The Cobra proposal...

[Gianky]

On 3/7/2022 at 3:59 PM, Tank50us said:

What do you guys think? Would you get a Cobra module if it started off at the most bare-bones version? Or would you rather not touch the module unless a specific version is introduced? Comment below.

I'd say that what is going to happen with the F-4 is probably a decent way to implement these airframe that spans decades of service and tens of variants, so as for the Cobra, I'd hope for a first module with an older, Vietnam era, single engined variant and a modern, twin engined one (possibly the -1G and the -1W).

If we're taking into consideration even other, non US western choppers, I'd like to throw into the hat the A-129 Mangusta: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agusta_A129_Mangusta

[FlankerKiller]

41 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Technically no, not really. Mig-15, Mig-21, UH-1H, F-5E, F-4E coming, probably a few others I cant think off top of my head.

Not to be that guy, but. Mig-15. No it was the Mig-17 we faced over Vietnam. Mig-21. Again no. Our Mig-21 is slightly later and had more modern weapons and countermeasures. Its actually a late cold war Fishbed. Same for all the others. They are all post Vietnam upgrades of the Vietnam era aircraft. I as much as anyone want to see DCS Vietnam. It would be completely amazing. and maybe it will happen. But a Vietnam Cobra would be less then useless in the DCS environment we do have. No countermeasures for one, and no anti tank capabilities for another. But one of those 80's models mentioned by NeedsWD40, particularly that USMC AH-1J, would fit right in with everything you mentioned above other then the Mig-15. And I honestly believe if we are going to wish for a Cobra it needs to be one that will sell. And a cold War counterpart the the Hind, one that can hunt other helicopters with sidewinders, and hit back against SAMs with sidearms definitely would. It could so be shoehorned into an Iranian asset as much as the F-14A, F-4E, F-5E can. And since this is a wish list, and since ED dose read it, and since we actually made something happen with the F-4E, I would like to wish for something that they might actually consider making. 

[WinterH]

10 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Technically no, not really. Mig-15, Mig-21, UH-1H, F-5E, F-4E coming, probably a few others I cant think off top of my head.

Only Huey and F-4E are kinda correct though. And they are mostly late war.

MiG-15 is too old, and does differ significantly from MiG-17. Although there is a group currently working on a MiG-17, aiming for a 3rd party dev license.

MiG-21Bis and the F-5E block 3 are both very much later versions with considerably better capability than those served over Vietnam.

MiG-19P is not the right version, but fits well enough arguably.

There will be an F-8J, but that's pretty farish in the future to release.

Many years ago Belsimtek wanted to do AH-1G, and the response from community was quite negative because G is more or less just a Huey but thinner.

E or F for single engine ones, T or W for twin engine ones are the way to go imo.

[Tank50us]

6 hours ago, WinterH said:

Many years ago Belsimtek wanted to do AH-1G, and the response from community was quite negative because G is more or less just a Huey but thinner.

E or F for single engine ones, T or W for twin engine ones are the way to go imo.

well, unfortunately, if the community wants a Cobra fast, they'll have to take the G first, although it will come with the 20mm cannon as an option for the chin gun as well as the 40mm grenade launcher and minigun if it were up to me. Plus they'd still get the gun pods and assorted rocket options as well.

[Rick50]

On 3/10/2022 at 11:22 AM, Gianky said:

If we're taking into consideration even other, non US western choppers, I'd like to throw into the hat the A-129 Mangusta: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agusta_A129_Mangusta

 

Hmm... initially I liked the idea, but then looking at the Wiki, only 60 units made, and only in service in Italy and a handful in Turkey... eh, I'm leaning back toward Cobras that are employed for decades in a great number of nations and have seen action lots of times. 

But big points for a cool and creative suggestion! 

EDIT: ok so it's not actually alone, there's also the TAI/AgustaWestland T129 ATAK variant, which has another 76 units made... but it's still quite limited in users and numbers.

 

Personally I think the decade to represent ought to be part of the decision. The Apache Longbow for the 2000's. So I'm thinking of a TOW capable Cobra from the 1980's ought to be first... at least most of the maps are appropriate already. This would also be appropriate for Korea and Germany maps if any materialize.

Later, if a jungle SEA 'Nam map shows up, then the early "Snake" should seriously be considered!

I mean, I don't wanna poop on the Supers as an idea for DCS, and or the Tiger gunships, but I wonder if with the Longbow, it would be a case of too many "modern/current" AH's ?  

