Who auto starts their aircraft

[Tippis]

I’m being sarcastic... but if nobody is going to use all these complex commands and features why should ED put effort towards it?

Because everyone ends up using the complexity. There's no way around that. Auto start exist because of and alongside the complexity, not in any kind of opposition to it.

 

I think the cheats should be removed from the full fidelity aircraft once MAC launches

That would drastically reduce the quality and appeal of the game and its content so that would be a pretty bad idea.

 

It’s disappointing to buy a DLC campaign for this only to find out it features arcade game hot starts.

Good thing none of them do.

[S. Low]

If too many people use these cheats, why should ED spend the resources to make such high fidelity systems?

 

Because it's an awesome feature to be included in something that is worth $80. Because they are modeling all of the systems, so making the switches actually start the aircraft is just part of the process of making all the systems work. Because fidelity is a selling point even if we don't do it every single time.

 

Take off and Landing accuracy (systems, physics, flight modeling) are very important to the fidelity of the sim, but that doesn't mean I'm doing them every single time. A lot of time in DCS I simply jump into an instant action and shoot shit down. Why? Because the mission editor is annoying as hell and I don't always want a huge headache to just experience an aspect of flying, like the combat.

 

DCS is in a weird spot for me. I enjoy it the most out of my three favorite sims: DCS, MSFS, IL-2. But I enjoy the flight models and the combat the most. I enjoy IL-2 for the fact that it has a campaign that I can feel involved in, that I can load up my pilot profile and launch a scripted mission that follows the history of a particular battle. And then MSFS has a really easy way to just jump in your aircraft, at the airport of your heart's desire, take off and go look at stuff. With DCS I'd have to go into the mission editor and add all sorts of stuff just to take off and do anything.

 

I want the high fidelity because aviation is awesome and I don't get to experience aviation in real life so I want to see all of the real details in the sim. But that doesn't mean I have to do the entire process of plan, cold start, take off, navigate, AAR, mission, navigate, AAR, land, debrief, etc every single time I turn the sim on.

[...]

I don't really use autostart because for most of the modules I can go from cold to hot faster than autostart can.

 

 

+1

[ebabil]

I always use auto start except uh1

[Baco]

Yes indeed MAnual start is faster and sets the plane better than Auto, still liek Many I usea UAto when getting a drink, checking targets on f 10, or coordinating with squad mates on briefed prodedures...

 

Why Shoud ED take resources to create thes "cheats".. well

1 it is not cheating..

2 it is usefull as many people has stated

3, its a game .. a very complex game, but a game after all.. it does NOT matter in Real life how good you are at it... ;)

[draconus]

I’m being sarcastic... but if nobody is going to use all these complex commands and features why should ED put effort towards it?

 

I think the cheats should be removed from the full fidelity aircraft once MAC launches.

 

It’s disappointing to buy a DLC campaign for this only to find out it features arcade game hot starts.

Whoah! Airstart/hotstart is just a decision where and when the simulation begins - nothing unrealistic about that. Autostart is indeed a cheat, and from what we can read, MAC will be bestseller and DCS could finally get free of simplifications.

[Gruman]

Never use Auto-Start.

But the existence of Auto-Start or simmers who prefer auto start dont bother me at all. Why would it? It doesnt affect my own experience. From outside it looks like every other start.

Each to their own.

 

What I dont like are the game mode in flight / or FC3 Aircrafts. But this is another topic alltogether. ;)

[AnarchyZG]

Almost always autostart:

- my time is very limited and I'd rather fly/fight then perform mouse clicks on buttons in sequence

- flying multiple aircraft makes it easy to forget a step or two for a particular aircraft

- once you've done full manual start a few times...it is boring, so Win+Home for me while I get myself a drink from the fridge

[DimSim]

I'm a casual player. I auto start. I check the box 'INS Aligned'. I'm proud of it!

 

It appears I'm also not alone...

"The average time a player spends in DCS in one session is 25 minutes" Simon, Global Business Development Director, Eagle Dynamics.

Source:

 

I'm also delighted some people enjoy cold & dark starts, and 2hr flights with multiple air-to-air refuelings. It's great this sim has options to support casual players and realism enthusiasts.

