An Open Letter to the Community

[Maulkin]

The word is indeed final as far as I know, that the CP will be SF, and it will require online/phone activation. I don't know the details of the activations (ie, will they actually be limited, vs. getting a perpetual activation/deactivation cycle).

 

I really don't see what the problem is here (at least with unlimited deactivations) as this isn't any more of a hassle than entering a CD key, at least for the on-line part.

 

In the end, as was said in the originating post of this thread - while ED values each customer, it is also the case that ED knows they cannot please anyone, and you are naturally free to vote with your wallet so to speak. It is certainly unfortunate if this deters you or anyone else from acquiring DCS.

 

To be honest I don't really care if they go with Starforce or whatever. It is the limited installs thing that I cannot agree to. If it is unlimited activation/deactiviations or whatever, I do not mind doing that at all. It is the word 'limited' that bothers me. I don't like the idea that I am renting the software.

 

I have already been burned with that type of CP before when I got my father a sailing boat simulator, and now he can't use it because it was limited to only 3 installations. I contacted the company that made the sim and they told me I had to purchase another license to get another three installations.

 

And I think you meant to say "ED knows they cannot please everyone" ;) I am sure they will please somebody. :)

 

BTW Thanks Tharos for discussing this with us.

[Vosene]

You are being given the key to that software - assuming you get an unlimited activation/deactivation cycle, what is the problem? Is typing that key in when you install really that big of a problem for you?

 

...and there, highlighted in bold, is the problem for a great many people, we are reliant on the publisher to continue to let us use a product we have already paid for in full.

Edited October 27, 2008 by Vosene

[ALDEGA]

Further, why would a company in their right mind strip it after 6-12 months when people might still want to buy this or that module?

Didn't Ubisoft remove the cd-check in Lockon 1.02? Alas, we can only speculate why Ubisoft did this.

[Groove]

So we better don't speculate at all.

[Maulkin]

It was removed? You referring to when Black Shark needed the CD in all the time and then they change it such that the CD only had to be put in for verification once a week?

[Maulkin]

So we better don't speculate at all.

 

That is true, but it is good to get all these questions out now so that ED will know what concerns us as consumers so that they might be able to help us make an informed decision. :)

[GranCalvo]

It is enough to sell the pirate copy at 5-10% less than the original for people to buy it instead of the original, GranCalvo. To a large degree, I would think in such cases it really is a lot of lost sales.

 

As far as the actual number of lost sales, you seem to be thinking that because it cannot be judged with extreme accuracy, it should be ignored. I disagree, and obviously, so does ED.

 

Again, even if lost sales is only 5-10%, the actual amount of money it represents is a very large sum - so yes, it does make sense.

 

Thanks again for your answers. No, I'm not saying that. My english is not good enough to express myself, so I think You misunderstood me. I say that you have not precise numbers, but you use the piracy as main sales loses. 5%-10% could be a lot if you sell a lot, but if you sell 3000 is not many. But, anyway, you don't know exactly if there is a 5%, 1%, 0.5% or 90%. Also, you don't know how much loses are from anti copy protection system. Do you?. May be another 5%. May be, we don't know, but there is people who says that they will not buy the game with limited activations, as you can see. Another people does not say anything, but may be they won't buy it anyway for the same reason.

How do you explain that games which are pirated a lot are selling a lot?. I'm sure you know many examples.

There is another thing you may consider. Piracy risk is higher when you release the game. After 1 or 2 years after release, sales decrease a lot because people are less interested. I suppose that you don't sell many units of Flaming Cliffs right now. Why don't you release a patch, after 1 year, to avoid limited activations?. Take 2 made it with Bioshock, EA did it with Mass Effect and will do it with Spore. Egosoft made it with X series. But ED still continues with the protection system for FC, when there is not influence in sales after 2 years after release.

There is people who stole cars. Imagine a company who obligates their customers to draconian security measures for driving the car. :D Thanks again

[Vosene]

In order for the CP to continue to work, it cannot be stripped from previous releases. Further, why would a company in their right mind strip it after 6-12 months when people might still want to buy this or that module?

