Should I buy an AMD card if DCS is going Vulkan?

[parxuk]

Sorry if this has been discussed previously.

 

Having fairly recently upgraded from Rift S to Reverb G2, I am finding my Nvidia 1080TI card lacking the performance I would hope for.

 

I had planned to upgrade to a 3080TI, and although they are still ridiculously expensive, they are begining to come down in price and at least you can buy them now, as opposed to only dream a few months ago.

 

However, I would hope this GFX card would last me a minimum of 2 years so I want to make sure I can future proof myself a bit.

 

My gaming PC is only used for DCS, so there are no other games to consider. 

 

With DCS looking to go Vulkan at some point in the (hopefully near) future, I have heard AMD cards work better with Vulkan than Nvidia. Is this true? Would I be better off getting AMD to go with Vulkan/DCS, or is there no real difference in which case I may stick with 3080TI?

 

Thanks for your comments

[Droning_On]

Watching this one with interest...... Im in the AMD 'Stream' just know and was considering going the other direction   nice to have some choices for a change even if they are all over £1000 

[Lurker]

Vulkan should be pretty much GPU agnostic. It's basically a modern more fancy version of OpenGL, or at least it's heavily based on OpenGL, and should work equally well with either Nvidia or AMD graphics cards. 

[FoxTwo]

AMD beats Nvidia for pure rasterization performance and driver draw call CPU efficiency. In theory this should provide a superior experience in DCS.

[mmarques]

I've been using a 6900XT for the past 6 months or so and I can say, it's truly a beast of a GPU.

Playing DCS at 144FPS at 1440p (not in VR of course).

Edited July 9, 2021 by mmarques

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

Based on what I have heard, AMD should indeed be better at any low-overhead API (both DX12 and Vulkan), because of how the hardware is designed. If I remember correctly, it has to do with the scheduler being software-based for nVidia (creating more CPU overhead), and hardware-based for AMD.

[Pappen]

Vulkan is not based on OpenGL it's based on Mantel...

 

[eaglecash867]

I don't think I can remember a time when Vulkan wasn't just around the corner for DCS, and I've been on this forum since 2010.  So, don't let Vulkan hold you up.  Just checked on 3090 availability and its sad to see that even a dealer I trusted like Newegg is allowing scalpers as 3rd party vendors on their site.  You can get a 3090, if you're willing to pay 3000 bucks to a scalper.  

[Voyager]

Just wait and watch the secondhand market. Prices are dropping, and there is always a used GPU price crash when the miners let up. There will be again. 

[Rifter]

All theory about Vulcan induced advantages of an AMD GPU is destroyed on the practical VR side at the moment - actually by AMD itself with lots of help of their own AMD LiquidVR™ technology.

 

I’ve tested a 6900xt and a 3090 on my machine with a Rift S and a Reverb G2. The 6900xt cannot implement it’s full pancake-power in the VR-world at the moment, especially not in DCS. It’s not that there would be a big difference in pure FPS, but AMD GPUs are extremely prone to frame drops because of high frame time variance and a bad ratio of low and high frame times. That is poison for VR.

 

As a remark for 6800 or 6900 owners struggling with stuttering in VR: I used the MorePowerTool to deactivate DS_GFXCLK, DS_SOCCLK, DS_FCLK, DS_LCLK, DS_DCEFCLK and DS_UCLK and raised the minimum voltage for GFX and SoC by 25mV. This helps a lot with the technical disadvantage of the AMD hardware scheduler when the CPU struggles with filling the draw call pipeline which sends the GPU into a short sleep.

 

By the way - that other flight simulator which switched to Vulcan some time ago cannot shine on the 6900xt on my side. The 3090 is superior here too.

 

As a member of team green for many years a would have loved to switch to the 6900xt because it’s really a great card. I tested the reference design - it’s well build and running on an unbelievable low noise level when maxed out. The 3090 I could get my hands on is an EVGA XC3 and it’s loud and power hungry and 2 x 8 pin only power design. Honestly not the best choice for a 3090 variant.

 

Believe it or not: I was able to run the 6900xt out of the box with a Seasonic 600W fanless PSU! But there is still a lot of headroom for undervolting since the GPUs of the 6900xt are binned. Efficiency is the strong point of AMD GPUs.