[SharpeXB]

Because it's an awesome feature to be included in something that is worth $80.

I want full fidelity too. But the influx of arcade players who won’t use these features will threaten to turn DCS into an iPad flying game (ok maybe not)

 

Autostart is indeed a cheat, and from what we can read, MAC will be bestseller and DCS could finally get free of simplifications.

My question was rhetorical. Yes I agree though, once MAC is available there will be no need for cheats in DCS. If you want full fidelity, you got it.

Edited September 8, 2020 by SharpeXB

[Tippis]

I want full fidelity too. But the influx of arcade players

Why on earth would there be an influx of arcade players to a game that has zero arcade features? That does not in any way even remotely offer anything that could conceivably, even on a very foggy day from a very long distance away, be confused with arcadelike gameplay?

 

Yes I agree though, once MAC is available there will be no need for cheats in DCS.

Yes there will be. You see, without them, you'd not have anything to do in DCS because they're an absolutely critical component in the thing that gives DCS value: the missions. Without missions, the game would instantly evaporate.

 

This is blatantly obvious and it's just ridiculous to think that the game would survive without them. Almost as ridiculous is the notion that they in any way take away from the game. Their existence does not affect you in any way (other that the aforementioned availability of missions) so there are exactly none sane and intelligent arguments in favour of their removal. Zero. Nil. This should be compared to the myriad of reasons why they must exist.

[BuzzU]

Why on earth would there be an influx of arcade players to a game that has zero arcade features?

 

You don't think game mode and auto-start are arcade features? A simulation is supposed to simulate real life. At least as much as can be done on a computer. What is game mode and auto-start simulating in real life?

 

DCS is dumbed down in a lot of areas but those two are the worst. I'm not sure DCS deserves the title of Digital Combat Simulator. I consider BMS closer to a simulator but it has arcade starts too if you want to use them. Although if you do a manual start wrong you'll get failures. DCS has yet to add that.

 

Start anyway you want. Nobody really cares but don't kid yourself that DCS doesn't have some arcade features.

[=475FG= Dawger]

You don't think game mode and auto-start are arcade features? A simulation is supposed to simulate real life. At least as much as can be done on a computer. What is game mode and auto-start simulating in real life?

 

DCS is dumbed down in a lot of areas but those two are the worst. I'm not sure DCS deserves the title of Digital Combat Simulator. I consider BMS closer to a simulator but it has arcade starts too if you want to use them. Although if you do a manual start wrong you'll get failures. DCS has yet to add that.

 

Start anyway you want. Nobody really cares but don't kid yourself that DCS doesn't have some arcade features.

 

Actually, autostart is a nearly perfect simulation of a real world pilot going through the mindless motions of the start checks for the thousandth time. It is an exercise that requires very little brain power.

 

Its the rookies who need a sterile environment and total concentration in order to manage to light the fire while carefully plodding through the written checklist one line item at a time.

[SharpeXB]

Start anyway you want. Nobody really cares but don't kid yourself that DCS doesn't have some arcade features.

It doesn’t bother me that people want simplifications until I buy a DLC campaign that features hot starts. WTF :cry:

 

Then I realize although many players pretend to want realism, they’ll take any simplification they can get... and ask for stuff such as Easy Automatic AAR or auto-level autopilot for WWII fighters

 

That’s why DCS needs MAC, for players who are currently forcing themselves into full fidelity but in reality aren’t ready for it or can’t handle it.

Edited September 8, 2020 by SharpeXB

[BuzzU]

Actually, autostart is a nearly perfect simulation of a real world pilot going through the mindless motions of the start checks for the thousandth time. It is an exercise that requires very little brain power.

 

Its the rookies who need a sterile environment and total concentration in order to manage to light the fire while carefully plodding through the written checklist one line item at a time.

 

Auto-start kills immersion for some. Manual starts can be boring for some. So are long flights and easy kills. The whole experience can be boring for some. I can handle the boring parts to get to the exciting parts. If I did nothing but the exciting parts they would in time get boring too.

 

It's a matter of having the right mind set and what you want from the sim.

