every simulator out there has what we would consider a SFM. Yet, they all work just fine. The FM needs tweaking, that's it.

[Exorcet]

Don‘t agree at all.The SFM in itself is a problem and is lacking in more areas than „minor“/finer things like prop eng torque and departures.

I wouldn't consider those minor things. The AI actively abuses the lack of punishment from either effect.

 

 

 

Amongst other things,the stellar acceleration from near stall speed to high speed for aircraft which aren‘t capable of that is one huge issue, which makes low speed , high aoa fights completely unrealistic and funless, as the A.I. regains energy absurdly .

This more likely due to poorly set SFM parameters. PFM would be just as bad if the lift/drag values were wrong. Also don't forget that player aircraft were SFM at one point far back in time. They didn't display the issues that the AI does, or at least not as badly.

 

Besides in my experience, even with the latest update, after their opening moves the AI quickly resorts to their usual unrealistic constant looping, (at least with A.I. in F-5 and later gen aircraft)

My last bout of testing involved the F-15 and Su-27. I was in the F-15, the Flanker did loop, but not eternally and surprisingly it did go vertical with an energy disadvantage. It also tried to force me to overshoot a couple of times by slowing down with the airbrake. It wouldn't surprised me if the AI performance varied on a plane by plane basis, so maybe I'll look at the F-5 later.

 

 

 

 

 

Yea calculating PFMs for A.I. would certainly put additional strain on the cpu,but then again , if DCS would support multiple cores , the impact would be dampened.

Certainly hope the A.I.will eventually be equipped with PFM as it would make the sim hugely more realistic, especially for the users that mostly play single player.

Don‘t think that minor tweaks to the present system would have the effect.

But still appreciate ED working on this badly overdue overhaul.

 

 

regards,

 

 

Snappy.

Full PFM for the AI would be fantastic, but I don't feel that it's realistic or necessary, even with multi CPU support. A simpler version of the player PFM might be possible, where the AI aircraft is broken down into components but at a coarser level than player aircraft. However finding the balance between performance, accuracy, and coding time might be more complicated in that case.

[Snappy]

Snappy, you don't seem to understand what a PFM or SFM actually are. The AI does not need full ''wind tunnel'' style modeling. That's a fact. The absence of that level of detail is wholly unnoticeable. It is literally a collossal waste of resources to do that.

 

None of the things you mention require such a thing, merely the tweaking of the existing FM. Protip: virtually every simulator out there has what we would consider a SFM. Yet, they all work just fine. The FM needs tweaking, that's it.

 

You‘re quite arrogant, I like that in a fighter pilot...rolleyes, not.

Well unless you were personally involved with developement of ED various classes of fm , neither can you know or understand which involves what beyond the surface.Besides you missed my point anyway.

 

Regarding your „pro“ tip:Well you can call other sims‘ fm simplified too all day long if you like , but some of those do a way better job than the current DCS sfm in simulating jetfighter opponents..

 

While wind tunnel style ( your words, not mine) models may be overkill for A.I.,what is obvious is, the present SFM is severly lacking in many areas.

If it can be brought up to an acceptable level, fine, but at least all the aircraft which are flyable modules should have the A.I. use the PFM , since its available already anyway, it would be waste not to apply it.

 

 

If some Il-76 or Bear Bomber has an SFM I don‘t mind as much.

 

 

@Exorcet

 

 

Sorry, you‘re right.Minor issues is a subjective assessment, if you do lots of warbird flying it’s probably a bigger issue.Point taken.

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Snappy

.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Snappy

[M1Combat]

If it can be brought up to an acceptable level, fine, but at least all the aircraft which are flyable modules should have the A.I. use the PFM , since its available already anyway, it would be waste not to apply it.

 

No... it would be a waste to apply it. Like Zhukov said.

 

 

Adjusting the AI version of the SFM would be better for many reasons, worse for many also. Ultimately what's needed is a model that doesn't allow the AI to do things that a human can't do. "Pro Tip" :)... We have that. Adjustments to how the AI is applied to what we have in the SFM will suffice quite well for that. Using the PFM would also be fine (but with many issues that would arise from doing that) but would use a ton of resources (in many areas) and not be noticeable in almost all situations.

 

 

Well unless you were personally involved with developement of ED various classes of fm , neither can you know or understand which involves what beyond the surface.

 

That's not really quite true either. There is very good information on each FM and how they differ. Maybe you'd call that "surface" info, maybe not so I'll give you this one because of its subjective nature.

