F-15E WIP Update Discussion

[JB3DG]

6 hours ago, Letusg345 said:

I realize I thought you were responding to someone else, but the same still applies. Fromthedeep said

 

And you said

I still stand by what I said about being able to do everything from the front seat, and how discussions should and shouldn't look like. Did you think he said that the WSO wouldn't be able to release weapons? If so, you would be right, the WSO can do all of those things. But I don't think that was what he was getting at. 

So long as the TGP is turned on with the switch in the rear cockpit, along with the countermeasures controls, the upfront HOTAS is completely capable of doing everything the rear does with the A-G radar, the TGP, the A-A radar, individual weapon sensors (ie GBU-15/AGM-130/AGM-65), etc.

[Letusg345]

2 minutes ago, JB3DG said:

So long as the TGP is turned on with the switch in the rear cockpit, along with the countermeasures controls, the upfront HOTAS is completely capable of doing everything the rear does with the A-G radar, the TGP, the A-A radar, individual weapon sensors (ie GBU-15/AGM-130/AGM-65), etc.

Good to know

[YoYo]

8 hours ago, Fromthedeep said:

That's exactly how the airplane works. You do not need to go back and forth between the seats to conduct an attack. That's categorically false. While in the real aircraft, the crew does in fact have to work together do successfully conduct such an attack, there's also plenty of things that you've probably never heard about in your life that real aircrew have to do and we can still easily forget about them in DCS and still be very effective in game.

Complete nonsense. That's why I'm writing, also, so that you're not smarter than MCDD/Boeing engineers if you say that WSO is unnecessary. This is absolutely not right. WSO (even AI) is as necessary here as the pilot. That's what a two-man crew is here for, to distribute tasks in Strike Eagle. If one of the crew members were to die, the mission would be aborted immediately and the attack would not be launched. That's what the division into pilot and WSO is for. Just because a pilot gets some functionality from the back seat doesn't mean he can fly without the WSO and vice versa. It should also be noted that the WSO has much more information about the strike attack being performed and is not distracted by other factors (also he runs navigation or radio correspondence). You'll get Mudhen's crew memories with the module, so I think it's worth checking out. That's not how the plane works as you write, and even more so the crew. Tasks are carefully assigned and while the pilot goes about his business, the WSO does his thing, both of them simultaneously. What does it mean? This means one thing, the lack of WSO as AI even at the release stage of EA is an issue, WSO its a very important part of system of "E", because the captain here directs the actions of the crew and gives the appropriate orders and this part of the simulation will not be (even partially), anyway, there is a separate topic about WSO here and I recommend you to look there. In the F-14 or F-4, the topic is even more sensitive, because the cockpits also differ in functionality, but the roles and division are the same. What you write is wrong because in real life the F-15E pilot does not deal with the A2G armament, but only orders in such a case. So AI WSO should be at the beginning even to a limited extent, but it should and that's why the person previously wrote about jumping between the seats to simulate it, because the AI here will not be like we have in addons like F-14, F-4, AH-64 or Mi-24 DCS modules.

[AhSoul]

I think the point is that you *CAN* solo it, but no it's not how it would happen IRL and no it won't be as effective as having a crew. Distributing tasks is always going to be better e.g. the WSO working on the radar maps to identify the target while the pilot has the radar back in A/A mode.

[falcon_120]

I think the point is that you *CAN* solo it, but no it's not how it would happen IRL and no it won't be as effective as having a crew. Distributing tasks is always going to be better e.g. the WSO working on the radar maps to identify the target while the pilot has the radar back in A/A mode.

this

You Can, no one said is the efficient way of doing it versus 2 man crew.

You can drive a rally car fine with one person, you just can't do it fast enough to win a rally without your copilot calling you the directions of the next turn and how sharp it is....

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[YoYo]

15 minutes ago, AhSoul said:

I think the point is that you *CAN* solo it, but no it's not how it would happen IRL and no it won't be as effective as having a crew. Distributing tasks is always going to be better e.g. the WSO working on the radar maps to identify the target while the pilot has the radar back in A/A mode.

