yes So could we get a refund?

[Nevyn]

1 hour ago, Seabiscuit1985 said:

I'm super understanding and forgiving to delays after what happened with 2077. 

 

^^This^^

[LooseSeal]

The gist of this thread appears to be - man freely and willingly purchases Early Access product on pre-order then proceeds to very irrationally become angry about his own purchase.

I'm not sure much more needs to be said?

[BIGNEWY]

Pre-order and early access make these projects happen, without it it would not be possible to bring these modules to you. 

Please remember pre-order gives you a massive 30% discount
Early access a 20% discount 
The discount is there to thank you for trusting us with this module development, your patience is appreciated. 

If pre-order or early access is not your thing please do not use it, you will still be supporting us when you decide to purchase. 

For those of you who understand the complexity of creating modules and have the patience to give us the time we need to bring one of the best modules ever seen in DCS, thank you, truly, without your support it would not be possible. 

 

Thank you
The Eagle Dynamics Team

[Rotorhead]

2 minutes ago, Dannyvandelft said:

If I was ED, I wouldn't announce the next module, I'd just have it developed, and release it for full price only. No pre-order discount, no early access discount, nothing. Just, here it is. Out of the blue. Want it? $80.
 

And I would be all for it.

[Eugel]

9 minutes ago, Dannyvandelft said:

If I was ED, I wouldn't announce the next module, I'd just have it developed, and release it for full price only. No pre-order discount, no early access discount, nothing. Just, here it is. Out of the blue. Want it? $80.
 

But then, some people would complain that they are not communicating what they are working on ...

As you said: They can´t win.

[Dannyvandelft]

And I would be all for it.

Then don't buy it till it's released. Easy enough.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

But then, some people would complain that they are not communicating what they are working on ...
As you said: They can´t win.

Yup. Sad to see adults act that way about a game.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[av8orDave]

I have to say, I get it… it’s a minor thing to delay a video game in the grand scheme. However, their dates weren’t, and usually aren’t “vague.” The pre-order video closed with a black screen with a giant “2021” image. In Dec, they unambiguously said “late January”. 
 

Along with this, the pre-order videos made the product look to be in a very advanced state. The idea that they hadn’t even got as far as doing a cold start procedure, worked on the hold modes, etc really wasn’t disclosed. I’d also note that until yesterday, the community managers were basically saying “everything is good for January unless we tell you otherwise” only for ED to deliver the third or fourth delay.
 

Clearly both sides are right… it isn’t a big deal that it is delayed, and you can’t blame people for being frustrated that the product that they pre-ordered with a delivery date of 2021 isn’t even close. 

[Jarlerus]

Some people need to understand that it's their choice:
If you don't want to participate in EA stuff - DON'T! Wait for the full release. It WILL be available to you.
Christ. Learn already.

[Rotorhead]

37 minutes ago, davidrbarnette said:

I have to say, I get it… it’s a minor thing to delay a video game in the grand scheme. However, their dates weren’t, and usually aren’t “vague.” The pre-order video closed with a black screen with a giant “2021” image. In Dec, they unambiguously said “late January”. 
 

Along with this, the pre-order videos made the product look to be in a very advanced state. The idea that they hadn’t even got as far as doing a cold start procedure, worked on the hold modes, etc really wasn’t disclosed. I’d also note that until yesterday, the community managers were basically saying “everything is good for January unless we tell you otherwise” only for ED to deliver the third or fourth delay.
 

Clearly both sides are right… it isn’t a big deal that it is delayed, and you can’t blame people for being frustrated that the product that they pre-ordered with a delivery date of 2021 isn’t even close. 

This.

As I said, I've been around for long enough to know how ED is with dates, and that's why I brushed all the previous delays to the Apache being a mighty complicated piece of machinery. But deliberately keeping the appearance of everything going as planned, while already knowing they will be unable to deliver in the forseeable future strikes me as especially dodgy.

 

53 minutes ago, Dannyvandelft said:

Yup. Sad to see adults act that way about a game.

Maybe not as sad as seeing (adult?) customers defending company's questionable practices... But hey, people putting group identity above their own interests is a known psychological phenomena. One could argue that a few careers have been made because of that.

But anyway, I'd love to see a company I supported for years to do better. Apparently you don't.

 

17 minutes ago, Lurker said:

While I agree with most of what you wrote there, I disagree with this last part. Sorry, but if you are gullible enough to make an uninformed purchasing decision based on a promise, despite oft repeated delays, and despite the often repeated almost meme worthy "everything is subject to change" Eagle Dynamics motto....then that is on YOU and no one else.

Yep, I guess you could say that and probably be right. However, I think there is a certain line beyond which the "everything is subject to change" excuse can't cut it anymore. I'd argue that to me, most previous releases, while sometimes rough and delayed, kinda fell within that line. The Apache does not, by far.

