Raven King Posted March 3, 2020 Posted March 3, 2020 (edited) I got very excited after the official announcement of the A-7 Corsair II, and no doubt that in a couple months I'm gonna be (again) biting chunks out of my desk, waiting for the release of yet another beauty. But, I can't help thinking on the good, old, humble A-4 that that community team, with such good faith and dedication made for us. I understand the mod is not available anymore and is not compatible with the last version of DCS. It kinda hurts a bit, so I'm gonna play the "Make-Pluto-A-Planet-Again" routine and hope for the best. Here is my case: What happened with the Hawk (the british trainer) was sad. I can understand that business are business and if there's too little common ground between two companies, well, those things can happen. But I can imagine it was a bitter turn-off for many. Time for sugar: If there was a way for ED to give the Skyhawk a bit of love and make it at least "pure-client-compatible", the community would just love you. Guaranteed! Even better: if possible, offer it together for free with the Su-25 and the TF-51 in a future DCS version, therefore avoiding "legal complications" (?). Far from being a threat to A-7 sales, the A-4's (and ONLY the A-4's) resurrection idea is an interest case: 1-It gains you the heart of the community by showing even more generosity and honoring the community team. 2-It teases air-to-ground-oriented pilots, who later won't resist the temptation of an upgrade in the form of the A-7. One can almost sarcastically argue "the money you don't need to pay for the A-4 gets you the A-7". What? That if I have an A-7 I don't need an A-4?! C'mon. If that was true, everybody would stick only to the Hornet or the Harrier, which are arguably even better. Truth is that no one wants to miss a single piece of the collection. 3-At a multiplayer mission design level, the A-4 is an excellent partner for the F-5: the Tiger being a good A-A fighter with decent A-G capabilities and the Skyhawk a good striker with decent A-A capabilities (Same applies to the Fishbed/Fitter, Air Force Phantom/Thud, Navy Phantom/Corsair and Tomcat/Hornet combos). 4-To have the A-4 mod is a MUST for the upcoming Falklands Map. There's no way around it and Razbam seems not to have included it in the project, instead concentrating on other aircraft. That says a lot about the success of the Community Skyhawk, and the recognition it really deserves. I know, ED. This is business and you guys gotta earn your daily bread like everybody else. But this exception would -in my estimation- be very cost-effective for you. Is like: "Yeah, here's the money! I buy your Porsche, your Masseratti and your Ferrari!... OK! ...but let me keep my good'ol Volkswagen Beetle". I'm sure I'm not the only one with these thoughts, and if there's a memo I didn't get, I offer my apologies. Please give it a thought. My best regards, Luis Edited March 3, 2020 by Saurophaganax
Mars Exulte Posted March 3, 2020 Posted March 3, 2020 I don't see anything about it being ''unavailable''. It fell out of compatability. So? They'll fix it eventually, I'm sure. Looked like it was still in dev, judgibg by Heclaks latest comments. You don't need to ''make a case for'' anything. It is not threatened by nor does it threaten anything else. That isn't how it works. Any development would take 3-5 years anyway, further rendering that irrelevant. It's simply another wishlist item, no more, no less. Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти. 5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2
Bozon Posted March 3, 2020 Posted March 3, 2020 The A-4E community mod is excellent. I will pay (buy it) if it was officially included in DCS. Its mod status prevent certain things from working (example: the radios) and servers don’t include it because it becomes a requirement of all players who enter to have it installed and manually updated, even if they do not intend to fly it. Pretty please with sugar on top, DCS make this mod into an official module. Most of the work has already been done. I am sure that there is some business model that can allow high quality mods to be included and sold in the store so expenses are covered and even turn a profit for DCS/the developers. I suppose that the A-4E devs do not want to register as a company and negotiate a standard 3rd party contract. 1 “Mosquitoes fly, but flies don’t Mosquito” :pilotfly: - Geoffrey de Havilland. ... well, he could have said it!
Gierasimov Posted March 3, 2020 Posted March 3, 2020 I have seen a lot buzz about A4 mod lately, mostly on reddit and YT. I am sure that the community interested in this mod is very supportive of it, I am not that much but that is a different story. I don't agree with the idea of making DCS mods officially available (approved by ED). For the software as complicated as DCS, where even ED is struggling at times, opening this to mods officially would be like opening the flood gates. Therefore the case should not be put with ED but with the modders - if they are that good, they can apply to become a 3rd party and actually make it officially. Intel Ultra 9 285K :: ROG STRIX Z890-A GAMING WIFI :: Kingston Fury 64GB :: MSI RTX 4080 Gaming X Trio :: VKB Gunfighter MK.III MCG Ultimate :: VPC MongoosT-50 CM3 :: non-VR :: single player :: open beta
KWard Posted March 3, 2020 Posted March 3, 2020 I would and will buy modules for any and every US carrier aircraft from the 60s onward, but there's an extra reason for me to wish for the A-4 in particular. You see, there are two aircraft I'd like to have that we will never ever get for DCS: the T-6 Texan and T-2 Buckeye. Because those are the aircraft that generations of Student Naval Aviators learned to fly in, and I believe in taking the time to do things right. For the Texan, DCS offers a decent substitute in the TF-51, but there's nothing right now that could sub for the Buckeye--an easy-to-fly easy-to-learn-on carrier-capable jet trainer. Closest we have now is the F-5, but it can't do carriers. The A-4 would be a great sub for the Buckeye. From the aviators who actually flew it I've heard nothing but praise for its flying characteristics, and IIRC it actually was used as a trainer on occasion.
