[REPORTED]MIG 29S has huge bounce on landing

[schurem]

Guys, please, let's stay on topic of simulation of bad landings, which is slamming nose wheel into the tarmac. That makes it bounce while it should break the nose gear instead if enough force is applied. If not enough force - it should not look like bounce amplifier - rather force dumpener instead.

 

The simulation of good landing (or too fast) is perfectly fine as presented numerous times. It's not about making it easier - it's about making it more realistic.

 

Indeed. I would like to express my gratitude to YoYo for engaging with us on this issue. Perhaps we will find a common ground some day. In the meantime, I will be doing disastrous cirquit training in machine of glorious soviet design :pilotfly:

[Yo-Yo]

Guys, please, let's stay on topic of simulation of bad landings, which is slamming nose wheel into the tarmac. That makes it bounce while it should break the nose gear instead if enough force is applied. If not enough force - it should not look like bounce amplifier - rather force dumpener instead.

 

The simulation of good landing (or too fast) is perfectly fine as presented numerous times. It's not about making it easier - it's about making it more realistic.

 

The landing is realistic that causes some frustration and misunderstanding. As I told you and as you can see at numerous RL landing video the final flaring requires a lot of stick pulling. If you anticipate this movement and perform it keeping touchdown attitude, nothing bad will happen and you never strike the nose wheel.

if you think that you can do it in MiG-29 as in F-16 or even in Su-27 by freezing the stick at flaring - it's a bad idea.

[draconus]

The landing is realistic that causes some frustration and misunderstanding. As I told you and as you can see at numerous RL landing video the final flaring requires a lot of stick pulling. If you anticipate this movement and perform it keeping touchdown attitude, nothing bad will happen and you never strike the nose wheel.

if you think that you can do it in MiG-29 as in F-16 or even in Su-27 by freezing the stick at flaring - it's a bad idea.

Can you please ask someone to explain and translate my post. It seems like we hit some language barrier here. I only insist on checking nosewheel touchdown/slam behavior - something you won't see landing the aircraft correctly.

Edited July 16, 2020 by draconus

[schurem]

I have tested it some more this afternoon. When you touchdown within parameters and carefully keep the nose up while not scraping the tail, it touches down ok. If however you let it slam on touchdown, it launches you back up like a rocket thruster in the nose.

[pepin1234]

The landing is realistic that causes some frustration and misunderstanding. As I told you and as you can see at numerous RL landing video the final flaring requires a lot of stick pulling. If you anticipate this movement and perform it keeping touchdown attitude, nothing bad will happen and you never strike the nose wheel.

if you think that you can do it in MiG-29 as in F-16 or even in Su-27 by freezing the stick at flaring - it's a bad idea.

 

Forget the Stick back, speed or whatever you wanted to teach us. I appreciate you teaching work. I land MiG-29 problem less just in certain situation I am stressed I can’t lower the speed enough happen the hyper bounces as a f*cking kangaroo.

 

Stop telling us how landing MiG-29. Please focus on the thread main tittle. “The bounce” is happening is not happening in the same way to others modules with PFM.

 

While F-16 and F-18 have a regular shock absorber, MiG-29 have a catapult right in the front landing gear...?

 

We are not discussing how landing MiG-29. Just explain to us why this bounce to the sky happen only to Mig-29 is such a way?

 

Thank you

[Yo-Yo]

Forget the Stick back, speed or whatever you wanted to teach us. I appreciate you teaching work. I land MiG-29 problem less just in certain situation I am stressed I can’t lower the speed enough happen the hyper bounces as a f*cking kangaroo.

 

Stop telling us how landing MiG-29. Please focus on the thread main tittle. “The bounce” is happening is not happening in the same way to others modules with PFM.

 

While F-16 and F-18 have a regular shock absorber, MiG-29 have a catapult right in the front landing gear...?

 

We are not discussing how landing MiG-29. Just explain to us why this bounce to the sky happen only to Mig-29 is such a way?

 

Thank you

Can you show the landing you strike f-16 or 18 the way you strike poor MiG? And, by the way, do you realize that such way of landing is NOWAY in any aircraft?

[Top Jockey]

Can you show the landing you strike f-16 or 18 the way you strike poor MiG? And, by the way, do you realize that such way of landing is NOWAY in any aircraft?

 

Hello Yo-Yo,

 

That isn't the point.

The point is; regardless of the way the aircraft is landed, for the majority of people the exaggerated bouncing behavior of the front landing gear is not correct / realistic.

[schurem]

F-18 is no fair comparison, we slam that one hard as it's a carrier aircraft. It's built for rough, no flare landings. F-16 is a better comparison. And no, that one does not bounce up if you land it roughly.

 

I do have to admit, it's a fun challenge getting MiG-29 landings right. It just doesn't fit with the way other planes behave in the game. If they all bounced, fine. Challenge accepted. If the nosegear would break or twist on rough landing, fine, challenge accepted. But this catapult rocket nosegear we got? Doesn't feel right man.