 

And not that I want to derail the topic or anything, but what about smaller AH's, like the OH-6, Hughes 500D Defender with TOW and electroptics, or its more modern "Little Bird" variants? Again, that aircraft spans a very long time, so choosing which variant would be important. Of course, while I like the 500 Defender, the Gazelle anti-tank would be quite similar, and we do expect the MBB Bo-105 which also would have wireguided ATGM's too... soo... I dunno...

[Gianky]

6 hours ago, Rick50 said:

 

Hmm... initially I liked the idea, but then looking at the Wiki, only 60 units made, and only in service in Italy and a handful in Turkey... eh, I'm leaning back toward Cobras that are employed for decades in a great number of nations and have seen action lots of times. 

But big points for a cool and creative suggestion! 

EDIT: ok so it's not actually alone, there's also the TAI/AgustaWestland T129 ATAK variant, which has another 76 units made... but it's still quite limited in users and numbers.

Thanks, it's just that I'm Italian and I want to see more Italian  aircrafts in the simulator!

[upyr1]

On 3/10/2022 at 1:20 PM, FlankerKiller said:

Not to be that guy, but. Mig-15. No it was the Mig-17 we faced over Vietnam. Mig-21. Again no. Our Mig-21 is slightly later and had more modern weapons and countermeasures. Its actually a late cold war Fishbed. Same for all the others. They are all post Vietnam upgrades of the Vietnam era aircraft. I as much as anyone want to see DCS Vietnam. It would be completely amazing. and maybe it will happen. But a Vietnam Cobra would be less then useless in the DCS environment we do have. No countermeasures for one, and no anti tank capabilities for another. But one of those 80's models mentioned by NeedsWD40, particularly that USMC AH-1J, would fit right in with everything you mentioned above other then the Mig-15. And I honestly believe if we are going to wish for a Cobra it needs to be one that will sell. And a cold War counterpart the the Hind, one that can hunt other helicopters with sidewinders, and hit back against SAMs with sidearms definitely would. It could so be shoehorned into an Iranian asset as much as the F-14A, F-4E, F-5E can. And since this is a wish list, and since ED dose read it, and since we actually made something happen with the F-4E, I would like to wish for something that they might actually consider making. 

Actually some Vietnam era Cobras carried TOW missiles, not a lot but they were used in 1972 to counter the Easter Offensive.

We are getting a two fer pack with the F-4E one of wich is going to be from this era as well.

[Ash Lynx]

I think having a Vietnam era Cobra and the most Advanced Cobra possible is the most likely outcome if it were to be developed. ED and 3rd parties don't really do variants unless its either a major difference or very similar so it would be easy to develop. Having the 2 cobra types mentioned would cover mostly everyone's needs mostly. But what I am speculating is the bare minimum that ED or a 3rd party would do.

[Rick50]

14 hours ago, Gianky said:

Thanks, it's just that I'm Italian and I want to see more Italian  aircrafts in the simulator!

No doubt!  

Here's hoping that a Tornado gets made!

[Rick50]

2 hours ago, Ash Lynx said:

I think having a Vietnam era Cobra and the most Advanced Cobra possible is the most likely outcome if it were to be developed. ED and 3rd parties don't really do variants unless its either a major difference or very similar so it would be easy to develop. Having the 2 cobra types mentioned would cover mostly everyone's needs mostly. But what I am speculating is the bare minimum that ED or a 3rd party would do.

 

Ok, but the Vietnam era Cobras were ONLY used by the USA, and the SuperCobra used only by:

USMC,

Islamic Republic of Iran Army Aviation,

Republic of China Army(Taiwan),

Turkish Army

 

By contrast, the 80's TOW Cobras, the ones with flat glass, single engine and 20mm, were exported to a great many nations and saw action all over the planet. There were 1,100 units made:

Bahrain Air Force
 
Japan Ground Self-Defense Force

Royal Jordanian Air Force

Kenya Air Force

Pakistan Army

Philippine Air Force 

South Korea Republic of Korea Army

Royal Thai Army

Turkish Army

Florida Department of Forestry

U.S. Forest Service

Israeli Air Force

Spanish Navy

U.S. Army

Washington State Department of Natural Resources

 

No matter how you look at it, that's a lot of unique users all over the world! 

[Dragon1-1]

The Super Cobra has a fond place in my heart thanks to ArmA2, which was my introduction to the series. Plus, I'd love more USMC hardware. Iran, Turkey and USMC all happen to be very relevant to maps that we have, so on balance, my vote would be for the W or maybe J. 

