NEW: Hook Physics?

[CoBlue]

DCS: F-14 Tomcat by Heatblur Simulations  06-16-2021

 

• NEW: Hook Physics

  • Added physics based hook model.

  • Hook will skip now if landing too fast.

  • Hook will shear off when arresting with excess kinetic energy.

  • Hook no longer clips through ground. (Spectators and RIO may notice some clipping due to network lag.)

  • Added collision shell to hook. 

  • Hook can now be damaged by gunfire or explosions and detach from the aircraft.

  • Added spark effects and hook break sounds.

 

Hey HB & thank you for the new patch & especially the work on the new Hook Physics!

 

However. I did allot of Case1 test traps today & didn't experience any hook-skips when fast/slow. The only new thing was the "burble" (good job btw.!) but the trap-physics was the same as before the patch. I could be slow/fast & no hook-skips.

 

So I deliberately did 6 very fast traps with AOA ≈+5-9 & I trapped every time? Can you look into this or is it still WIP?

 

As you can see I'm way to fast, the "E" bracket is on the top of the Hud & AOA +8 units, way below the required +15 units.

[Cobra847]

Keep in mind there is no scripting to this. You may have just gotten lucky.

 

If your hook will intersect with a wire (within reasonable limits); you will still trap. So even if you slam your hook on the deck and it bounces; it may simple have dropped enough to catch another wire. 

[bonesvf103]

21 minutes ago, Cobra847 said:

Keep in mind there is no scripting to this. You may have just gotten lucky.

 

If your hook will intersect with a wire (within reasonable limits); you will still trap. So even if you slam your hook on the deck and it bounces; it may simple have dropped enough to catch another wire. 

 

Which, if you think about it, is some really great logics, programming, and physics!

 

v6,

boNes

[IronMike]

What @Cobra847 said and additionally:

it is not only speed, but also AOA and vertical velocity. So if you come in fast but shallow, it is possible you will just drag it into the wires. The same is if you make it skip further astern, as it will have more time to come back down and catch a wire. 

It isn't that easy to get it to skip. If you want to test, whether the physics are working for you at all, try ripping it off.

I won't tell you the moment it breaks (because it takes the fun away) but for testing purposes I will tell you that if you trap with 185 kts fully laden (breaking point is far below this speed), you will sheer off your hook.

[bkthunder]

I was pulling my hair out when I tried it the first time after the update, I shit you not, I couldn't trap for 12 times in a row! Provided I was pretty rusty. 

After a few more tires i got my skills back, but I can definitely see a difference now compared to when you could just fly in at whatever AoA/Speed/glide-path and it would trap.

Edited June 19, 2021 by bkthunder

[Love_Beam]

On 6/18/2021 at 10:10 AM, IronMike said:

What @Cobra847 said and additionally:

it is not only speed, but also AOA and vertical velocity. So if you come in fast but shallow, it is possible you will just drag it into the wires. The same is if you make it skip further astern, as it will have more time to come back down and catch a wire. 

It isn't that easy to get it to skip. If you want to test, whether the physics are working for you at all, try ripping it off.

I won't tell you the moment it breaks (because it takes the fun away) but for testing purposes I will tell you that if you trap with 185 kts fully laden (breaking point is far below this speed), you will sheer off your hook.

If you land overweight will it rip off?

[fat creason]

1 hour ago, Love_Beam said:

If you land overweight will it rip off?

 

Yes, the hook shearing off is a function of the kinetic energy (a function of mass and velocity) being absorbed by the hook from the arresting gear. If you trap heavy and fast, there's a decent chance you shear the hook off. Remember that at higher speeds/lower AOAs the hook is less likely to grab a wire.

 

Here's a hook break happening in real life:

This was most likely a break due to fatigue, a maintenance issue, or a problem with the arresting gear since an approach too far out of parameters would've been waived off before the plane reached the wires.

Edited June 21, 2021 by fat creason

[WelshZeCorgi]

I would try carrier landing in adverse conditions, high winds and choppy seas, causing the ship to rock. It may be much easier to cause a bad hook skip vs the old model where you would always catch a wire in those conditions if you land among the wires. 