I keep hearing that ED is definitely a honest company, and I am apparently a conspiracy theorist for seeing a deceitful pattern here. So maybe instead of saying it's my fault not being a conspiracy theorist and trusting a completely honest company, maybe ED could admit they went a little too far and offer a gesture of good will.

Or is it "you knew damn well I was a snake?" Who said that, anyway?

 

EDIT: Also, uninformed?

Edited January 22, 2022 by Rotorhead

[Rudel_chw]

2 hours ago, LooseSeal said:

Can't believe I've wasted my time reading and responding to that.

I just read it, but feel exactly the same 

[Furiz]

Some people here,

guys be positive in life it will do you world of good. I see people here talking how they got robbed basically, immoral practices etc... there is nothing bad about pre-purchase, in fact there can be only good things.

You pay in advance for modules and you get 30% discount, and what happens there, you support the project by giving ED money to pay for programmers and staff, you pay in advance but less than later when the module is fully completed its full price then,

cause if you want the module you will have to pay for it either way,

so that money is gonna go to ED anyway then when we look at like that I don't understand why are complaining about 30% discount you are getting?

I can only say thank you ED for the discount. Keep up the good work!

 

And you guys that don't want to pay in advance and get 30% off, pay full price later, its no problem really

Edited January 22, 2022 by Furiz

[Mad_Shell]

@fastfed You can contact the support to ask a refund. That's what I did yesterday and they answered favorably very quickly (in a matter of hours). 

[Beirut]

One advantage to Steam - I got a refund on my pre-order a month ago. 

 

But I didn't cancel because of the wait, but because the videos made it look like the Apache would be too complicated a module for me to enjoy. Bought eh Tomcat with my refund and I'm really enjoying it.

 

But I still might get the Apache, it just looks so freaking cool. Even if I learn barely half the systems it could be a lot of fun to fly.

[Rotorhead]

13 minutes ago, Furiz said:

You pay in advance for modules and you get 30% discount, and what happens there, you support the project by giving ED money to pay for programmers and staff, you pay in advance but less than later when the module is fully completed its full price then,

Thank you for reminding me all the reasons why I've been pre-ordering in the past, and why I pre-ordered now.

Also thank you for considering my arguments as of why I don't... Oh nevermind.

6 minutes ago, Mad_Shell said:

@fastfed You can contact the support to ask a refund. That's what I did yesterday and they answered favorably very quickly (in a matter of hours). 

No way, you can do that? Thank you for letting us know, will look into it!

 

[av8orDave]

I guess the point I see so many people seemingly miss in this community is:

The flight sim world is a pretty small group of folks who are way, way passionate about the hobby. If you have a practice that on a regular basis pisses off a segment of the community, you probably should re-evaluate that practice. ED has missed dates since time began. As producers of quality flight sim content, they are great! As marketers of said product, they’re actually pretty damn bad, especially in the product launch process arena. This one has been especially bad. I don’t think the thing pissing people off is a delay… it’s that the original date advertised appears that it was never possible, the second date now appears it was never possible, and the third date is an ambiguous “Q1, maybe.” The fact that a few days before the latest delay the message being sent was “still January until told otherwise” rather than “we don’t even have a working cold start yet” is what irks people.

Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I guess my though is that I’d just like to see ED do a better job with how they manage and communicate product launches to minimize the constant and repetitive dissatisfaction that they subject themselves to.

[Beirut]

2 minutes ago, davidrbarnette said:

I guess the point I see so many people seemingly miss in this community is:

The flight sim world is a pretty small group of folks who are way, way passionate about the hobby. If you have a practice that on a regular basis pisses off a segment of the community, you probably should re-evaluate that practice. ED has missed dates since time began. As producers of quality flight sim content, they are great! As marketers of said product, they’re actually pretty damn bad, especially in the product launch process arena. This one has been especially bad. I don’t think the thing pissing people off is a delay… it’s that the original date advertised appears that it was never possible, the second date now appears it was never possible, and the third date is an ambiguous “Q1, maybe.” The fact that a few days before the latest delay the message being sent was “still January until told otherwise” rather than “we don’t even have a working cold start yet” is what irks people.

Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I guess my though is that I’d just like to see ED do a better job with how they manage and communicate product launches to minimize the constant and repetitive dissatisfaction that they subject themselves to.

 

Honestly, I can be as picky and snarky as the next guy, but that free trial period ED instituted at the start of the pandemic, and now the ongoing free trials, earned ED a veritable ****ton of patience from me. That was such a good move, both as PR and simply as a really cool thing to do.

[BIGNEWY]

Please remember our forum rules when posting, thread cleaned of 1.10 violations and quotes.

--------------------

People who need to contact support can do so, no one is stopping you.  

 

[IkarusC42B Pilot]

13 hours ago, Mr_Blastman said:

You made an adult choice to pre-order and read the disclaimer like the rest of us before pressing buy.  Now you get to continue be an adult and wait patiently like the rest of us.  Better many of the bugs are worked out before release than us to be throwing our equipment at our monitors because we're angry.