Evoman Posted March 4, 2020 Posted March 4, 2020 (edited) I would and will buy modules for any and every US carrier aircraft from the 60s onward, but there's an extra reason for me to wish for the A-4 in particular. You see, there are two aircraft I'd like to have that we will never ever get for DCS: the T-6 Texan and T-2 Buckeye. Because those are the aircraft that generations of Student Naval Aviators learned to fly in, and I believe in taking the time to do things right. For the Texan, DCS offers a decent substitute in the TF-51, but there's nothing right now that could sub for the Buckeye--an easy-to-fly easy-to-learn-on carrier-capable jet trainer. Closest we have now is the F-5, but it can't do carriers. The A-4 would be a great sub for the Buckeye. From the aviators who actually flew it I've heard nothing but praise for its flying characteristics, and IIRC it actually was used as a trainer on occasion. I totally agree that DCS is lacking a good naval trainer. As a matter a fact it has been brought up several times before that DCS needs to add a free trainer of some sort to be included with the free DCS download. And what better choice than something that is carrier capable like the T-2 Buckeye or A-4. I think that having a carrier capable aircraft included with DCS would really attract more interest in DCS as a whole and other carrier capable modules for sale. What ever work that would be need to make it happen would not only pay for its self but many times over by the increased sales it would generate. Edited March 6, 2020 by Evoman
Mars Exulte Posted March 4, 2020 Posted March 4, 2020 The A-4E community mod is excellent. I will pay (buy it) if it was officially included in DCS. Its mod status prevent certain things from working (example: the radios) and servers don’t include it because it becomes a requirement of all players who enter to have it installed and manually updated, even if they do not intend to fly it. Pretty please with sugar on top, DCS make this mod into an official module. Most of the work has already been done. I am sure that there is some business model that can allow high quality mods to be included and sold in the store so expenses are covered and even turn a profit for DCS/the developers. I suppose that the A-4E devs do not want to register as a company and negotiate a standard 3rd party contract. Not going to happen. Period. And it is not only up to ED. The dev's don't want to, and they don't have a license with either ED or McDonnel Douglas. And it's very doubtful ''most the work is done''. Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти. 5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2
statrekmike Posted March 4, 2020 Posted March 4, 2020 If one were to look back in both Reddit's various A-4 mod related threads and even some of the threads on this forum, they would probably see more than a few posts by the mod's developers saying that it was never intended to be a module and would require extensive amounts of work to even bring it to the level of a officially released module. They are not willing to do that work and without the SDK, it is unlikely that anyone would be able to do that work anyway even if they wanted to. This is something that gets brought up quite a bit and to be honest, the answer isn't really going to change. If a third party were to make a A-4 from scratch with the intention of making it a module, that would be a different story but until that time comes, the mod (as it is) will have to do for those that are not willing to wait for such a official project to manifest.
Dehuman Posted March 4, 2020 Posted March 4, 2020 If one were to look back in both Reddit's various A-4 mod related threads and even some of the threads on this forum, they would probably see more than a few posts by the mod's developers saying that it was never intended to be a module and would require extensive amounts of work to even bring it to the level of a officially released module. They are not willing to do that work and without the SDK, it is unlikely that anyone would be able to do that work anyway even if they wanted to. This is something that gets brought up quite a bit and to be honest, the answer isn't really going to change. If a third party were to make a A-4 from scratch with the intention of making it a module, that would be a different story but until that time comes, the mod (as it is) will have to do for those that are not willing to wait for such a official project to manifest. Indeed. I think a lot of people do understand this but want to see the developers of the mod receive a financial reward for their work. In this case I think the best to hope for is ED or a third party buys the work done thus far and maybe offer a contract to the devs to get it to where it needs to be.