[BuzzU]

It doesn’t bother me that people want simplifications until I buy a DLC campaign that features hot starts. WTF :cry:

 

Then I realize although many players pretend to want realism, they’ll take any simplification they can get... and ask for stuff such as Easy Automatic AAR or auto-level autopilot for WWII fighters

 

That’s why DCS needs MAC, for players who are currently forcing themselves into full fidelity but in reality aren’t ready for it or can’t handle it.

 

I'm with you. I really don't care what others do. I only need to make myself happy. I appreciate that we have a choice in DCS. I like to do everything as real as possible in a sim. ED needs to make it easier for those who want it. ED's job is to get as amny buying DCS as possible. I understand that. However, if a sim came out that offered no easy modes. I'd be all over it. It wouldn't be too different for me, except I'd know others flying it would be like minded to me.

[Tippis]

You don't think game mode and auto-start are arcade features?

No.

 

Granted, in one of those instance (game mode), it's kind of by accident since it actually makes the game harder, but even though that's most likely not the intent, it still doesn't make it an arcade game — it just takes a highly complex workload and reduces it to a merely complex workload. You still have to deal with things that other simulators don't even bother simulating and you will definitely not be double-tap-left rolling your way out of being shot from behind at mach 3.0 or firing off macross missile barrages or bounce off mountains with just a bit of shield damage or firing off your super attack to clear the screen of enemies any of the things you'd do in an arcade game. Even turning invincibility and unlimited weapons on doesn't really let you do that since the full complex simulation is still running and will still have to fire weapons normally, and when you slam into a mountain you've still come to a screeching halt — there might not be a fiery explosive end, but your flight is over nevertheless.

 

What is game mode and auto-start simulating in real life?

Someone else going in beforehand and screwing up the FCS settings and starting the plane for you. So, say, a slightly malicious flight instructor. :D

 

There's also the full-meta answer: they simulate flying in a flight simulator.

 

DCS is dumbed down in a lot of areas but those two are the worst.

Auto-start does not in any way dumb down the game. Everything is just as complicated as it always is — you just don't go through (some parts of) the a small portion of the overall flight process on your own. In many (or even most) cases, it still requires you to know how to get critical systems going because the script doesn't actually do everything.

 

Game mode might almost qualify but it is still just a screwed-up flight model — nothing more. You still have to understand the proper employment of your aircraft, and all it does is ostensibly take away some of the ways to depart from controlled flight… except it tends to instead introduce new ways of doing so, so it's pretty much a wash. :P

 

Although if you do a manual start wrong you'll get failures. DCS has yet to add that.

DCS already has that. Funnily enough, a common issue with autostart is that it induces those kinds of failures.

 

on't kid yourself that DCS doesn't have some arcade features.

What features would those be and how do they qualify as “arcade”? What do you even mean by “arcade”? What is your reference game?

 

I'm with you. I really don't care what others do. I only need to make myself happy. I appreciate that we have a choice in DCS. I like to do everything as real as possible in a sim. ED needs to make it easier for those who want it. ED's job is to get as amny buying DCS as possible. I understand that. However, if a sim came out that offered no easy modes. I'd be all over it. It wouldn't be too different for me, except I'd know others flying it would be like minded to me.

Quite. This is really the important thing to remember: this is already a niche game with a narrow audience. But within that narrow niche, it still offers a wide array of preferences to set up difficulty, complexity, and required commitment to your liking. This is only ever a good thing, and removing that ability will only ever lead to making the game even more niche; the audience even more narrow. At that point, the thing implodes because there is never One Single True Way™ of playing the game that they can decide on that will let the company survive and the game to see further development. Even the single player might not want to always play it the same exact way, but might want to vary how much time and effort they put into a session from one day to the next.

 

And that's before we even go into the whole issue of content creation and learning or teaching the sim — both of which would become pretty darn horrible pretty darn quickly without shortcuts to skip over certain parts of the full flight experience. Coincidentally, the exact same ability exists in real simulators too, and for very good reason.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Tippis

[=475FG= Dawger]

Auto-start kills immersion for some. Manual starts can be boring for some. So are long flights and easy kills. The whole experience can be boring for some. I can handle the boring parts to get to the exciting parts. If I did nothing but the exciting parts they would in time get boring too.