[Ironhand]

Interesting to read this thread but I think that some folks are looking at the AI flight behavior and think that’s the standard flight model. It’s not. The FC aircraft many of us enjoy began their lives with the SFM. While the SFM was not as fine tuned as the current PFM and made it often feel as if you were flying on rails, I guarantee that you could not pull the shenanigans the current AI does. There’s much more to it than which flight model is used.

[M1Combat]

There’s much more to it than which flight model is used.

 

Exactly.

[streakeagle]

Focusing on the flight model:

 

Accurately modeling the FM to a highly detailed level is what draws me to any flight sim. The original flight model for LOMAC/Flaming Cliffs, now called the SFM, was never good enough for me to enjoy flying, despite so many other excellent aspects of those games. Only the retrofitting of the PFMs to the FC3 aircraft has finally made it worth my time to fly those airplanes.

 

But it is absolutely impractical to use hyper-realistic PFMs with AI. It not only requires more processing for the physics calculations multiplied by the number of AI aircraft, but also requires more processing for the AI to correctly decide on throttle, stick, and rudder pedal positions to "fly" the aircraft as a player would. But it is not impossible to make a much simpler flight model that still "hits the numbers" from the flight manuals and looks convincing enough to maintain immersion and present the player with realistic challenges from green to ace AI pilots.

 

I can name at least two older jet air combat sims whose flight models for AI are far superior to DCS World. I can also name many others that are as bad or worse.

 

Focus off of the flight model:

 

Even if the flight model is decent, other aspects of AI behavior can ruin the experience. Are they able to see/track everything 100% of the time with situational awareness far beyond any ace human pilot? Or are they too blind? Can their tactics and precision be scaled to their rated experience level? Do they ever miss when firing weapons? Do they always miss when firing weapons?

 

It is extremely challenging to make convincing AI that is scalable from green pilots to aces and able to handle various types of aircraft ranging from subsonic, guns only WW2 fighters to Mach 2 missile armed fighters to helicopters and attack aircraft.

 

Hopefully, Eagle Dynamics can keep improving AI over the years to keep up with their extremely diverse aircraft and weapons and state of the art program code for modeling AI. No matter how much time and money is spent, neither the FMs nor the AI pilots will ever be perfect, but they can and should steadily improve over the years to come.

[Tiramisu]

It is a little bit offtopic, but I have a question: Has ED tried to mimic human behavior with machine learning? The statistical data could be collected from real players and it could solve both the intelligence and the realism problems of the AI.

[M1Combat]

I agree Strike...

 

The AI and how it fights and even the tools it uses to fight can , IMO, be fudged. As long as it's VERY believable none of the rest should matter. It can't be allowed to over or under perform and it needs to be "smart" enough to make you work based on the level it is set to. It shouldn't be overly predictable.

 

That doesn't sound like an easy task to me :).

[Pikey]

So to go along with the newsletter, the AI have their new FM called the "GFM".

 

 

Also reading through, it looks like some folks didnt notice the difference. This could be that not all planes had it working on them, or something else.

 

 

Some people definitely did notice the changes, like the close in dogfighting.

 

 

It may be that watching the AI after this many years it's easier for me, but I certainly didn't see the "looping" on the airframes I looked at.

 

 

Tacview is completely different and much better.

[pimp]

I posted this in the newsletter thread, but I'm wonder if the new GFM will help with formation transition for the AI. For example, currently if y'all are flying close line abreast and you tell your wingman to go trail, he warps behind you in a VERY unrealistic way. It temporarily destroys immersion. :)

[Exorcet]

So to go along with the newsletter, the AI have their new FM called the "GFM".

 

 

Also reading through, it looks like some folks didnt notice the difference. This could be that not all planes had it working on them, or something else.

 

 

As far as AI goes, I'm wondering if there is some placebo effect. Only gunnery was really mentioned in the update, and that did change. Maneuvering or tactics weren't really mentioned.

 

 

I did go back and forth between Beta and Stable to compare AI and the Beta AI seemed to be better outside of just gunnery, but at the same time it the difference varied with aircraft. The loopiest of offenders, the MiG-15, still wanted to loop me while I had more interesting results with WWII aircraft and 4th gen fighters.

 

 

In any case AI is being worked on and that's great news.

 

 

I posted this in the newsletter thread, but I'm wonder if the new GFM will help with formation transition for the AI. For example, currently if y'all are flying close line abreast and you tell your wingman to go trail, he warps behind you in a VERY unrealistic way. It temporarily destroys immersion. :)

It's possible. The AI SFM is probably a carryover from at least LOMAC where they did the same rubberbanding. However I think the AI's impossible formation maneuvers might have been added to make up for the player's inability to communicate with them while flying. If the AI doesn't know what the player is doing, it will be hard for it to fly formation. The point of GFM sounds like it's to move away from scripted flying to making AI aircraft actual physics bound objects. This is great for stalls, p-factor, high AoA, wake interactions, etc, but the complications of formation flying will still remain.