Bozon Posted March 4, 2020 Posted March 4, 2020 Not going to happen. Period. And it is not only up to ED. The dev's don't want to, and they don't have a license with either ED or McDonnel Douglas. And it's very doubtful ''most the work is done''. That is pretty obvious. Yet! This is the wish forum and you don’t waste a wish on something that is likely to happen anyway.:smilewink: “Mosquitoes fly, but flies don’t Mosquito” :pilotfly: - Geoffrey de Havilland. ... well, he could have said it!
Northstar98 Posted March 4, 2020 Posted March 4, 2020 (edited) Just a side note, the A-4E isn't technically a must for the Falklands map, that instead falls to the A-4B and A-4C for the Falklands War period AFAIK. I would like to see an official A-4 module though. For me, preferably an A-4C As for the community Skyhawk, I'm sure it will get fixed. Edited March 4, 2020 by Northstar98 Modules I own: F-14A/B, F-4E, Mi-24P, AJS 37, AV-8B N/A, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk. Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas. System: GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4070S FE, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV. Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.
Silver_Dragon Posted March 4, 2020 Posted March 4, 2020 Indeed. I think a lot of people do understand this but want to see the developers of the mod receive a financial reward for their work. In this case I think the best to hope for is ED or a third party buys the work done thus far and maybe offer a contract to the devs to get it to where it needs to be. Wait a second..... you need make the propper legal stament and get the aproval from the owners of A-4 license / trademark (Boeing). And after, follow the road with ED to get a 3rd party status. You can´t get any reward by a MOD, only aproval TFC software, remember the EULA For Work/Gaming: 28" Philips 246E Monitor - Ryzen 7 1800X - 32 GB DDR4 - nVidia RTX1080 - SSD 860 EVO 1 TB / 860 QVO 1 TB / 860 QVO 2 TB - Win10 Pro - TM HOTAS Warthog / TPR / MDF
Harker Posted March 4, 2020 Posted March 4, 2020 Indeed. I think a lot of people do understand this but want to see the developers of the mod receive a financial reward for their work. In this case I think the best to hope for is ED or a third party buys the work done thus far and maybe offer a contract to the devs to get it to where it needs to be. People are free to donate, though. Have the A-4 devs set up a Paypal or something like that? If not, users can still set up one themselves and donate, if they're so inclined. I don't know and I personally don't use the mod, but if a financial reward is the issue here, it can easily be solved by donations, without having to involve ED at all. The vCVW-17 is looking for Hornet and Tomcat pilots and RIOs. Join the vCVW-17 Discord. F/A-18C, F-15E, AV-8B, F-16C, JF-17, A-10C/CII, M-2000C, F-14, AH-64D, BS2, UH-1H, P-51D, Sptifire, FC3 - i9-13900K, 64GB @6400MHz RAM, 4090 Strix OC, Samsung 990 Pro
SGT Coyle Posted March 4, 2020 Posted March 4, 2020 I'd buy a Naval trainer to go with my Super Carrier, And an A-4 for that matter. Night Ops in the Harrier IYAOYAS
Harlikwin Posted March 4, 2020 Posted March 4, 2020 Not going to happen. Period. And it is not only up to ED. The dev's don't want to, and they don't have a license with either ED or McDonnel Douglas. And it's very doubtful ''most the work is done''. Yup Zhukov is right. The mod is great for what it is, but I get ED's logic for doing some mods (like A/C) the way they do. Plus while its a great mod, I wouldn't say its up-to-par for a full-fi module. And yes I'd love to see a full-fi A4 (I like the M).... New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really).
Evoman Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) It is not all about money. It really comes down to two main things to make it possible for a 3rd party to develop a module. 1. A License from the manufacturer that holds the rights. 2. A knowledgeable developing group/company that can meet the high quality control procedures. Here is quote form the announcement of the OH-58D Kiowa to put things in a better perspective. " During the past 2 years, we have been talking to a lot of individuals including people from Bell Textron, Eagle Dynamics and the US Army Cavalry community. Bell Textron granted us a product-specific license for the OH-58D Kiowa Warrior for commercial use, which means we were given permission to recreate the helicopter for game or entertainment purposes. Without this license, a module for the DCS World environment would not be possible. With the license also comes a responsibility. Anything related to the product will be subject to demanding quality control procedures. We recognize this as an opportunity and a benefit for the community, the simulation of the OH-58D Kiowa Warrior in DCS World and ourselves as a developing company. The license also grants us access to certain information otherwise not available to the public. Without it, it would simply be impossible to create a lifelike representation of the aircraft. With the manufacturer’s license secured, we got in contact with Eagle Dynamics to discuss with them the plans we had for our next module. This started a long period in which possible contracts were negotiated. Negotiations like these are complex, especially when it involves a third party, in this case, Bell Textron. In the end, all parties have to agree to the terms and conditions." https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/2019-11-29_Kiowa_Announced/ Edited March 5, 2020 by Evoman
ST0RM Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 the A-4E isn't technically a must for the Falklands map Yeah, I was wondering how that is going to be implemented. Seems to be a huge missing piece for this map. I guess it'll be just a Harrier show.