 

I managed to undervolt the 3090 to a level that it could also run with a 600W PSU. But then it’s definitely downgraded to the level of a 3080. The advantage over the 6900xt remains on the frame time and frame time variance side. Technically it’s a 3080 with 24GB video memory now.

 

I will keep the 3090 and will water-cool it.

[schmiefel]

37 minutes ago, Rifter said:

It’s not that there would be a big difference in pure FPS, but AMD GPUs are extremely prone to frame drops because of high frame time variance and a bad ratio of low and high frame times. That is poison for VR.

That's what I learned the hard way 1st switching from the green side (GTX 1060) to a Vega 64 (highly oc'ed Sapphire one) and didn't see much improvement in VR and then going to a 5700XT (PowerColor Red Devil oc'ed series) because of the lack of available RTX 3080 ones then. Besides its performing slightly better than the Vega it's just not as good in VR as I expected compared to its 2D performance. So, if VR is the main focus I would not try any AMD GPU at the moment but wait until prices for current NVIDIA GPUs drop further. And seeing the 5700XT struggling in a flight simulation with the option for using Vulkan as well I wouldn't bet that DCS would get a decent performance push from this API, too, at least with AMD GPUs until they could basically improve their drivers and firmware stuff for VR usage.

Edited July 11, 2021 by schmiefel

[*Rage*]

I can only agree, switching from 6800xt to 3080ti myself. 

[C3PO]

My last AMD card was the ATI 9700 Pro way back in 2003. Good card for its time. But went nVidia ever since.

[parxuk]

Thanks for the replies/advice.

 

As VR performance is my primary driver for an upgrade, it sounds like I should stick with nvidia.

 

Now the question is will the current range of cards ever come down or near to MSRP prices, or do I just sell a kidney and get on with it?

[Voyager]

2 hours ago, parxuk said:

Thanks for the replies/advice.

 

As VR performance is my primary driver for an upgrade, it sounds like I should stick with nvidia.

 

Now the question is will the current range of cards ever come down or near to MSRP prices, or do I just sell a kidney and get on with it?

 

Wait. The crypto miners are dumping cards in China, with bulk sales going for less than MSRP. It will take about a month or two for them to get to Europe and the States, just because of bulk shipping times, but we will see another market crash here too. 

 

Just be ready to deep clean any used mining card you get. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Voyager

[unlikely_spider]

29 minutes ago, Voyager said:

Just be ready to deep clean any used mining card you get. 

What does this mean? Will it be covered in coal dust or something?

[Voyager]

55 minutes ago, unlikely_spider said:

What does this mean? Will it be covered in coal dust or something?

As I gather they've been running 24/7 in a humid region with poor air quality.

 

If you've lived in a hot humid climate you'll discover dust just loves to glue itself to *everything*. Might as well open it up and make sure you have cooling fins instead of a dust bunny the size of a peach... 

[Eaglewings]

The vr experiences with amd gpu on this thread is truly an eye opener for me.
Actually my mind was fixed on amd for my vr induced upgrade plans. Vram size is just too good on the red team. Sad that this frame time things is a drawback for such a great cards from amd.
Looking up the green side again but the upper end cards are off budget for me.
Perhaps a 3070ti at close to msrp.

[ignition22]

3080ti and G2 is still going to disappoint. Id recommend just keep on waiting if you can until the next gfx card series 

[Hartsblade]

Just a YMMV option for AMD cards. I'm running a 6900 xt coupled with a 5800x. I run my Index with DCS settings well above the DCS VR preset and pull a solid 60 fps (with a drop to 40 fps down low over cities on maps like The Channel). SteamVR is at 200% and 120Hz.

 

In regards to frame drops/stuttering, my frame times are running in the low to mid teens with no spikes (or at least so few I am not seeing them when I glance at fpsvr). The one setting that throws the whole thing into the dumps is if I enable Motion Smoothing. With Motion Smoothing enabled the game becomes a spikefest and unplayable. I have Motion Smoothing and Advanced Supersampling Filter turned OFF.

 

Like I said this is my personal experience and YMMV.

[Marco Schaap]

Can vouch for a 5800x / 6900 XT (Sapphire Nitro+) too, having great experience in contrary to a 3080 I used in january - february due tue a) poor drivers, b) little VRAM and c) absolutely minimal overhead regarding OC'ing, so what you get out of the box is what you keep.