Our of single engine Cobra operators, none are anywhere near out maps, besides Israel, which mostly had the "skinny Huey" AH-1Gs, and a few Fs, and Jordan, which also used the F. As such, I think that the most sensible choice would be the AH-1F. The "1100 units made" quote is also for the AH-1G, the others were made in much smaller numbers. I think that while the G would be nice for Vietnam-era scenarios, it was mostly an infantry killer, and TBH, it doesn't offer all that much over the Huey that we have (which can also carry miniguns and rockets). Great in Vietnam, but in DCS, of limited utility. If we were to have the single engine Cobra, I'd prefer the F, but it wouldn't be my priority to buy.

[upyr1]

6 hours ago, Ash Lynx said:

I think having a Vietnam era Cobra and the most Advanced Cobra possible is the most likely outcome if it were to be developed. ED and 3rd parties don't really do variants unless its either a major difference or very similar so it would be easy to develop. Having the 2 cobra types mentioned would cover mostly everyone's needs mostly. But what I am speculating is the bare minimum that ED or a 3rd party would do.

I think this would only work if there are two differnt modules, the Huey Cobra and Super Cobra. As they are very different aircraft.

4 hours ago, Rick50 said:

 

Ok, but the Vietnam era Cobras were ONLY used by the USA, and the SuperCobra used only by:

USMC,

Islamic Republic of Iran Army Aviation,

Republic of China Army(Taiwan),

Turkish Army

 

By contrast, the 80's TOW Cobras, the ones with flat glass, single engine and 20mm, were exported to a great many nations and saw action all over the planet. There were 1,100 units made:

Bahrain Air Force
 
Japan Ground Self-Defense Force

Royal Jordanian Air Force

Kenya Air Force

Pakistan Army

Philippine Air Force 

South Korea Republic of Korea Army

Royal Thai Army

Turkish Army

Florida Department of Forestry

U.S. Forest Service

Israeli Air Force

Spanish Navy

U.S. Army

Washington State Department of Natural Resources

 

No matter how you look at it, that's a lot of unique users all over the world! 

A 1980s variant would be great, the next question though is what is the minimum number of variants you would need to cover the Huey's service life?

[Rick50]

5 hours ago, upyr1 said:

I think this would only work if there are two differnt modules, the Huey Cobra and Super Cobra. As they are very different aircraft.

A 1980s variant would be great, the next question though is what is the minimum number of variants you would need to cover the Huey's service life?

 

Well, I think that just as a general observation, there may come a time when there is more product than users who can fly them all regularly. Meaning "oh wow, I already have 20 modules I don't fly more than once a year... do I really need another 7 more modules this year?!?"  I think some people are already at that point. Not everyone, but some. 

So that brings me to a counterpoint: how badly do we "need" every variant? Is this an important goal? Does this goal have a downside to it, namely drawing effort away from other aircraft entirely? 

It's similar to conversations I've had about the F-4 Phantom's many variants, and the B-52 hypothetical module and it's possible variants that people might want.

To answer your question directly, I feel 3 Cobras would be enough, and released in this order: 1980's TOW Cobra I mentioned above, one SuperCobra or twin engine USMC variant, maybe something from the 1991 Gulf War era, but maybe the people want a new Z Viper? And lastly, if/when a Vietnam jungle map is released, then a 1960's Cobra to go with it!

I think subdividing further than that would be a waste of resources that could be better used on other interesting aircraft, such as the EE Lightening, or the Jaguar, the Mirage III, C-130H module with Specter, cargo and KC air tanking variants, maybe a B-52 module... OH-6 or Littlebird or MD-500 Defender, CH or MH-47, UH and MH-60, a full fidellity Super Tucano with designator and all the ord, full fidellity T-72 and BMP-2,... ok I'm starting to ramble, but you get the picture.

Do we need more unique airframes or most of the variants? for me the answer is... depends on the subject and how important it's been, maybe it's important to cover more than one era, but also maybe offering 4 or more variants is greedy and counterproductive?  Remember, since we are talking DCS and not say ARMA-3 or War Thunder, making full fidellity modules even for variants takes a LOT longer than pumping out a whole bunch of nice looking 3D models for "each variant". 

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Rick50

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, Rick50 said:

 

Well, I think that just as a general observation, there may come a time when there is more product than users who can fly them all regularly. Meaning "oh wow, I already have 20 modules I don't fly more than once a year... do I really need another 7 more modules this year?!?"  I think some people are already at that point. Not everyone, but some. 

So that brings me to a counterpoint: how badly do we "need" every variant? Is this an important goal? Does this goal have a downside to it, namely drawing effort away from other aircraft entirely? 

It's similar to conversations I've had about the F-4 Phantom's many variants, and the B-52 hypothetical module and it's possible variants that people might want.