 

 

 

[av8orDave]

One other thing… having spent a day or two in marketing/understanding consumer behaviors, a couple honest questions I wonder about:

- how many delays would start to irritate people during a preorder period? Everyone, even those saying “take as much time as you need!”, has a number.

- how long a period of time do most find to be acceptable for a delay/delays? Again, everyone has a number.

That is what I wonder about when I see the “take your time!” posts… are people still saying that at 6 months? A year?

Edited January 22, 2022 by davidrbarnette

[Beirut]

5 minutes ago, davidrbarnette said:

One other thing… having spent a day or two in marketing/understanding consumer behaviors, a couple honest questions I wonder about:

- how many delays would start to irritate people during a preorder period? Everyone, even those saying “take as much time as you need!”, has a number.

- how long a period of time do most find to be acceptable for a delay/delays? Again, everyone has a number.

That is what I wonder about when I see the “take your time!” posts… are people still saying that at 6 months? A year?

 

 

It ends being being taken as a whole in business. People's patience is balanced out with with both an expected end result "this time" and the history of results achieved already.

 

In my work, we have people who wait weeeeeks for us to show up, and when we do show up were pretty much late every time. But we do a good job and we're really friendly with our customers and super easy to deal with. So they keep calling back. People have balanced it out. I think that's what goes on here as well.

[av8orDave]

11 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

It ends being being taken as a whole in business. People's patience is balanced out with with both an expected end result "this time" and the history of results achieved already.

 

In my work, we have people who wait weeeeeks for us to show up, and when we do show up were pretty much late every time. But we do a good job and we're really friendly with our customers and super easy to deal with. So they keep calling back. People have balanced it out. I think that's what goes on here as well.

Makes sense, and I get it, especially if you have good customer service and a good product. Is it fair to assume that those customers aren’t saying “take as much time as you need!” along the way though, especially after they’ve paid? I guess my curiosity is more around the “take as much time as you need!” perspectives, and the “dude, chill, it’s just a small delay!” comments.

First, on the take as much time as you need deal, that comes across to me as a bit strange, as at some point even the most hardcore DCS devotee would say “too much.” Why is it wrong for some folks to say “too much” at three months when others will say “too much” shortly after?

Second, on the chill it’s a small delay thing, the problem with routinely missing dates is that it builds a pattern of not being able to rely on information. How do these folks making these comments know it is just a small delay? It might be, or it might not… the pattern is that the estimates aren’t reliable. 

I will be the first to admit… life is good when these are your biggest problems!

Edited January 22, 2022 by davidrbarnette

[Buschwick]

5 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Pre-order and early access make these projects happen, without it it would not be possible to bring these modules to you. 

That's scary.  I'm all for throwing out a beta so you can get feedback from the masses but that comment sounds like you won't make payroll unless you keep pumping out pre-releases.

5 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Please remember pre-order gives you a massive 30% discount
Early access a 20% discount 
The discount is there to thank you for trusting us with this module development, your patience is appreciated. 

We're talking about like a 8 dollar difference.  C'mon lol massive.  Your inner Billy Mays is showing lol.

People we're trusting you to get this out for the holidays.  End of 2021 is what you implied.  (please no "E in ETA" comments everyone, they knew what they were doing).  But now that trust is broken, especially for the OP.  I have not pre-ordered because I don't trust that you'll deliver this thing even in Q1 2022.  Will I buy it?  Yep.  But I'm not handing you $50+ right now, I'll hand you $60-something when you publish something.  I experienced your SOP with the Falcon.  I watched you go a year and a half with no a-g radar with it while selling new stuff. 

5 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

For those of you who understand the complexity of creating modules and have the patience to give us the time we need to bring one of the best modules ever seen in DCS

The last newsletter you put out was highlighting new 3d modules for a couple bombers and the Viking.  This is what you're showing people after like a month off, while you're sitting on who-knows-how many pre-orders for the Apache and have like 5 high-dollar early access modules that aren't done.   I think that in some part is why people are upset. 

How broken is it still going to be when you fire off another pre-release for something else?

 

[Fastbreak]

34 minutes ago, davidrbarnette said:

One other thing… having spent a day or two in marketing/understanding consumer behaviors, a couple honest questions I wonder about:

- how many delays would start to irritate people during a preorder period? Everyone, even those saying “take as much time as you need!”, has a number.

- how long a period of time do most find to be acceptable for a delay/delays? Again, everyone has a number.

That is what I wonder about when I see the “take your time!” posts… are people still saying that at 6 months? A year?

 

A day or two? Same thoughts on my side - with a day or two in international sales & marketing. 

[BIGNEWY]

As mentioned by the OP a refund is possible, please contact support they will assist you if you require one. 

For those who are being patient and giving us the time we need to bring this great aircraft to you all thank you. We appreciate your support and trust. 

thank you