Aerial Refueling

[HILOK]

also, in case it hasn't been mentioned already, i'd highly recommend training AAR just 10min per day over a week, rather than only week-ends for hours and hours.

[dburne]

8 hours ago, pete_auau said:

strange  that  you  cant  see  the  basket  at  right of  centre  since iam using  vr   and  have  no  issues  seeing  the  basket  all the  way  in (like  to see  a  screen  shot   just before  you hook  up  to the  basket)

 

 

If I am looking straight ahead like at the pod I will not see the basket in periphery to the right.  I have no vision in the right half of my field of view.

Only vision I have any more is left half of fov. It is like draw a vertical line down center of my eyes and wipe out one half of the eyesight. Nothing but a dark void there. Thanks to a stroke I suffered during a surgery procedure I permanently lost half of my eyesight.

[Sacarino111]

Hi.

Don t forget to wiggle your toes, it is a magic trick to avoid over tension and helps you use the right amount of force. Sound ridiculouse, but works for me!

Saludos.

Saca111

[Nyxx]

55 minutes ago, dburne said:

 

If I am looking straight ahead like at the pod I will not see the basket in periphery to the right.  I have no vision in the right half of my field of view.

Only vision I have any more is left half of fov. It is like draw a vertical line down center of my eyes and wipe out one half of the eyesight. Nothing but a dark void there. Thanks to a stroke I suffered during a surgery procedure I permanently lost half of my eyesight.

Sorry to hear about your sight.

I dont understand why you think using AP ATTH makes you less a pilot. The F-18C has AP and ATC for good reason and them tools are there to help you.

I was asked to do a guild on AVSIM for a a couple of guys. Here is a link if you want to look. Take care. 

Doing it like this is like night and Day from none AP the stress is a faction of not using it. More inportantly it makes it easy and a joy to do.

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/594928-4-from-dcs-today-f-18c/?do=findComment&comment=4466279

Edited February 5, 2021 by Nyxx

[dburne]

49 minutes ago, Nyxx said:

Sorry to hear about your sight.

I dont understand why you think using AP ATTH makes you less a pilot. The F-18C has AP and ATC for good reason and them tools are there to help you.

I was asked to do a guild on AVSIM for a a couple of guys. Here is a link if you want to look. Take care. 

Doing it like this is like night and Day from none AP the stress is a faction of not using it. More inportantly it makes it easy and a joy to do.

https://www.avsim.com/forums/topic/594928-4-from-dcs-today-f-18c/?do=findComment&comment=4466279

 

 

Will check it out much thanks!

[dburne]

Well I am getting better at getting it in the basket, now just can't keep it in for longer than a few seconds.

Still working at it...

[dburne]

Ok so I switched to using the AP method, and have gotten way further than I have been using it and just throttle and my trim buttons.

Have not made it through getting a full tank yet but I am close. I think by end of the day I will have it hopefully.

[dburne]

Woohoo, finally I did it!

On to Jdamm and Jsow's now. Progress!

[Shiroka]

Congrats on getting it nailed. Just to add my 2 cents, the biggest difference for me was when I moved my joystick from a side stick to a center stick setup. Could be a placebo but I felt I had loads more control and hit first try after that. Same with traps on the carrier.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Shiroka

[dburne]

5 hours ago, Shiroka said:

Congrats on getting it nailed. Just to add my 2 cents, the biggest difference for me was when I moved my joystick from a side stick to a center stick setup. Could be a placebo but I felt I had loads more control and hit first try after that. Same with traps on the carrier.

 

 

Yeah I have a center mounted stick with 200mm extension.

What really helped me was using the AP method to dampen the inputs some, and just used trim to adjust position on approach whilst working the throttle. Kept my plane stable with no serious oscillations. 

[ruddy122]

They did this over Afghanistan the Hornet

Get stabilized in Precontact behind the tanker 30 deg down 100 ft behind tanker

Fly to the basket one to two knot closure

Once in basket hold on for dear life and don’t go too low or you’ll snap of the probe or basket


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[SharpeXB]

On 2/4/2021 at 5:13 PM, Dangerzone said:

 

It's like driving a car. If we focus on the road 20m in front of us to stay centre, we'll be left and right - but if we focus on the road a mile or more in front our movements will be more subtle, and a smoother more controlled ride.

Exactly! One day I realized that if I can “fly formation” in traffic in my car then I should also be able to do it in AAR. Look how your foot subconsciously is on and off the gas and your hands make constant small correction without you having to think about it. Of course you have many more hours in the car but that’s the whole point. Do this enough in DCS and it all becomes subconscious like driving a car or riding a bicycle. It just takes time. 

[Caldero]

Hi

Last Xmas I moved from a 2D monitor to a 3D VR HMD and -after I pick up my jaws from the floor- all those problems (air refuelling, keeping close formation, flying overhead traffic pattern... etc) were solved

Much easier in VR if you can afford it

Regards!

 

[FortunateSon]

Great tips guys. The "don't look at the basket" thing is what did the trick. After what must have been 30 very frustrating tries over the last few months, this immediately did the trick.

