F4 PHANTOM

[upyr1]

17 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

As I've said before, I think the best Phantom variants that will please the majority of people are the F-4E (block 53 or later) and the F-4J/F-4S.

 

The F-4E was the most prolific and most produced Phantom, and a 70s variant would fit very nicely with the existing MiG-21bis, as well as replacing the god-awful LOMAC-era model.

 

The F-4J/S is a carrier capable variant, giving the navy guys something to play with.

 

 

I think those 2 variants at least are 'must haves', I wouldn't necessarily expect them to be bundled as part of the same module. Instead, do something as suggested on upyr1's thread, whereby your first variant is full price and then from there on in, subsequent variants are discounted, with how much they're discounted being on a sliding scale, depending on workload.

 

So an F-4E and an F-4J would be very different, but an F-4J and an F-4S would be much more similar.

 

So if you buy the F-4E, the F-4J/S would be more expensive as they're more divergent. But if you buy a J, then the S is much cheaper or vice versa, given that those 2 are more similar).

 

 

Of course, my favourite Phantom variants are going to be the RAF F-4M Phantom FGR.2 and the FAA/RAF F-4K Phantom FG.1, the problem here is that it's probably only British players significantly interested in them. Both are also missing quite a number of stuff to make them fit.

 

 

In any case I think sticking to Phantoms from the 70s, at least for the time being, would be the best path for the Phantom, regardless of variant.

 

Other than the engines how did the Royal Phantoms differ from the US Nany birds? I know they were based off the J.

[Northstar98]

On 3/2/2021 at 2:26 AM, upyr1 said:

Other than the engines how did the Royal Phantoms differ from the US Nany birds? I know they were based off the J.

 

From what I can find:

• Different RWR: Marconi ARI.18228, with the distinctive 'box' on the top of the tail containing antennae (good luck finding anything about it though, the British are notoriously secretive with all of their EW equipment, even on stuff long out of service). EDIT: I think this was added later in the Phantom's life, some photos of the F-4K in fleet air arm service don't have it, and some do. I'm guessing this happened sometime in the early-to-mid 70s.
• Slightly different RADAR & WCS: APG-59/APG-60 w. AWG-11 on the F-4K, APG-61 w. AWG-12 on the F-4M (later, when F-4Ks were retired from FAA service, and transferred to the RAF, they were upgraded with the APG-61 w. AWG-12). Both are modifications of the APG-72/AWG-10 as on most short-nosed Phantoms with larger RADAR antennae. The difference is that the British AWG-11/-12 have AGM-12 and WE.177 capability. The APG-61 w. AWG-12 is an improved APG-60 w. AWG-11, in that it has a better ground mapping mode, and is compatible with the SUU-23/A - though not sure about details. The APG-59/60 on the K is also foldable so it takes up less space on UK carriers, the APG-61 however on the M and later RAF Ks is not.
• MBDA Skyflash capability from 1978 onwards (Skyflash is kinda an AIM-7M equivalent, at least in terms of seeker (both featuring an inverse-monopulse seeker, instead of a conical scanner as in older Sparrows; conical scanners are more susceptible to ground clutter and DECM techniques compared to inverse-monopulse seekers, though I doubt DCS models the difference).
• Related to the engines is the increased size of the air intakes compared to non-RR Spey Phantoms, which reduces the top speed despite the higher thrust.
• The F-4K has a much longer, telescopic nose strut.

 

It also probably uses British weapons, like British GP bombs (which I think comes in 540Ib and 1000Ib types, not sure if they can be fitted with a retarding device (edit the Mk 18 1000Ib does have a retarding device, which I think is a parachute or a ballute), I'm guessing it can also carry BL775 cluster bombs and SNEB 68mm unguided rockets.

 

Fun fact, I used to live right next to a former Phantom base (RAF Leuchars, near Fife in Scotland), though the Phantoms had been gone basically a decade before I was born.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Northstar98

[upyr1]

On 3/2/2021 at 3:48 AM, Northstar98 said:

 

From what I can find:

