AI instantly reacts to ARH missile launch

[Arctic Fox]

It seems like the AI is now capable of detecting and defending against ARH missiles the moment the missile leaves the rail at essentially any range (that I could test) now. Previously they started dispensing countermeasures when the weapon was fired but didn't begin maneuvering defensively until the missile actually went active. This happens at all AI skill levels.

 

While I'd expect higher skill opposition to realistically be able to defend preemptively against missiles using the BVR timeline, the current behaviour is blatantly unrealistic. ARH missile launches do not trigger launch warnings in DCS so even aircraft with proper RWR equipment should not be able to defend against a missile that has not yet gone active with perfect timing like that.

 

I've attached a track and TacView file showing the AI defending the moment I launch at a range of over 40nm.

Tacview-20210414-201447-DCS-AMRAAM Test.zip.acmi AI Missile Defence.trk

[Alesia_Aisela]

Same issue.  @BIGNEWY this is especially bad. 

Tacview-20210414-102840-DCS.txt.acmi bvrinstantdefendtest.trk

[Bruce_D]

+1 

Tacview-20210414-174749-DCS-Phoenix.zip.acmi TWS.trk

[Martin2487]

Yes, I can definitely confirm this problem. It also existed before the DCS update to version 2.7. I mentioned it on ED BIGNEWY discord. I would like the ED to give it some priority. It quite affects the air-to-air mission with AI. The problem did not appear with the update, but it existed before. It didn't work that way before. AI knows about the AIM-120C missile almost immediately after dropping when the missile makes a loft. Performs defensive maneuvers immediately and fires chaff.

[NineLine]

Thanks guys, investigating.

[NineLine]

Reported, thanks!

[Saruman]

Please do note same thing happens with Phoenix too. They are useless right now, because as soon as they leave the rail AI immediately dives and/or begins evasive maneuveurs, so you cannot effectively engage at distance.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Saruman

[Bruce_D]

2 hours ago, Saruman said:

Please do note same thing happens with Phoenix too. They are useless right now, because as soon as they leave the rail AI immediately dives and/or begins evasive maneuveurs, so you cannot effectively engage at distance.

 

My track and tacview is with Phoenix

[SCPanda]

AIs are all seeing and all knowing. Fear them, or they will become skynet. lol

[Bruce_D]

New Patch, same problem!

Tacview-20210423-103253-DCS-Phoenix.zip.acmi

[Raidhen]

4 hours ago, Bruce_D said:

New Patch, same problem!

 

Did you see a fix in the last patch ?

[Bruce_D]

They fixed some AI behavior, but not this, not even mentioned 

[84-Simba]

Did someone tried to launch from behind ?

I know it is highly unrealistic but it may be useful for EDs to debug ...

[Sonoda Umi]

I have to say that this issue exists for years.

Every time, you can see that the AI takes evading maneuvers immediately as soon as FOX 3 missile launches. The AI dodges Active Radar Missile instantly, and it ignores distance even through  RWR not go active.

The outcome is that you can hardly hit AI at a long-range attack but the AI will hit you easily.

[SCPanda]

Yeah it's such a pain in the ass doing any PVE air to air now. TBH, 2.7 broke a lot of stuff. 

[KoN]

+1

PvE

hoggit .

[TMS up]

I know It's reported but Just wanted to raise awareness to this issue as well... +1

[Bruce_D]

11 minutes ago, AirborneZed said:

I know It's reported but Just wanted to raise awareness to this issue as well... +1

Totally, it is the most important problem to be solved IMHO!

[Furiz]

Yes, this is very important.

 

Pls take special care in SU25 AI that one is the stealth fighter bomber of the 31st century.

[Sonoda Umi]

it is the most important problem to be solved + max

 

It should be the most important reason why I am not willing to take BVR/long-range A2A engagements.

 

It makes me spend most of my time on BFM Gun Only games. Sad.

[Schmidtfire]

This really needs to be resolved. it's almost impossible to make long range BVR shots against the AI. At launch the AI will make a split-s pumping chaff
(chaff = missile kryptonite in DCS).

Obviously ED has many things under development, but this should be top priority. Not making the WWII AI do water ditching/landings.
It's a cool feature, but AI behaviour that deeply affects gameplay mechanics and use of modules should be prioritized first. 

[GGTharos]

On one hand you're right, on the other, what makes you believe an opponent would sit there and wait for the missile warning?  I mean it depends on doctrines and tactics and training, but generally speaking when facing an opponent with a specific weapons system, you'll have countermeasures to spoil their shots.   You're not going to sit there fat dumb and happy waiting for the missile warning and act surprised.

[Schmidtfire]

48 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

On one hand you're right, on the other, what makes you believe an opponent would sit there and wait for the missile warning?  I mean it depends on doctrines and tactics and training, but generally speaking when facing an opponent with a specific weapons system, you'll have countermeasures to spoil their shots.   You're not going to sit there fat dumb and happy waiting for the missile warning and act surprised.

I agree, but this is with perfect timing of the launch 100% of the time, no matter skill level. We cannot have it like that.
Why should I waste a missile at 30nm when Im totally sure that the bandit will "see" my missile coming of the rail and start to defeat it? 

Within a certain range and with me cranking after launch, I totally buy a defensive move in anticipation.

So I agree that AI should not sit completely defenseless. Ideally, skill level and aircraft type would come more into play. 
Some older aircraft like the MIG-23 MLA and MIG-21 wouldn't have the SA to notice a post launch maneuver and and I doubt that the
SPO-10 would be very helpful aginst the AIM-54 or AIM-120 until final phase of flight. 

[GGTharos]

They don't even need to anticipate in reaction to what you're doing, it can be doctrinal which again, the simulator doesn't model at all (there no way to model a 'combat plan').

I agree that they shouldn't act the way they do now - ie with perfect knowledge, and I'm reasonably certain that this is a bug that ED is looking into - also reported on the Russian forums.

 

SPO-10 should probably not pick up a 120 at all.

[BreaKKer]

Any update on this for today’s patch?