To answer your question directly, I feel 3 Cobras would be enough, and released in this order: 1980's TOW Cobra I mentioned above, one SuperCobra or twin engine USMC variant, maybe something from the 1991 Gulf War era, but maybe the people want a new Z Viper? And lastly, if/when a Vietnam jungle map is released, then a 1960's Cobra to go with it!

I think subdividing further than that would be a waste of resources that could be better used on other interesting aircraft, such as the EE Lightening, or the Jaguar, the Mirage III, C-130H module with Specter, cargo and KC air tanking variants, maybe a B-52 module... OH-6 or Littlebird or MD-500 Defender, CH or MH-47, UH and MH-60, a full fidellity Super Tucano with designator and all the ord, full fidellity T-72 and BMP-2,... ok I'm starting to ramble, but you get the picture.

Do we need more unique airframes or most of the variants? for me the answer is... depends on the subject and how important it's been, maybe it's important to cover more than one era, but also maybe offering 4 or more variants is greedy and counterproductive?  Remember, since we are talking DCS and not say ARMA-3 or War Thunder, making full fidellity modules even for variants takes a LOT longer than pumping out a whole bunch of nice looking 3D models for "each variant". 

 

 

That is why I suggested multiple time Eagle should introduce variant pricing I'd love to have a lot of variants in a single module but I understand that might not be practical.

[SkateZilla]

On 3/12/2022 at 11:40 AM, Rick50 said:

 

Ok, but the Vietnam era Cobras were ONLY used by the USA, and the SuperCobra used only by:

USMC,

Islamic Republic of Iran Army Aviation,

Republic of China Army(Taiwan),

Turkish Army

 

By contrast, the 80's TOW Cobras, the ones with flat glass, single engine and 20mm, were exported to a great many nations and saw action all over the planet. There were 1,100 units made:

Bahrain Air Force
 
Japan Ground Self-Defense Force

Royal Jordanian Air Force

Kenya Air Force

Pakistan Army

Philippine Air Force 

South Korea Republic of Korea Army

Royal Thai Army

Turkish Army

Florida Department of Forestry

U.S. Forest Service

Israeli Air Force

Spanish Navy

U.S. Army

Washington State Department of Natural Resources

 

No matter how you look at it, that's a lot of unique users all over the world! 

That would be the -F,

 

[fargo007]

On 3/11/2022 at 6:31 AM, ПТНПНХ said:

AH-1W or Z would de cool indeed. You could even operate them from NAVY ships.

 

Whiskey is the right answer. Only major functional difference is that the W needs the front seater to launch HF's, where the Z can do so from either seat. 

I don't think a legacy army cobra wouldn't be able to generate enough buzz to make it worth ED's while.  A Whiskey would, and it's mostly out of service so much more likely to get cooperation.

[streakeagle]

The original AH-1G was extremely similar to the UH-1. For some that is a negative thing and makes it a bad choice. But for me, I am a fan of the Vietnam Nam war era. I want both a UH-1B/C gunship and an AH-1G. The benefit of being so similar to the UH-1 is a lot of the work is already done aside from the 3d model, just a matter of tuning a few variations to comply with the design differences. I like the progression of the original post, but I would rather see the Vietnam era AH-1J after the AH-1G. After the Vietnam era, I want the late 1970s/early 1980s TOW cobras. My preferences aside, I think the AH-1W is actually the best variant for the DCS environment since it favors 90s era aircraft. But it is the last variant I would worry about since the AH-64 is already here. I would buy an AH-1Z, but it doesn't really fit with any of the other generations of DCS aircraft. The AH-1W is already beyond what I would actually want to fly. If I could have only one, I would want the AH-1G and would settle for the AH-1J.

[ReRa]

I've got only F-16 but going to buy Cobra if developed.  

Version , more like twin engine so far away from Vietnam...and going too buy a LHA-? if released too.

And i think about developers and money , workers... is there any crowd money collect action for specific modules? I think it will speedup projects. Its basic of Capitalism , you wont you pay you got ...i srsl need. ..and going too pay a module price even after supporting a crowd collect project.

And saying hello i think its my first post here.

[dawgie79]

I rather would like a single seater to be honest. 

[bies]

Cobra would be great, especially some earlier variant like AH-1G from Vietnam/mid Cold War or AH-1W from 1970s/80s with TOW missiles.

When in a mood to fly extremally complex and sophisticated one i would fly Apache D, when i would prefer to fly simpler aircraft and enjoy just manual flying, looking, aiming, shooting without the need to remember long complicated procedures i would fly Cold War Cobra. AH-1Z would be both classified and too similar to AH64D.