• Different RWR: Marconi ARI.18228, with the distinctive 'box' on the top of the tail containing antennae (good luck finding anything about it though, the British are notoriously secretive with all of their EW equipment, even on stuff long out of service).
• Slightly different RADAR & WCS: APG-59/APG-60 w. AWG-11 on the F-4K, APG-61 w. AWG-12 on the F-4M (and maybe on later F-4Ks, but only after they had been transferred to the RAF). Both are modifications of the APG-72/AWG-10 as on most short-nosed Phantoms with the larger RADAR, the difference is that they have AGM-12 and WE.177 capability. The APG-61 w. AWG-12 is an improved APG-60 w. AWG-11, in that it has a better ground mapping mode, and is compatible with the SUU-23/A. The APG-59/60 on the K is also foldable so it takes up less space on UK carriers, the APG-61 however is not.
• MBDA Skyflash capability from 1978 onwards (Skyflash is kinda an AIM-7M equivalent, at least in terms of seeker (both featuring an inverse-monopulse seeker, instead of a conical scanner as in older Sparrows; conical scanners are more susceptible to ground clutter and DECM techniques compared to inverse-monopulse seekers, though I doubt DCS models the difference).
• Related to the engines is the increased size of the air intakes compared to non-RR Spey Phantoms, which reduces the top speed despite the higher thrust.
• The F-4K has a much longer, telescopic nose strut.

 

It also probably uses British weapons, like British GP bombs (which I think comes in 540Ib and 1000Ib types, not sure if they can be fitted with a retarding device, they might just be regular bombs), I'm guessing it can also carry BL775 cluster bombs and SNEB 68mm unguided rockets.

 

Fun fact, I used to live right next to a former Phantom base (RAF Leuchars, near Fife in Scotland), though the Phantoms had been gone basically a decade before I was born.

 

Thanks 

[Nodak]

Wasn't just the intakes that got fatter, it was widened all the way back to the tailpipes.  One of the speed features of the phantom was its coke bottle area rule design, which by its design time was pretty much understood and became a feature in succeeding designs, kind of got wiped out in the UK variants.  Spey's needed the extra width since they were turbo fan based design unlike J-79 series.  Your dealing with a customized and the most expensive to produce design, limited production piggy bank breaker.

[Rick50]

Huh... I had no idea there was this much differences between Phantom variants, or that there was significant differences in the airframe external shapes, like wider and narrower noses, longer and shorter tail sections, or a wider fuselage for different turbines?!?!?  I'm glad to have this thread for learning that! Thank you all!!

 

[Nodak]

It was the reason why the UK bought and borrowed F-4J's to guard the Falklands post war, theirs were too painful to pay for.

[Northstar98]

8 hours ago, Nodak said:

It was the reason why the UK bought and borrowed F-4J's to guard the Falklands post war, theirs were too painful to pay for.

 

Uhm, no.

 

The only UK F-4J squadron was No. 74 which was never based in the Falklands; in fact an F-4M squadron was tasked from the UK mainland to the Falklands not the F-4J. This however left a gap for the UK mainland - that's where the UK F-4J Phantoms came in.

 

And the UK F-4J? There were only 15 of them and they had a much shorter service life than the rest of the UK Phantom variants (7 years compared to 22 and 24 for the F-4K and M respectively).

 

It was obviously cheaper to purchase F-4Js from the US because at the time the F-4K and F-4M had been out of production for 15 years (the last was built in 1969) - it was obviously much cheaper to buy US Phantoms to fill the gap than to restart a production line for just a small number of aircraft that weren't far away from being retired anyway.

 

Funny thing is the F-4J was retired before the F-4M, which is what No. 74 transferred to after the F-4J was retired (though only for a year when that too was retired, with the Tornado fully taking its place). No. 74 transferred to an OCU flying the Hawk after the F-4M was retired.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Northstar98

[upyr1]

19 hours ago, Rick50 said:

Huh... I had no idea there was this much differences between Phantom variants, or that there was significant differences in the airframe external shapes, like wider and narrower noses, longer and shorter tail sections, or a wider fuselage for different turbines?!?!?  I'm glad to have this thread for learning that! Thank you all!!

 

The F-4 went through a lot of changes through its long service life. Depending on how much help Eagle or another developer could get from Anakra or Berlin we might have enough information for the Terminator or the ICE- both of which use avionics from the F-18. Though right now I just want some good AI models for the mission editor. 

Edited March 7, 2021 by upyr1

[rkk01]

If ED ever make a UK Phantom...

 

... they’ll need a Jaguar for target practice 

[ebabil]

is it coming ?

 

[Northstar98]

Presumably, NL mentioned that news on it is coming.

[Rick50]

Not any time soon.

 

It MAY come, eventually. The hardcore fighterjocks want it... but... really detailed systems data seems to be difficult to obtain, there are dramatic differences between the two models most people want ( the E and J for doing carrier work and international versions w internal cannons), and these days sales data suggests better revenue from the most modern modules, at least that's what I'm gathering from Nick Grey in an interview.