 

It's a matter of having the right mind set and what you want from the sim.

 

You asked what auto start simulated and I answered you. It isn't me railing against auto start macros.

 

Game mode isn't an issue that should concern anyone because the mission builder can prevent its use. You will never be flying with anyone using game mode unless YOU choose to do so.

 

Also, why do you care if someone else is using a programmed set of instructions to start their aircraft versus reading a programmed set of instructions and executing them?

 

The ENTIRE purpose of the pre-start and start checklist in a REAL airplane is to make sure the aircraft is in an airworthy condition prior to flight.

 

Guess what? In MP DCS, random failures cannot be used. The aircraft is guaranteed airworthy. There is no mystery. Zero reason whatsoever to pay attention to the start process.

 

It is a pointless exercise.

 

If you enjoy such things, more power to you.

 

I would never suggest denying you that pleasure. Yet, you and others of your ilk, seem intent on inflicting your version of "simulation" on everyone else.

[=4c=Nikola]

OMG, just look at this instructor station of professional full motion simulator with all that cheats. They can instantly at any moment change aircraft state, position, wx, set failures... arcade noobs, someone should tell them they are cheating. Oh wait they are professional pilots...

 

[Cab]

It doesn’t bother me that people want simplifications until I buy a DLC campaign that features hot starts. WTF :cry:

 

Just consider it "hot-seating". Ultra-realistic :thumbup:

 

https://defence-blog.com/news/f-22-raptor-pilots-conduct-hot-seat-training.html

[BuzzU]

No.

 

Granted, in one of those instance (game mode), it's kind of by accident since it actually makes the game harder, but even though that's most likely not the intent, it still doesn't make it an arcade game — it just takes a highly complex workload and reduces it to a merely complex workload. You still have to deal with things that other simulators don't even bother simulating and you will definitely not be double-tap-left rolling your way out of being shot from behind at mach 3.0 or firing off macross missile barrages or bounce off mountains with just a bit of shield damage or firing off your super attack to clear the screen of enemies any of the things you'd do in an arcade game. Even turning invincibility and unlimited weapons on doesn't really let you do that since the full complex simulation is still running and will still have to fire weapons normally, and when you slam into a mountain you've still come to a screeching halt — there might not be a fiery explosive end, but your flight is over nevertheless.

 

 

Someone else going in beforehand and screwing up the FCS settings and starting the plane for you. So, say, a slightly malicious flight instructor. :D

 

 

Auto-start does not in any way dumb down the game. Everything is just as complicated as it always is — you just don't go through (some parts of) the a small portion of the overall flight process on your own. In many (or even most) cases, it still requires you to know how to get critical systems going because the script doesn't actually do everything.

 

Game mode might almost qualify but it is still just a screwed-up flight model — nothing more. You still have to understand the proper employment of your aircraft, and all it does is ostensibly take away some of the ways to depart from controlled flight… except it tends to instead introduce new ways of doing so, so it's pretty much a wash. :P

 

 

DCS already has that. Funnily enough, a common issue with autostart is that it induces those kinds of failures.

 

 

What features would those be and how do they qualify as “arcade”? What do you even mean by “arcade”? What is your reference game?

 

You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't same DCS is an arcade game. I never came close to saying that. I said it has arcade features. Big difference. If you don't think game mode and auto start are arcade features then we disagree.

 

Also, when I said DCs is dumbed down I wasn't talking about auto start and game mode. I consider those arcade features. Not dumbed down. Do you want an example of dumbed down? How about ATC? Compare it to BMS.

[BuzzU]

OMG, just look at this instructor station of professional full motion simulator with all that cheats. They can instantly at any moment change aircraft state, position, wx, set failures... arcade noobs, someone should tell them they are cheating. Oh wait they are professional pilots...

 

 

DCS is simulating a simulator.

[SharpeXB]

I can handle the boring parts to get to the exciting parts.

War is boredom punctuated by terror.

[=4c=Nikola]

DCS is simulating a simulator.

 

What?

[BuzzU]

Ok, I had my say. You all have fun with DCS anyway you want to fly it.

 

I'm done. Don't quote me I won't answer. I want to go fly. (after I start it :))