Correct, "can" is magical word but not "how the airplane works".

[Tenkom]

5 hours ago, falcon_120 said:

this

You Can, no one said is the efficient way of doing it versus 2 man crew.

You can drive a rally car fine with one person, you just can't do it fast enough to win a rally without your copilot calling you the directions of the next turn and how sharp it is....

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk
 

Maybe a better question then is how would solo flight in the F15E compare to flying the viper or the hornet.
Is there something about the F15 that would make it less effective than those planes without the WSO. They have, roughly, the same sensors for combat use so unless the machine - human interface in the F15 is worse then it should be no worse than them albeit less effective than it could be with a WSO?

Or am I missing something?

[Coole28]

1 hour ago, Tenkom said:

Maybe a better question then is how would solo flight in the F15E compare to flying the viper or the hornet.

If you are running the same missions/tasks with the same tactics as you would in an F-16 or F/A-18, solo flight should be about the same.  We’ve already seen a demonstration of this by Notso on one of the tutorials (I think it’s the NAVFLIR video, could be mistaken) doing a successful night time laser guided bombing run from take-off to landing essentially all from the front seat.  The difficulty and amount of user input seemed to be roughly on par with other single seat jets in DCS.

[BIGNEWY]

Removed off topic arguing. 

Please note, people will have opinions in the thread that are not necessarily correct, but even if you dont agree please treat each other with respect. 

thank you 

[bfr]

4 hours ago, Coole28 said:

If you are running the same missions/tasks with the same tactics as you would in an F-16 or F/A-18, solo flight should be about the same.  We’ve already seen a demonstration of this by Notso on one of the tutorials (I think it’s the NAVFLIR video, could be mistaken) doing a successful night time laser guided bombing run from take-off to landing essentially all from the front seat.  The difficulty and amount of user input seemed to be roughly on par with other single seat jets in DCS.

Undoubtedly 2 heads would be better than 1, although even with an AI back seater (as and when one comes) I expect its still going to require a fair amount of work on the human pilot's part to get things 'just so' unless they make a major step change above what we've seen in other modules. And yes, i've seen the video you mention (yes it is the NAVFLIR demo) and nothing looks any more daunting than flying the Viper or Hornet for a comparable scenario.

[Phantom88]

 

[Eviscerador]

21 hours ago, Tenkom said:

Maybe a better question then is how would solo flight in the F15E compare to flying the viper or the hornet.
Is there something about the F15 that would make it less effective than those planes without the WSO. They have, roughly, the same sensors for combat use so unless the machine - human interface in the F15 is worse then it should be no worse than them albeit less effective than it could be with a WSO?

Or am I missing something?

I think the main difference is the kind of mission. If you are doing tank plinking from 30k feet, more or less it is the same idea and probably the work load is similar.

The point is that the SE was designed to be an interdictor, flying fast and low over enemy territory and being able to locate their targets with radar in IFR conditions, strike and come back in one piece, maybe shooting down enemy interceptors in case of need.

As you can imagine, doing that kind of night flying at high speed and low altitude leaves very little for the pilot to check the INS, map the target, set the offsets, prepare the ordenance, check the countermeasures etc... he is fully concentrated in keeping the plane at the designed altitude, watching the NAVFLIR, following the TFR commands and keeping the speed in check to comply with the TOT. There is where the WSO is important so they can do all that target stuff. The pilot will just follow the ASL and pickle.

[Tenkom]

1 hour ago, Eviscerador said:

I think the main difference is the kind of mission. If you are doing tank plinking from 30k feet, more or less it is the same idea and probably the work load is similar.

The point is that the SE was designed to be an interdictor, flying fast and low over enemy territory and being able to locate their targets with radar in IFR conditions, strike and come back in one piece, maybe shooting down enemy interceptors in case of need.

As you can imagine, doing that kind of night flying at high speed and low altitude leaves very little for the pilot to check the INS, map the target, set the offsets, prepare the ordenance, check the countermeasures etc... he is fully concentrated in keeping the plane at the designed altitude, watching the NAVFLIR, following the TFR commands and keeping the speed in check to comply with the TOT. There is where the WSO is important so they can do all that target stuff. The pilot will just follow the ASL and pickle.