 

It's a deal between the publisher and the consumer. The customer accepts DRM for a limited period in the knowledge that we will be able to use the product in 6-12 months without having the well known issues of DRM while the publishers gets the opportunity to use DRM without a big backlash during the period when any game makes the most sales, in the first 6 months or so after release. If users buy a new module then that comes with DRM but if you stick with the base module then it won't be an issue.

 

It would also stop publishers from having to keep costly servers and the activation details on them up and running for years to support a product with a dwindling user base. There are several companies recently who have tried to stop supporting DRM products due to cost (mostly in the music business) but who have been forced to keep the servers active due to a customer outcry.

 

If handled correctly there is the opportunity of a win-win with this approach.

Edited October 27, 2008 by Vosene

[Havner]

You are being given the key to that software - assuming you get an unlimited activation/deactivation cycle, what is the problem? Is typing that key in when you install really that big of a problem for you?

 

Change that assumption to certainty and add a promise that you will remove that activation completely in an unfortunate situation that ED will go down.

 

That might be a solution for us customers.

[Heatseeker2K3]

The latest DRM screwups are turning many potential customers away from products while doing squat to prevent illegal distribution, infact this CP system will affect the owners or legitimate software more so than the rest.

I cant see myself sending mails to tech support and having to wait days or even hours to be able to run the products i paid for. What if a product is no longer supported but i still have interest in it? I dont mind activation, i just dont want limited activations, atleast forever..

 

Complaining is easy though..

 

The other day i asked myself what would i do in order to secure a product as best as possible with minimal hassle for the customer?

What i imagined seemed good for a product such as this (high replay value, to be expanded and supported in the future).

 

The product release is the critical time for things to go wrong, its the time when a copy might be leaked and made available before the product even ships to retail (real bad) and its also the time when demand is at its peek and so are the risks.

For the initial release powerfull and even user restrictive CP methods should be used as long as they are effective BUT these should be removed further down the road.

Some time after release the protection should consist of restricting support for bad copies, such as patches, expantions, etc, as the product grows and becomes better people will want the whole thing in its best possible shape.

 

The DCS idea is really good and since the product is meant to be improved and expanded in the future it will hopefully sell for years to come.

[Rikus]

You should be able to activate by phone; and I believe there might be an option for de-activating and then re-activating your install to deal with upgrades, but I don't know what is being done for the western release.

 

How much will cost the sim then? if you have too make expensive calls...

 

What i say, at the end, legal user has lots of problems: activations, starforce... and pirate not. A pity.

 

Greetings

Edited October 27, 2008 by Rikus

[Orao]

Hello,

 

I was looking forward to buy Black Shark even though I'm not a helicopter fan. Nevertheless I wanted to support the ED by buying their product and supporting them as the only company on the market still producing combat flight sims along with Lead Poursuite and fighter ops. I have Flanker 2.0, Lockon and Flaming Cliffs legally bought. Yet when I read the open letter addressed to the community by ED I must say that I was in shock.

 

Their decision to implement online activation system despite the fact that we have the DVD is a buy stopper for me. I want to be able to play the software 10 years later no matter what.

 

For those who say that in 10 years you will not use it well reconsider your opinion please. I have Falcon 4.0 and Jane's F/A-18. I still play them yet software companies who made the soft are not any more.

 

And BTW why do we have to be punished because of handful people ?

 

So to sum up.

 

Should the ED maintain their policy for activation need despite having the DVD and having agreed to install level 0 driver on my system they can count for sure minus one sale.

 

Cheers

[Cosmonaut]

I understand ED's need to protect their intellectual property but IMO limited activations is just a step too far. Yes other companies employ similar CP systems of registration and activation but almost all of them have been cracked. In fact some people buy the software legally but then choose to use an illegally pirated version becasue it's less hassle for them as an end user.

 

I think balance is needed for sure, when Lockon FC came out with the once a week CD checker I thought this was the best solution I could have ever imagined. A high level of security which actually made it easier for the customer than any other game on the market. Now with DCS: BS with registrations, activations, dvd checkers and reg back up utilities we have taken a huge step backwards and BS will become the most difficult game/sim or software to manage on your PC.