@CoBlue

Edited June 21, 2021 by WelshZeCorgi

[Swordsman422]

Fat Creason, that tailhook broke off due to age and corrosion in an area that was not typically inspected by maintenance. VF-211 lost that jet only about a month after VF-143 lost a plane on launch due to the nose gear shearing off for the same reason. Both incidents led to the grounding of F-14s fleet wide for a safety stand down and inspections. I recall in an interview one aviator commented that he'd been told in training that these two parts on the jet that would never fail and here they had both failed in the course of a month. It was a telling sign of how old the Tomcats had become.

[fat creason]

2 hours ago, Swordsman422 said:

Fat Creason, that tailhook broke off due to age and corrosion in an area that was not typically inspected by maintenance. VF-211 lost that jet only about a month after VF-143 lost a plane on launch due to the nose gear shearing off for the same reason. Both incidents led to the grounding of F-14s fleet wide for a safety stand down and inspections. I recall in an interview one aviator commented that he'd been told in training that these two parts on the jet that would never fail and here they had both failed in the course of a month. It was a telling sign of how old the Tomcats had become.

 

Great info, thanks!

[Victory205]

A VF41 F14A broke a nose strut where the launch bar attached in 1986-87 timeframe. We were at sea and there was no way to inspect (NDI) the struts on the F14 fleet. Therefore, the stand down lasted about 12 hours, and we were declared “launch-worthy” again, and operations continued unabated.

 

The mishap aircraft (flown by a USAF exchange pilot) would have been around seven to ten years old, IIRC.

[Swordsman422]

21 hours ago, Victory205 said:

A VF41 F14A broke a nose strut where the launch bar attached in 1986-87 timeframe. We were at sea and there was no way to inspect (NDI) the struts on the F14 fleet. Therefore, the stand down lasted about 12 hours, and we were declared “launch-worthy” again, and operations continued unabated.

 

The mishap aircraft (flown by a USAF exchange pilot) would have been around seven to ten years old, IIRC.

 

Are you sure the plane wasn't just committing seppuku after being touched by an Air Force guy?

 

What was the ultimate cause of this mishap? Same corrosion as the VF-143 loss?

[Spiceman]

On 6/22/2021 at 10:57 AM, Victory205 said:

A VF41 F14A broke a nose strut where the launch bar attached in 1986-87 timeframe. We were at sea and there was no way to inspect (NDI) the struts on the F14 fleet. Therefore, the stand down lasted about 12 hours, and we were declared “launch-worthy” again, and operations continued unabated.

 

The mishap aircraft (flown by a USAF exchange pilot) would have been around seven to ten years old, IIRC.

I was on the deck for that one. He said thankfully he felt something unusual at the end of the cat stroke that caused him to not put the gear up, because chances are it not only wouldn’t have come back down, but the flailing bungees would have torn up god knows what in the nose wheel well. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by Spiceman

[RustBelt]

On 6/22/2021 at 7:56 AM, Swordsman422 said:

Fat Creason, that tailhook broke off due to age and corrosion in an area that was not typically inspected by maintenance. 

Yea I thought there was a sheer point on the Shoe of the hook just so that that pops off before it rips off a big hunk of the hook mechanism. 

[WelshZeCorgi]

My question is, how do you trap a hookless Tomcat?

 

using the barrier obviously, but that's not modelled currently in the DCS SC.

[Spurts]

burn off all fuel, drop all munitions, line up with carrier centerline, come in on speed but steep and way above glideslope, (1500+fpm descent) and hope the pancake of a landing only breaks the gear and doesn't explode the jet.

 

Alternatively, overfly the deck and low alt and punch out and see if the deck physics is working to catch you.

[Top Jockey]

On 6/25/2021 at 3:16 PM, WelshZeCorgi said:

My question is, how do you trap a hookless Tomcat?

 

using the barrier obviously, but that's not modelled currently in the DCS SC.

 

By mere curiosity I've been experimenting this... and it seems VERY difficult without destroying the aircraft.

The logic (common sense) solution, would be the barricade net which will eventually be available for the Supercarrier.

 

- rows of static objects on deck, like tires with flags, cows and even the flight deck tractors, seem to have little or no effect in stopping the Tomcat;

(the cows do die, but the deck tractors seem to be ignored collision wise...)