Although in this sense because you have the NAVFLIR and TFR which will take some load of the pilot it will be easier to operate compared to the viper and hornet under these conditions.

From what I've gathered looking at videos, much is from Starbaby, the plane was mostly used for precision bombing from high altitude. That's what I do for the most part in DCS also so it works for me. I hate jester in the F14 and that is why I fly that module very little. I need to be able to fly solo at least as effectively as I can in the viper/hornet. It sounds like I will be able to do that in the Strike Eagle.

[ironhard]

8 minutes ago, Tenkom said:

From what I've gathered looking at videos, much is from Starbaby, the plane was mostly used for precision bombing from high altitude.

According to the books Tornado: In the eye of the storm and Strike Eagle: Flying the F-15E in the Gulf War, both planes were designed to delivery ammunition by flying very low and very fast through highly defended airspace. The Gulf War apparently changed that because of the extreme density of mk1 eyeball AAA versus the efficiency of modern Eletronic Warfare and SEAD/DEAD warfare, meaning that it was preferable to fly at medium altitudes an deal with SAMs than flying low and dealing with AAA barrages.

BTW, both were meant to fly with TFR.

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by ironhard

[Eviscerador]

4 hours ago, Tenkom said:

Although in this sense because you have the NAVFLIR and TFR which will take some load of the pilot it will be easier to operate compared to the viper and hornet under these conditions.

From what I've gathered looking at videos, much is from Starbaby, the plane was mostly used for precision bombing from high altitude. That's what I do for the most part in DCS also so it works for me. I hate jester in the F14 and that is why I fly that module very little. I need to be able to fly solo at least as effectively as I can in the viper/hornet. It sounds like I will be able to do that in the Strike Eagle.

You CAN do it alone. I've done my fair share of low level interdiction with the harrier in bad weather and night. I also had my share of litobraking because of being head down at 200 ft and 450 kn though...

2 is better, but you can do it alone.

High altitude bombing was used when the SAM threat was mostly degraded and it was better to face a sam launch than a lot of AA at low level. 

[falcon_120]

Maybe a better question then is how would solo flight in the F15E compare to flying the viper or the hornet.
Is there something about the F15 that would make it less effective than those planes without the WSO. They have, roughly, the same sensors for combat use so unless the machine - human interface in the F15 is worse then it should be no worse than them albeit less effective than it could be with a WSO?
Or am I missing something?

As people correctly pointed out, it depends on the mission, A2A radar management, flir management, and dropping precise munition like jdam and lgb will virtually make no difference, you would do it in a SE the same or similar way to a viper/hornet, so it could be done by 1 pilot.

The moment you need to manage the A2G HRM of the plane, you need a dedicated operator to handle that, it's too complex to allow enough remaining time to concentrate for real flying and combat. So in essence, true low level deep strike pre-gps era type of mission, indeed require a WSO. Also a WSO will always be better to help with the SA in any type of mission.

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[YoYo]

(btw. Nice but they should to know what anti aliasing does from years. )

Edited April 19, 2023 by YoYo

[Phantom88]

[sirrah]

You guys!

[JumpinK]

[YoYo]

Edited April 20, 2023 by YoYo

[Phantom88]

 

[Ignition]

14 hours ago, Phantom88 said:

 

I hope not all liveries have some albino part. Altohugh some F-15E have one part they are scarce. Most of the F-15E are equally painted.

It's a good addition though.

[Eviscerador]

10 hours ago, Ignition said:

I hope not all liveries have some albino part. Altohugh some F-15E have one part they are scarce. Most of the F-15E are equally painted.

It's a good addition though.

IIRC they said in their Discord that just one livery will have the option to include albino parts and you can fiddle with the lua in question to put one or the other. I think at least the aerobrake, flaps, ailerons, rudders and some panels will be available for changing colour.

[Phantom88]