Edited August 15, 2022 by bies

[WinterH]

80s maybe up to early 90s is the ideal fit to go with. Goes hand in hand with our Hind, and gives it a blufor counterpart.

Don't know whether I prefer it to be a F or W, would be happy with both, would even eventually get both if existed as separate.

Single engine Cobra has the most commonality with the Huey we have, thus, if ED develops it, there'd be a base to go from probably. It is also the most commonly operated type worldwide with involvement in many conflicts. In the US service, Desert Storm was its last operational use afaik. Off the top of my head, some countries operates/operated it or close enough variants include Israel, Japan, Turkey, Iran, all of which can be relevant to at least one or more map we have. Late 80s or 90s, an upgrade gave them C NITE upgrade, enabling the telescopic sight to work in night  and low light conditions.

Twin engine W was operated by fewer counties, but with Taiwan, Turkey, and in the shape of older J variant the Iran did/does operate it anyway. It would give DCS a marines helo, to operate nicely from Tarawa alongside Harriers for example. It also has a slightly larger arsenal to choose from: Zunis in addition to Hydras for example. Also, I think, Sidewinders and Sidearms. Don't know if they got night capability in that time frame, but I personally don't think it's necessary anyway. We have Apache for that.

A late W or Z would be a huge shame imo. We already have Longbow Apache. These older Cobras would be a different experience, unlike those later Cobras, and they would flesh out the Cold War, best option for DCS to flesh out really. And, as said above, would go perfectly as a counterpart to Hind.

[Swift.]

On 3/14/2022 at 12:08 AM, fargo007 said:

 

Whiskey is the right answer. Only major functional difference is that the W needs the front seater to launch HF's, where the Z can do so from either seat. 

I don't think a legacy army cobra wouldn't be able to generate enough buzz to make it worth ED's while.  A Whiskey would, and it's mostly out of service so much more likely to get cooperation.

I mean thats not the only functional difference. Having that new rotor system significantly changes the handling characteristics. Also you know the whole completely different avionics suite thing.

A Whisky would be a lot easier, but a Zulu is definitely possible in terms of info (perhaps not in terms of licensing), and frankly if we got a W then every time I stepped to one Id just wish it was a Z.

[fargo007]

6 hours ago, Swift. said:

I mean thats not the only functional difference. Having that new rotor system significantly changes the handling characteristics. Also you know the whole completely different avionics suite thing.

A Whisky would be a lot easier, but a Zulu is definitely possible in terms of info (perhaps not in terms of licensing), and frankly if we got a W then every time I stepped to one Id just wish it was a Z.

I think it's impossible to get the Z licensed by Bell USA and made into a DCS module while the helicopter is in active US service. We can dream though. 

 

[Evoman]

From what I gathered the AH-1G was more adapt to handle Vietnam missions than the later versions because of their armament. The mini guns were used to clear out or prep LZ zones for the Hueys. So regardless of the order of other variants the AH-1G will eventually have to be done to meet the Vietnam requirements for when ever a Vietnam map is done.

Here is an interesting comment from a Vietnam vet I read from the below video.

"The Cobras were “working out”. Damn, been a while since I heard that term! My entire platoon was forced into a defensive circle by a 360 degree assault on the hill we were “ camping” on. Everyone popped smoke, tossed them out a few yards. The smoke rose thru the trees and made a ring. The Cobras shot the #### out of everything outside the ring. I could see the mini gun rounds ripping the trees and ground 10 feet in front of me, did I mention I was dumbstruck by the noise, the fire, those birds diving on the gun run then pulling out right over my head Not one Grunt, not one would say a word to disparage that noble beast. The men who flew those missions were like super man. Thanks my friends for pulling my chest nuts out of the fire more than once."

 

 

 

 

[Rick50]

On 8/14/2022 at 2:33 PM, fargo007 said:

I think it's impossible to get the Z licensed by Bell USA and made into a DCS module while the helicopter is in active US service. We can dream though. 

 

 

Maybe, maybe not. Bell has a say, so too do the Marines and Pentagon. All three could say yes, but any might say no. If there is enough declas documentation to do full fidelity, and seems doable to a dev team, then they need to ask... its either many yesses, or one "no". 

 

Remember, Apache Longbow, Viper, Hog C, and Legacy Bug are in US current use and frontline tip of spear for many nations still, and those not only got permission, but are solid modules in DCS, so I'm not sure why you think it would be "impossible". Bell might have given thumbs up for the Huey, not sure if Poly got official permission for thr Kiowa Warrior or not... sure, the Z is newer and fancier, but anyway. 

I agree it could be blocked, I'm just saying i don't think its guaranteed.