Harlikwin Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 Yeah, I was wondering how that is going to be implemented. Seems to be a huge missing piece for this map. I guess it'll be just a Harrier show. Since when has actual realism from a scenario point of view ever stopped anything from the ED/3rd party POV... If you build it, they will come, or the community will accept "hacks"... I think it will be great to have a falklands map, but currently there are 0 official aircraft in DCS for the falklands war. Hopefully they will come. New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really).
Harlikwin Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 Licencing point is questionable imo. Does ED have license for every device and weapon system in the game? I don't think so. Does ED have license for every single subsystem of aircraft they develop? I don't think so. An aircraft model usually have subsystems of different companies such as Thales, Honeywell... does a DCS product requires license from every single company which device is simulated? Why do we have modules with shady names such as "M2000C" (Which is suspiciously similar to a certain product developed by Dassault), or "NS 430 Navigation System" (Which is suspiciously similar to a certain product developed by Garmin). Why, for example, F-18C does not have "Boeing officially licensed product" sticker? It gets even more weird if you think about the legalities of migs and sukhois. They were built for a government that no longer exists. New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1) Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really).
Mars Exulte Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 It gets even more weird if you think about the legalities of migs and sukhois. They were built for a government that no longer exists. Au contraire! One of the results of the dissolution of the USSR was that the Russian Federation assumed all legal licenses and liabilities, any treaties, debts, etc, were carried over. While the USSR dissolved itself, the Russian Federation is legally the direct successor of all privileges and responsibilities. MiG and Sukhoi, along with everything else, all automatically transferred over. Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти. 5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2
AeriaGloria Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 Damn I learned something! Black Shark Den Squadron Member: We are open to new recruits, click here to check us out or apply to join! https://blacksharkden.com
Northstar98 Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 (edited) Since when has actual realism from a scenario point of view ever stopped anything from the ED/3rd party POV... If you build it, they will come, or the community will accept "hacks"... I think it will be great to have a falklands map, but currently there are 0 official aircraft in DCS for the falklands war. Hopefully they will come. Oh no, it's not a show stopper for anything. All I hope is that in the future they'll be some official full-fidelity modules for the Falklands war period (or hell, I'd even take decent AI units as an interim) for the Falklands. What I consider must haves are. BAe Sea Harrier FRS.1 Hawker Siddeley Harrier Gr.3 Douglas A-4B (A-4P & A-4Q) / A-4C Dassault Mirage IIIC/E Dassault Super Étendard IAI Dagger A Of course there are more plus a few rotary winged stuff. The FRS.1 and a Mirage III(?) are being done by RAZBAM. Hopefully they'll turn out decent. I'm kinda against using the AV-8B N/A and Mirage 2000C for the 1982 Falklands war. But hey it makes a good 'what-if' scenario for a more modern take on it, and they're pretty good as an interim. Edited March 5, 2020 by Northstar98 Modules I own: F-14A/B, F-4E, Mi-24P, AJS 37, AV-8B N/A, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk. Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas. System: GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4070S FE, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV. Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.
nick_thain Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 Gudday all, Forgive me if I'm missing something obvious here, but after reading through this forum my heart sank when I saw that the community A-4 will no longer work in DCS, so I jumped into the latest DCS World Open Beta and tried to take the A-4 for a spin and it worked just fine...
statrekmike Posted March 5, 2020 Posted March 5, 2020 Indeed. I think a lot of people do understand this but want to see the developers of the mod receive a financial reward for their work. In this case I think the best to hope for is ED or a third party buys the work done thus far and maybe offer a contract to the devs to get it to where it needs to be. The major issue is that the A-4 modders are kinda done with it. They have openly stated that it is what it is (barring major bug fixes I suppose) and if there is to be a A-4 module officially, it won't come from them and won't be built on the groundwork they started. The A-4 mod was built to just be a mod with all the limits that entails. If ED were to try to make it into a proper module, they would pretty much have to start from scratch. To be blunt, there really isn't going to be a scenario where the A-4 mod (as it is now) is worth buying as a module and nor is there going to be a scenario where ED or another third party is able to turn that mod into a proper module without starting from the very beginning. The sad part is that the A-4 mod's popularity has already influenced one developer (RAZBAM) to not want to tackle a proper module version. Hopefully another third party sees the obvious A-4 sized gap that still remains in DCS World and makes a proper one.
Baco Posted March 6, 2020 Posted March 6, 2020 I would pay the price of three full modules for an A-4 Skyhawk any model. By the way the A-4AR Fighting Hawk is Lockhead Martins TM, i dont know if McD's license would be needed if LHead would authorize....
Recommended Posts