That feeling when you hear "transfer complete" for the first time. :)

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[rob10]

7 hours ago, FortunateSon said:

Great tips guys. The "don't look at the basket" thing is what did the trick. After what must have been 30 very frustrating tries over the last few months, this immediately did the trick.

That feeling when you hear "transfer complete" for the first time.

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Yep .   Just wait until the 1st time you catch the basket 1st try at night and hold on through a turn to full from near empty without disconnecting.  I'm actually almost disappointed if I fly a mission and I don't have to AAR these days.

[ruddy122]

That’s what a British VC-10 pilot said and a lot of RAF guys said

If you focus on the basket you will miss completely

Focus on staying in position with the tanker if you are in the right position you should be in position for the basket


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[Hog_driver]

"Transfer complete!" !!!

Just completed my first AAR in my trusty A-10C!

Now I'm just crying and dropping flares...

[Magnate]

On 2/4/2021 at 1:16 PM, dburne said:

 

Yeah I saw that tip in one of the refueling Youtube clips. Will be giving it a try when I resume.

If you're using VR then my advice is DO focus on the basket, since the hugely improved depth perception makes this possible. By contrast, when you're flying on a flat screen you're never entirely sure where the basket actually is in relation to your probe, so concentrating more on  your general alignment with the tanker does make more sense.

 

Another tip for a learner is to create a mission using the KC130 - easiest airframe to refuel from - and start with a relatively slow airspeed so that your aircraft's response to any stick inputs is relatively sedate.

[SharpeXB]

On 2/4/2021 at 5:13 PM, Dangerzone said:

The problem with AAR is that you can't be reactive - you must be proactive and get ahead of what your movements will be.

 

This exactly. If you just react to what you see on the screen it’s too late. Practicing until your reactions predict what will happen is the key. It’s how we learn to ride a bicycle etc. 

A good piece of advice from one of these WWII training films was “as soon as you start (the motion) start stopping it” Counter every input almost immediately with an opposite input, don’t wait to see the result on the screen and then react. 

[ruddy122]

In real usaf refueling you aim for a formation position the lights are there to figure out where you are in the formation position

In the KC10 10 minutes on the boom was minimum for check rides and for IP checks you have to do a limit demo


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[Swift.]

10 hours ago, ruddy122 said:

In real usaf refueling you aim for a formation position the lights are there to figure out where you are in the formation position

In the KC10 10 minutes on the boom was minimum for check rides and for IP checks you have to do a limit demo


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Of course this being a hornet subforum, the only lights we have are the ones that tell you if you are too close or far, but they don't work in DCS.

 

Unfortunately there are no alignment aides for probe pilots.

[Steel Jaw]

On 2/4/2021 at 4:22 AM, flaashheart said:

I found that the absolute key thing with F18 AAR is to forget the basket altogether, just block it out from your active vision.

I consistently see this advised, but having tried to master this so very many times, I dont see how I can plug when in proximity without watching the dang basket.

[Digitalvole]

11 hours ago, Steel Jaw said:

I consistently see this advised, but having tried to master this so very many times, I dont see how I can plug when in proximity without watching the dang basket.

I need much practice at AAR, mainly staying plugged in. But getting in the basket I find much easier now.

I wouldn’t totally ignore the basket, just focus on the pod and use peripheral vision for the basket. If you are watching TV you can still keep track of where your kids are in the room (and more importantly what they are doing) using the same method.

Its like 90% of your brain/eyeballs power (whatever that means) is focused on the pod and the other 10% on the basket. If those numbers start going the other way PIO quickly follows.

[Baco]

its an exercise in frustration. I dot know why on earth we cant have easy AAR let the AI take over, i dont have the time nor the inclination to learn, so i cant participate in group missions, its really frustrating...its a big enough issue to say <profanity> it I had it with DCS...

 

[War_Pig]

3 hours ago, Baco said:

its an exercise in frustration. I dot know why on earth we cant have easy AAR let the AI take over, i dont have the time nor the inclination to learn, so i cant participate in group missions, its really frustrating...its a big enough issue to say <profanity> it I had it with DCS...

 

It’s very doable, and once you learn it’s easy and incredibly fun.  Learn to fly with just your fingertips, and make tiny corrections.  Once in close, If you can see you’re closing/overtaking the tanker, then it’s happening too fast.  
 

The essence of AAR is formation flying.  If you don’t have a solid grasp of formation flying, you won’t be able to AAR, and vise versa.  So it’s an essential skill for any fighter pilot, even in DCS.  The best thing I can recommend is to start practicing with the KC-130, it’s the easiest to learn on.  Once you have that, then transition to the KC-135 and then the S-3.   Good luck, and don’t give up but also don’t let yourself become frustrated.  It takes time and practice to get right, but once you do it’s like riding a bike.  The Hornet is the easiest to learn due to the FBW.  Don’t let the engines spool too far down when reducing power, and stand them right back up to your neutral position as soon as you see a change in trend. It’s all about small corrections.  Better controls help, but it can be done!

A fighter pilot that can’t AAR is like a driver that can only turn left.