 

Pure rasterization the 6900 XT beats Nvidia out of the park (and it has major headroom), except maybe for the 3090 which incomparable because of it's price (even in MSRP). I came from a 2080Ti and the increase in performance going from 2080Ti to 3080 in VR was not impressive to me.

 

I can only hope what FSR or a comparable technique from Nvidia (for the Nvidia userbase) might bring for DCS especially for the 1% and .1% lows.

[ctguy1955]

 Win 10 only has until 2025 and then all MB's have to have TPL and My Maximus VII Formula does not, so I cant use win 11.
I like My Corsair ATX case and already have a corsair 1050 PSU, and My EVGA 2080Ti is fine.
     Going back 4 years ago with 2 watercooled GTX 680's, I was able to run My PC at over 5Ghz 
and now it always crashes if I go over 4.8    I won the lottery when it came to My devils canyon
and what I should be asking instead of writing all of the above is:

    Is the speed of a new CPU more important for running DCS 2.7 and future versions rather then the number of CORES ?
I thought DCS only uses 2 cores, one for sound and one for graphics ?     

Intel Core i7-10700KF Desktop Processor 8 Cores up to 5.1 GHz Unlocked Without Processor Graphics LGA1200 (Intel 400 Series chipset) 125W

 

Intel Core i7-10700K Desktop Processor 8 Cores up to 5.1 GHz Unlocked LGA1200 (Intel 400 Series Chipset) 125W (BX8070110700K)

 

 

 Intel Core i7-11700K Desktop Processor 8 Cores up to 5.0 GHz Unlocked LGA 1200 125W Bundle with ROG Strix Z590-E Gaming WiFi Motherboard DDR4 4X M.2, USB 3.2 Type-C Aura Sync RGB

 

ASUS ROG Strix Z490-H Gaming Z490 LGA 1200 (Intel 10th Gen) ATX Gaming Motherboard (12+2 Power Stages,DDR4 4600, Intel 2.5 Gb Ethernet, USB 3.2 Gen 2, Aura Sync)

    Rog has many MB's and I have the ability to water cool the MB like 
I do with the 6 year old one I have now.  

   If speed of CPU is the best thing for DCS rather then number of cores
would the above KF or K version be ok, and would a series 11 rather then
a series 10 be better or should I just save the money as DCS has had many
years to update to Direct X 12 and never did so.  I know Vulkan or whatever
new thing is called may replace DX12, and I am sorry I don't know this info.

   Thank You for any links or help in this matter,  I just sold My 2016 HD Dyna
and now have the money to upgrade my PC and wish to do so ASAP !

   Clear Skies
       Mike

  Best CPU for VR Gaming (2020) | GamersByNight   this info has me spending over 500 on just a cpu ???
 

[Hartsblade]

On 7/14/2021 at 1:36 PM, Hartsblade said:

Just a YMMV option for AMD cards. I'm running a 6900 xt coupled with a 5800x. I run my Index with DCS settings well above the DCS VR preset and pull a solid 60 fps (with a drop to 40 fps down low over cities on maps like The Channel). SteamVR is at 200% and 120Hz.

 

In regards to frame drops/stuttering, my frame times are running in the low to mid teens with no spikes (or at least so few I am not seeing them when I glance at fpsvr). The one setting that throws the whole thing into the dumps is if I enable Motion Smoothing. With Motion Smoothing enabled the game becomes a spikefest and unplayable. I have Motion Smoothing and Advanced Supersampling Filter turned OFF.

 

Like I said this is my personal experience and YMMV.

Just a quick note. I've made one change to my settings that has given me a bit of a boost. Lowering the refresh rate from 120Hz to 90Hz in SteamVR is giving me fairly steady 88-90fps (with a dip to 45fps low over a city). Frame times (both CPU and GPU) have dropped below 10ms.

 

Still have motion smoothing and advanced super sampling turned off. Aslo in the AMD Catalyst software I pushed the AMD Sharpening from 80% to 100%

Edited July 26, 2021 by Hartsblade
Spelling

[j-tk]

AMD might be out of business by the time we see Vulcan if it's normal DCS backburner time line.