- on the other hand, wodden logs, "small" concrete barriers and even a canvas tent, will make the Tomcat explode when the nose gear collide with them !

- the main gears seem to be prone to get ripped, hindering that way the aircraft's motion; but a nose gear collision seems to cause fatal explosion.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Top Jockey

[Top Jockey]

Well, just for curiosity sake, after some experimenting:

 

In-game it is possible to "trap" a hookless Tomcat... without it exploding or get severelly damaged.

(Although in reality my experiment conditions would mean serious damage to the airframe / aircraft.)

 

... coming in very light, very slow, pulling the brakes right on touch-down, and finally colliding with hard static "cargo" objects at roughly 30 kts speed, on the very bow of the ship.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Top Jockey

[draconus]

10 hours ago, Top Jockey said:

coming in very light, very slow, pulling the brakes right on touch-down, and finally colliding with hard static

...or just set up high WOD in the mission

[Top Jockey]

5 hours ago, draconus said:

...or just set up high WOD in the mission

 

Hello,

High WOD ? What is that ?

 

edit

wind over deck ?

Edited November 15, 2021 by Top Jockey

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Top Jockey said:

wind over deck ?

Yes, you can do crazy things in strong wind.

[bonesvf103]

So I've been seeing posts that people have been trying to break the hook off just to see if it happen and it wasn't happening for them.  I kinda stopped looking for reports of this after a while.

Then, last night my pilot who was rusty landed fast on the boat.  We boltered but we heard some noise that seemed new.  I thought it was us ramp striking, but didn't think that much of it until our LSO called, "uh, confirm your hook is down."  WE both looked at the hook lever and confirmed it was down.  But then he said we had no hook!  Haha that was what the noise was!

External view showed it clearly, and you can hear it in the video at 29:17

 

 

It was pretty funny!

 

v6,

boNes

[Quid]

1 hour ago, bonesvf103 said:

So I've been seeing posts that people have been trying to break the hook off just to see if it happen and it wasn't happening for them.  I kinda stopped looking for reports of this after a while.

Then, last night my pilot who was rusty landed fast on the boat.  We boltered but we heard some noise that seemed new.  I thought it was us ramp striking, but didn't think that much of it until our LSO called, "uh, confirm your hook is down."  WE both looked at the hook lever and confirmed it was down.  But then he said we had no hook!  Haha that was what the noise was!

External view showed it clearly, and you can hear it in the video at 29:17

 

 

It was pretty funny!

 

v6,

boNes

It's also exacerbated by weight (as pointed out by FC back in June).  We recently had someone lose their tailhook and I asked what their configuration was (we had externals shut off).  They were still packing 5 of their 6 AIM-54s and had a good quantity of fuel left.  If memory serves they were close to 8000lbs above max trap.  I just took a look at your configuration during that landing attempt.  If DCS does consider the weights of the pylons, you guys were more than 3000lbs above max trap when the hook broke given your fuel state, remaining missiles, and all attached pylons and stores, which probably didn't help.

Suffice to say, yes, the hook still breaks off!

[bonesvf103]

Good points.  I believe we were state 8.5 when we trapped at that time.  We only had 2 Phoenix left, all other missiles had been shot off (we got 4 kills on the hop).  Also we were still carrying our empty fuel tanks.

He was approaching fast too.  155 KIAS or so.  He'd been away for 2 weeks or so so he was REALLY rusty, and sloppy in the pattern but we were the only ones in the pattern so that was sorta forgivable.  At least our human LSO thought so, haha.

v6,

boNes

 

Edited December 21, 2021 by bonesvf103

[Tulkas]

Yesterday I broke my first hook. The thing is I was quite light, just two sidewinders left and emergency fuel, 2000lbs or so. CASEIII in a no horizont night. I though I touched down on speed. I checked tacview afterwards, 133kts and 10,1 alfa. The guy before me trapped way too fast, 145kts and 7 alfa, and with phoenix still on board, nothing happened to his hook. So there I was, no hook in the darkest night an no divert

While I’m happy with a degree of randomness so things do not always break at the exactly same parameters, on speed hook breaking is not fun as long as we don’t have barrier After I saw my buddy landing at 145kts and keeping his hook while I lost it I wished I had crashed on him after ejecting.