 

Gamers have been moving away from the PC choosing to buy consoles instead and one of the reasons is that the console offers you hassle free play, just place the disc in the machine and that's it, no hoops to jump through. Unfortunately the funny thing is that sales for console games out strip anything a flgihtsim could dream of and console games are the easiest games to copy or dl.

 

I know ED aren't just sitting their coming up with ways to make things more difficult and I know they're only doing what they feel is best for all of us but I just hope it works. I'd hate to see a situation where all of this new CP is in place and then guess what shows up for illegal download a few days after BS is released.

[TheMoose]

Myself I’m glad to see ED making extra efforts in protecting their Intellectual rights. I don’t blame them whatsoever; today’s PC market requires it. They have to adapt to that practice standard, as we have to adapt as well. ED is by far not the only ones making drastic measures to protect their rights. I already have many anti piracy software install on my gaming PC. My PC isn’t broken from any of them. I will purchase BS nevertheless without any worries. I’m confident in the support of ED team.

 

I have the digital download of FC since day 1 of release. I always did received very good and prompt support for getting more activation when I required them. Thanks for that support by the way ED.

 

Best regards in the success of DCS.

[drafz]

they need to promote the game.any CP system will be cracked. so , spend money on promoting the game.

 

my 2 cents.

[zaelu]

I don't mind any protection system as long as it doesnt bother me too much and none did till now... I don't expect to play a game beyond 10 years. If some one do... fine... but, don't fool yourself in believing that "many of the few" from here will play in 10 years BS and not other kick arse sim (or some stone age rock games maybe :P ). So ED is free to try to protect their work... but, as a inteligent organisation they should not hunt ghosts.

 

How logic is to spend more resources on "patching" the protection (which is boud to fail anyway if the hype gets a bit higher or stays the same) or to build a demo of something that apparently cannot be demoed partially? (I mean... how would Ka50 demo would be? one rotor helicopter?)

 

I appologize for the blunt words...

 

How would a Black Shark Demo be supperior to a "ilegal copy" of the hole thing? please ED think well about it.

 

Just my opinion... if I would be ED I would spend all the money thrown on CP on making Ads on all major gaming sites... it sure would get some of the money lost to piracy back.

 

Also... why not make downloadable content each month? New trucks, new cars, new textures, a bit more terrain, some more mod tools, anything to keep the product alive and to give opportunity to check a bit the user... you know... like Microsoft WGA on Windows Updates.

Edited October 27, 2008 by zaelu

[TheMoose]

How would a Black Shark Demo be supperior to a "ilegal copy" of the hole thing? please ED think well about it.

 

My apologies for being ''blunt'' but;

The purpose of a demo is to entice the user of purchasing the full product to get all the features that comes with it. ''nuff'' sayd...

Edited October 27, 2008 by TheMoose
was too direct

[hannibal]

i just hope i dont get hosed down as i did with my first ED purchase of Lock On GOLD... i was really pissed to find out that the Flaming Cliffs CD was defective, and after a month of trying to acquire a working replacement...it got me no where and wasted my cell phone plan minutes...

 

other than that i have not had any problems after BUYING FLAMING CLIFFS FOR THE SECOND TIME AROUND from the lockon.ru site....

[drafz]

fallout3 is released . in its russian version , it use starforce.

wich means ... actual starforce is planned to death .

[SUBS17]

A dongle is quite expensive and it is checked by software, thus can be hacked, too. :smilewink:

 

The one thing hackers can't influence is Subscription and thats the answer to the problem.:thumbup:

[SUBS17]

I can answer your questions, but I am speaking for myself now, not for ED.

 

The pirated vs. lost sales exchange is not 1:1. We'll not really know the actual exchange number.

 

What you CAN do is assume that once something is pirated, copies will be made and sold on the cheap in countries such as Russia, China, etc.

 

THOSE sales (where physical media is sold, but cheaper) are to a large degree lost sales IMHO.

Those who download (ie. they have an internet connection) might be a lower proportion of lost sales.