 

I don't believe that the Phantom has truly been started as a module. And it may be some time before one gets a greenlight, then add about 3 years to complete. Just saying don't hold your breath.

[ebabil]

Yes, it is better not to hold breaths for so long time. But in term of sales, I believe f-4 phantom is one of the most wanted modules among the nominees

[westr]

I hope we get a module with a naval and Air Force variant. I hope it’s the

F-4C and maybe the F-4J. I personally find the F-4E a bit ugly. But the C and the J phantoms were so beautiful. 

[FlankerKiller]

On 4/4/2021 at 3:45 PM, westr said:

I hope we get a module with a naval and Air Force variant. I hope it’s the

F-4C and maybe the F-4J. I personally find the F-4E a bit ugly. But the C and the J phantoms were so beautiful. 

I hope we get a module at all. 

[FlankerKiller]

Honestly I think it would take four variants of the Phantom to do it justice. You need an early Land and sea variant, maybe something from the early Vietnam era, and the the later F-4J, and the F-4E. So something to fight the Mig-19 with, and something for the later cold war. If there can only be one, it should be the E model, but that would suck. Honestly I wish we could also get a very modern updated version with a hud, and AIM-120s. 

[upyr1]

2 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

Honestly I think it would take four variants of the Phantom to do it justice. You need an early Land and sea variant, maybe something from the early Vietnam era, and the the later F-4J, and the F-4E. So something to fight the Mig-19 with, and something for the later cold war. If there can only be one, it should be the E model, but that would suck. Honestly I wish we could also get a very modern updated version with a hud, and AIM-120s. 

I always figured we needed at least 6 Phantoms. The B and D for the early Vietnam period so the MiG-19 will have a good opfor, the J and E for the MiG-21 BIS, at least one Royal Phantom and the ICE or a similarly upgraded E. The G would be awesome but I just don't expect to legally get the documents for it.

[westr]

4 hours ago, FlankerKiller said:

I hope we get a module at all. 

With the numbers of modules that have been released in the last say 6 years I can’t see how at some point the Phantom won’t be done. It’s standing and importance in military aviation is just to significant. And scenario wise, should they explore the Vietnam war era for example how could they leave out the F4, it would be impossible. So I’m sure at some point the F4 will feature, it could be some time though. 

[upyr1]

23 hours ago, westr said:

With the numbers of modules that have been released in the last say 6 years I can’t see how at some point the Phantom won’t be done. It’s standing and importance in military aviation is just to significant. And scenario wise, should they explore the Vietnam war era for example how could they leave out the F4, it would be impossible. So I’m sure at some point the F4 will feature, it could be some time though. 

The issue is getting a good ai gib. Jester may be good for air to air but is clueless with air to ground. The d and e need an AI wso that can aim smart bombs.

[draconus]

21 hours ago, upyr1 said:

Jester may be good for air to air but is clueless with air to ground. The d and e need an AI wso that can aim smart bombs.

Jester is suppose to work with LANTIRN at the end of EA. Just wait and see.

[upyr1]

55 minutes ago, draconus said:

Jester is suppose to work with LANTIRN at the end of EA. Just wait and see.

Oh so in two weeks

[Rick50]

On 4/7/2021 at 5:55 AM, upyr1 said:

always figured we needed at least 6 Phantoms. The B and D for the early Vietnam period so the MiG-19 will have a good opfor, the J and E for the MiG-21 BIS, at least one Royal Phantom and the ICE or a similarly upgraded E. The G would be awesome but I just don't expect to legally get the documents for it.

 

So maybe we'll get all the Phantoms by 2033 then ? Elon will have a city on Mars by then, and maybe he'll buy DCS All The Phantoms Module... in Early Access until 2045!

[Harlikwin]

31 minutes ago, Rick50 said:

 

So maybe we'll get all the Phantoms by 2033 then ? Elon will have a city on Mars by then, and maybe he'll buy DCS All The Phantoms Module... in Early Access until 2045!

 

Imagine living on mars and playing a Vietnam era flight sim, where some features are still classified

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, Rick50 said:

 

So maybe we'll get all the Phantoms by 2033 then ? Elon will have a city on Mars by then, and maybe he'll buy DCS All The Phantoms Module... in Early Access until 2045!

2033 they'll announce 2 more weeks 

[BreakerHUN]

I believe they are waiting for youtube to upgrade backend, because once Phantoms are out, it will be flooded with Iron Eagle 2 dogfight recreations