[Bagpipe]

I noticed alot in the spitfire so i have just went out and bought the F86 Sabre to see how dogfighting in a jet feels with the new WIP AI system. Should be a hoot.

[bell_rj]

Hmmm. If they get this GFM sorted then I gotta say I think I'd be up for buying the F-86. Or perhaps the Mig 15. 50's era dogfighting does sound fun.

[Tiramisu]

After flying against the WW2 AI, I must say there have been some significant improvements. They are making interesting maneuvers during dogfight, which feels more immersive and challenging for me. However, the AI is still missing the ability to make barrel rolls to evade enemy fire (like against missiles or guns).

 

Also I have not noticed any AI improvement for the modern fighters. Does anyone know which aircraft got the improved AI?

[Ziptie]

Also I have not noticed any AI improvement for the modern fighters. Does anyone know which aircraft got the improved AI?

 

I’ve noticed a difference with modern fighters. From F16A, to F15, to MiG(s), SU-3x, nearly all of them really. I think if the AI difficulty is set lower - the difference might not be as noticeable.

 

Just some of the behavior(s) I’ve noticed:

 

Improved defensive maneuvers against missiles, improved dogfighting, improved flight behaviors (terrain masking, etc). Have been flying exclusively on MP servers, handful of single player flights.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Don

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

Thanks so much for the feedback, when I read the changes I was super excited, and a little nervous about how you guys would see it. I am glad that most of the feedback has been good, and that it doesn't sound like it will need much tweaking. I am excited about more AI tweaks in the future, keep the feedback coming, good or bad, I/we want to hear it!

 

 

The new AI behavior everyone is talking about (at least when it comes to missile defence,) is that the AI will actively break away from an incoming missile at 30% missile max range or if the missile is 10nm away from impact, (whichever comes first). This new method works great for long range missiles like the Phoenix or Amos (since 30% of their range is on the order of almost two dozen miles,) but unfortunately, not so well for most MRM's. It just so happens that 30% of most MRM ranges falls below the 10nm mark below 40000ft which means that there is no change in behavior for AI defence when it comes to MRM's. As of right now, the breakaway maneuver consists of the aircraft pitching up, (a suicide move most of the time,) puting the missile abeam, and then diving for the deck. This type of move usually ends up as a fireball. Again, this provides little to no challenge for those wanting one in singleplayer (Note that this applies to ALL SKILL LEVELS). Essentially you can just get within 15 miles of the target, shoot, and run away. Frankly, this is exactly what the enemy should be doing as well! (For Fox 3's anyway). To address this, I really think that ED should implement an advanced waypoint action allowing the user to input breakaway distance and the type of defence, i.e split s or notch. This would allow for missions to be far more dynamic than they are now and greatly increase the survivability of all AI aircraft.

Please let me know your thoughts

[Ziptie]

I’m not sure - but I see variety of maneuvers from AI when flying online in servers.... Making in unpredictable at times and more enjoyable before. Nothing near like fighting a player, but better than before.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Don (callsign Ziptie)

[VDV]

Do we have new AI models now? Like SA-5 or other air or ground units?

[Niehorst]

When we talk about AI:

 

Isn't is possible to get the leading edge flaps of the AI wingmen IN and the pitch (AoA) just a little down. When you fly in formation with your wingmen it always looks so wrong!

 

Not talking about changing the AI Wingman flightmodel/behaviour, please just make it look right!

This problem exists since ever!

[obious]

Just thought I'd add my two cents. Just set up a quick BFM mission in the F-16C against two F-14Bs (both on Excellent difficulty); merge was at 25k ft @ 450knts

 

Was really impressed that both Tomcats didn't just fly in an endless loop and that fighting against them both was a real challenge.

 

Loved it! Anyone else notice anything similar?

[b0bl00i]

Just thought I'd add my two cents. Just set up a quick BFM mission in the F-16C against two F-14Bs (both on Excellent difficulty); merge was at 25k ft @ 450knts

 

Was really impressed that both Tomcats didn't just fly in an endless loop and that fighting against them both was a real challenge.

 

Loved it! Anyone else notice anything similar?

 

I've been testing extensively against a MIG29 (one of the quick start missions for the Hornet).. the AI always does the same thing if I make my turn in the beginning. feels like watching a repeat) After some time it reverts to looping with bizarr energy management (like gaining energy while I'm falling like a rock). AI is on max skill level.