Edited July 16, 2020 by schurem

[Yo-Yo]

Hello Yo-Yo,

 

That isn't the point.

The point is; regardless of the way the aircraft is landed, for the majority of people the exaggerated bouncing behavior of the front landing gear is not correct / realistic.

 

The point is that under any circumstances the front wheel should not touch the ground first. No matter, if you drop the plane to the carrier deck or flare it over the runway.

[HWasp]

The F-16 and F-18 tracks I posted previously play differently with the new patch, but still they show that you can abuse those planes to the extreme and survive with no bounce at all, minor damage or none even... Do you think that is realistic?

 

 

Look at that vid: plane is dropped from 20ft or 6 meters, meaning an impact at 11 m/s or 2160 feet per minute

In my track I impacted over 2500 feet per minute (and nose gear first!!!) and really nothing happens to the F-18 in DCS

 

The F-16 track is even worse, that is not even a carrier aircraft.

 

After abusing the F16 and F18 like that I'm starting to think that they are the ones with unrealistic forgiveness for bad landings....

Edited July 16, 2020 by HWasp

[pepin1234]

The point is that under any circumstances the front wheel should not touch the ground first. No matter, if you drop the plane to the carrier deck or flare it over the runway.

 

We can keep discussion a whole week while you continue answer things we never mention on this thread. We are not that stupid to ask for something as touchdown with front landing gear first. One more time... please focus on the regular landing when we touchdown a bit speedy and after touchdown with rear landing gear then the front landing gear make us jump and in some cases we got killed.

 

Can you answer this exactly please. Why happen that only to MiG-29?

[HWasp]

We can keep discussion a whole week while you continue answer things we never mention on this thread. We are not that stupid to ask for something as touchdown with front landing gear first. One more time... please focus on the regular landing when we touchdown a bit speedy and after touchdown with rear landing gear then the front landing gear make us jump and in some cases we got killed.

 

Can you answer this exactly please. Why happen that only to MiG-29?

 

MiG-29 touch down at 220 kts. Is that fast enough? No excessive bouncing, watch the track.

 

There are 2 reasons for the 29 to be jumpy:

 

1. The nose high arrangement of the landing gear---> you strike the nose gear easier.

2. The elevators loose some of their effectiveness raising the nose entering the ground effect---> if you don't counter that, nose drops.

 

That being said, yes the spring force might be a bit too much, but look at the bright side: the MiG-29 module can teach people to get rid of their bad landing habits.

mig29220.trk

Edited July 16, 2020 by HWasp

[Ironhand]

The point is that under any circumstances the front wheel should not touch the ground first...

It doesn’t have to touch first. You just need to let the nose come down hard after the main wheels touch. That’s what’s causing the consternation. I never noticed the issue myself until people started complaining and I tried to reproduce it. Again, it’s the front wheel hitting hard, not necessarily first, that causes the front strut to act like a pogo stick

[discwalker]

Thanks Ironhand for clarification.

I practiced landings for a lot of time, mainly with Su-27.

But i'm still uncomfortable to land MiG-29 because this huge love to huge bounces at touchdown of the nosewheel at the wrong speed, it's a real punisher.

EDIT: My key to a safe MiG29 landing is a big dose of nose up trim, because the plane is not forgiving in sudden pitch changes, early nosewheel touchdown (sink) could happen too easily.

Edited July 17, 2020 by discwalker

[Smith]

Me, a car suspension engineer, anlysed the landing behavior of diffrent DCS aircraft and I found out that the planes bounce when the Nose wheel hits the bump stop of its suspension. But for most planes that is quite hard to achive, as you have to land nose down first what makes the the sink rate too high and the landing gear will just collapse. In the case for the MiG-29 there are a few things that make it easy to hit the bump stop of its nose gear:

1. Because the Nose wheel is very long compared to the main landing gear you need a quit good amount of AoA to keep the nose wheel away from the surface. You don't need to push the nose down to make the nose weel hit the ground first.

2. Springs are very soft compared to other planes. Even on normal landings the MiG-29 needs almost the whole travel of its suspension. So if you touch down a bit to hard you hit the bump stop of the suspension.

3. The Nose wheel of the MiG-29 only has a very short suspension travel compared to F/A-18 or Su-33. For some reason the MiG-29 hits the bump stop before it is fully compressed. Is this on the real MiG-29 the same? On the 3D model you can see that there is still half of the suspension showing, while on a Su-33 fully compressed you can clearly see that its fully compressed. I think that if the MiG-29 would have the whole supsension available it would not be that easy to hit the bump stop and the bounce would be gone.

 

MiG-29 Decompressed

 

MiG-29 Compressed: You can clearly see that there is still a long way to go. Is this on the real plane the same that it hits the bump stop already at this point?

 

Su-33 Decompressed

 

Su-33 Compressed. You can see that it uses the full suspension.