Here you have to either launch a very good study to discover what is what, or assume. Even a relatively low assumption (Assume 10% for example are lost sales) can be a VERY large monetary sum. Support you sell something for $10, and your 90% piracy figure is 1000000 people. How much money have you lost?

 

As far as Eagle Dynamics goes, they have the following data to base their decisions on:

 

Sales of LOMAC + LOMAC Infringements

Sales of LOFC + LOFC Infringements

 

Based on that data (ie. amount of money they made from each, and pirated copies of each seen floating about) they drew some conclusions which led them to believe that SF was effective in increasing their revenue.

 

I wonder how much money was made by AF compared to both lockon and FC because AF had no copy protection and nearly overnight was a top seller when it was released. The problem with Lockon when it was released was it was full of bugs and also for alot of PCs required patches and hardware upgrades. Not also forgetting the lack of features incomparison to AF if a sim is made that fulfills the wishes of the community to such an extent that no one would want a pirated copy everyone would want the original in order to keep getting new patches and you would have much higher sales compared to the previous sims. SF is also a catch 22 here by using it alot of people won't buy BS because of its bad reputation and no one wants their hardware adversely affected by malware. Any copy protection for a computer game must only be there to protect that one game and not affect anything else it shouldn't be active when the game is not in use and it should only be switched on once the game is activated, cd inserted or program folder high lighted aside that it should be off. Another thing that increases sales is advertising and the product must appeal to the consumer in other words don't expect too many sales of Black Shark in the west but if it were a western aircraft + advertising = lots of sales.

So far the most hack proof software I have used was one that required hardware that came with it in order to use it.:thumbup:

[GGTharos]

You must work in the simulation production business :)

[RedTiger]

I don't mind any protection system as long as it doesnt bother me too much and none did till now... I don't expect to play a game beyond 10 years. If some one do... fine... but, don't fool yourself in believing that "many of the few" from here will play in 10 years BS and not other kick arse sim

 

*snip*

 

 

I really don't mean to just pick on this part of your post, but I have to. What "other kick arse sim"? Right now we have LO/FC, whatever flavor of Falcon you want (and they all taste similar). Then you have Fighter Ops which...well...is it even in the alpha stage yet?

 

Besides this you have three broad groups I call "the oldies", "Oleg", and "the obscure theatre of operations". You can pick from old glide-ready sims from the 90s, whatever Oleg makes -- which will not be anything concerning modern air combat -- or pick something like Jet Thunder which is a niche of a niche. Not everyone wants to fly a mud mover in the Falkland/Malvinas war.

 

Therefore, I'd argue that you really, really, really do want to have your sim last you -at least- ten years.

 

The really sad thing about all of this stuff is that *I* personally want ED to succeed and keep making sims. To be perfectly honest, I have zero confidence in FO, I don't want to play a bunch of old-ass sims when I can barely tolerate F4AF, and I see Oleg's sims as just side bars I pick up when I want to fly vintage aircraft. Even if Fighter Ops was out, I don't want a one-sided sim where I go out in my F-15C and destroy swarms of sterile, nameless MiGs. The BEST thing that can happen to a sim is having detailed and accurate player-flyable aircraft on two potentially enemy sides. Even if you discount multiplayer where this type of thing is a no-brainer, this still greatly enhances single player. Eagle Dynamics, to my knowledge, is the ONLY developer even doing anything concerning detailed Russian equipment.

 

Every time we hear an announcement about CP and such, I can't help but feel like this is slipping a tiny bit further away. :( If I ever won the lottery, I'd donate money to Eagle Dynamics, no joke. :D

Edited October 28, 2008 by RedTiger

[Grinix]

Where is everyone getting the whole "limited installs on the cd" from? because i havent seen ED say that. :disgust:

[Slayer]

Another thing that increases sales is advertising and the product must appeal to the consumer in other words don't expect too many sales of Black Shark in the west but if it were a western aircraft + advertising = lots of sales.

 

Id disagree with that, lots of simers like Soviet aircraft. Look at the success of IL-2, SU-27, LOMAC etc. Tell me any sim pilot that looks at the pic of a KA-50 and doesnt say to themselves "Hell ya I wanna fly that"