 

Here is a sequence of a bounce when the Su-33 hits the bump stop. It happens the same as with the MiG-29, but you relly need to land nose down first, which even a bad pilot would not do:

 

 

 

 

 

 

On the F/A-18 the Nose wheel just colapses when landing nose down first. i could not land hard enough to hit the bump stop without braking the nose wheel.

 

Here is my testing session.

MiG-29 Nose down bump stop bounce slow motion at 43:00

MiG-29 good landing slow motion at 46:30

Su-33 Nose down bump stop bounce at 53:20

F-16 session at 21:00

F-18 session at 57:00

 

I really like the landing behavior of the MiG-29. It feels natural and lively. But i think the nose wheel should either just collapse when hitting the bump stop after a bad or too hard landing, or the suspension travel should be looked over, maybe it is too short compared to the external 3D model.

[schurem]

Nice job mate. I think we also might need a critical look at the amount of force a bounce imparts. I know the 29 isnt a heavy plane, but to me it feels like the bounce is too forceful.

[Tom Kazansky]

@Smith: nice engineering :thumbup:

 

is worth a look by the devs imho.

 

(EDIT: small request for your videos: next time plz enable the info bar in the external views to allow observing flight data all the time.)

Edited July 17, 2020 by Tom Kazansky

[draconus]

@Smith: so you found Su-33 bounce too and that wheels go under tarmac, a lot to investigate I see. Since the Mig-29 is easiest to lift the nose during take-off it also jumps (rotate) highest during nose touchdowns. It has to be related so it's probably not really high bounce but huge rotation force. We won't see any RL video of this behavior though.

[pepin1234]

Thanks Smith. You made one hour video wow. Well... is obvious...

 

this is epic and funny

 

Olympic gold medal in high jump for MiG-29, Silver for Su-33. F-16 and F-18 disqualified, too much programmed code to not jump well as high MiG-29 do.

 

F-18 working hard (identity the girl is asking if F-18 is ok after the fail...:megalol:) :

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by pepin1234

[Baz000]

Well something I noticed with the MiG-29 when I landed just a little short of the runway into the grass was the nose wheel had no bounce until I had it touch the concrete runway surface... See for yourself here:

 

at the 7:00 mark you can see what I mean, when I hit short of the runway the nose didn't pogo up until the next strike on the concrete runway

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4412598&postcount=119

 

Also, I think in the future ED should give us more information about these airplanes in the .PDF manuals they provide... If a plane has particular special landing techniques and parameters we should be informed as users so we aren't confused and get frustrated. I really love the DCS manuals but I wish there was more information included with them like performance information.

 

Also hope in the future we can have better tire explosion effects, they looked kinda weak in Yo-Yos video, IRL this is such a violent event and it even can send chunks of rubber into your own plane damaging systems and punching holes into things if you get large enough pieces of rubber

Edited July 18, 2020 by Baz000

[Yo-Yo]

You are right, there is some points that should have been mentioned more detailed.

But some points are very common for any airplane both in RL and DCS: the landing can be with bounce even if you land at main wheels with excessive vertical speed, or you was pulling the stick and not managed to freeze it at the touchdown, etc. The first rule is FREEZE THE STICK, and the plane will do the rest if your speed is about right. The landing will not perfect but safe.

You can control your landing attitude as the plane begins to sink for the second touchdown but very careful.

 

4-13 and 10-54 show that the stick was released forward that is common and severe mistake in this situation. The plane strikes again and this strike will be more violent than the first.

Edited July 18, 2020 by Yo-Yo

[Airhunter]

Did a few sorties yesterday with 3 successful and buttery smooth landings. No bounce whatsoever. Maybe it was improved maybe not, couldn't really tell.

[Yo-Yo]

Did a few sorties yesterday with 3 successful and buttery smooth landings. No bounce whatsoever. Maybe it was improved maybe not, couldn't really tell.

 

Nothing was changed. You became a master.

[Airhunter]

Nothing was changed. You became a master.

 

Never had any issues landing it in the past either. :thumbup: Unless I'm deadsticking it in. :music_whistling:

[xHUGHBACCAx]

Good Evening shurem!

 

 

If I can help, I will gladly do so! The MiG-29 does in fact behave a bit differently at low speeds. Keep in mind that it does not have fly by wire, yet was designed to have a high degree of pitch authority even at very low speeds. Therein lies the issue of landing difficulty. Here is what I do to finesse those Fulcrum landings every single time.

-Start your approach and maintain roughly 350-375 kph

-Gear and Flaps down under 350 kph

-Trim the aircraft so that the nose is either level or just barely dips on a 350 kph approach.

-Touchdown at ~280 kph (plus or minus 20 kph depending on fuel level) and remember to never push the nose down. You should only have to control your descent by resisting the nose from falling to hard. Make sure the rear wheels touch first obviously but also remember to slightly flare just as the wheels touch and keep just a very tiny bit of throttle in as you land, if you pull to idle then you will certainly fall quickly.

 

I promise you very very good landings even with short notice with just a little practice! Good luck and happy flying! I hope this helps

Edited July 18, 2020 by xHUGHBACCAx