Force Trim

[Supmua]

Right now I've settled for central position cyclic trim and no rudder trim (no springs setting).  This way I find that I can keep hovering forever and exercise my thigh muscles at the same time.  Whatever works for you I guess.

[JTF-191 Scooter]

6 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

I think one of the mistakes I made in the beginning was when on a large defection, I would trim, return to centre and then feel like I needed to continue to make that large deflection, start to go wrong, trim, make another large deflection to correct, trim. Therefore trimming further and further away from what I wanted. Once trimmed and centered it's then just minor controls to maintain. 

Great advice!

[dburne]

1 minute ago, Supmua said:

Right now I've settled for central position cyclic trim and no rudder trim (no springs setting).  This way I find that I can keep hovering forever and exercise my thigh muscles at the same time.  Whatever works for you I guess.

 

Do you not find you need to hold a little left rudder for forward flight? Depending on speed, seems slower requires more left rudder.

[JTF-191 Scooter]

9 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

I think one of the mistakes I made in the beginning was when on a large defection, I would trim, return to centre and then feel like I needed to continue to make that large deflection, start to go wrong, trim, make another large deflection to correct, trim. Therefore trimming further and further away from what I wanted. Once trimmed and centered it's then just minor controls to maintain. 

Also, my typical flying is rolled left about 10 degrees and flying at about 20 degrees yaw to the left just to go in a straight line. My flight path indicator is always way to the right. All controls are calibrated. I'll figure that one out soon hopefully.

[Hoirtel]

2 minutes ago, JTF-191 Scooter said:

Also, my typical flying is rolled left about 10 degrees and flying at about 20 degrees yaw to the left just to go in a straight line. My flight path indicator is always way to the right. All controls are calibrated. I'll figure that one out soon hopefully.

Casmo mentions this in one of his videos. This is accurate to the aerodynamics of a Helo. Probably to do with the torque generated and other stuff. Worth a look. 

[Rongor]

14 minutes ago, dburne said:

Do you not find you need to hold a little left rudder for forward flight? Depending on speed, seems slower requires more left rudder.

The faster you go, the more wind vane effect will support you countering the main rotor torque. So you'll need more rudder, the slower you go.

You will barely find a trim position not needing rudder inputs after a few seconds, so (while I do trim the rudder too) I can understand people simply not trimming it as they will have to give rudder input aynway and maybe you don't want to trimm all the time.

 

If the necessary pedal work doesn't strain your feet and right hand and arm too much, you can fly this helo very well without using the trim at all.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

Casmo mentions this in one of his videos. This is accurate to the aerodynamics of a Helo. Probably to do with the torque generated and other stuff. Worth a look. 

No, a constant yaw at about 20 degrees to the left just to go in a straight line is certainly not connected to a helo's aerodynamics and not needed to counter torque. 20° yaw offset may be necessary to achieve a desired ground track during a storm. In any other case the dude at the controls should take flying lessons.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Rongor

[Hiob]

7 minutes ago, JTF-191 Scooter said:

Also, my typical flying is rolled left about 10 degrees and flying at about 20 degrees yaw to the left just to go in a straight line. My flight path indicator is always way to the right. All controls are calibrated. I'll figure that one out soon hopefully.

That's the difference between Nose-To-Tail trimm (ball is left of center) and aerodynamic trimm (ball is centered, flightpath marker is off to the right).

Why the crabbing of the latter gives better flight economics and higher speeds that the first on is a little over my head still, though. Perhaps the weather vane effect counters the torque and frees power of the engine. No Idea.

[Hoirtel]

4 minutes ago, Rongor said:

No, a constant yaw at about 20 degrees to the left just to go in a straight line is certainly not connected to a helo's aerodynamics and not needed to counter torque. 20° yaw offset may be necessary to achieve a desired heading in a storm or the dude at the controls should take flying lessons.

 

Well I'm no expert so can't say. I do remember both wags and casmo mentioning aerodynamic trim and nose/tail trim being different. Seems to be what is described. 

[Fakum]

33 minutes ago, dburne said:

Personally I think just the fact that this thread has gotten so much attention and feedback on the troubles with using the force trim in the Apache, should point to the fact that something needs to be tweaked on it by ED.

A FREAKIN MEN!

[fargo007]

I've got crosswinds pedals with a hydraulic buffer on them.  They stay where they are put with my feet off.

Notionally I should be using the "PEDALS WITHOUT SPRINGS OR FFB".   

The problem I'm having is that with that setting, the actual RESPONSE of the pedals is uber-sensitive, and it seems no amount of curve or desaturization can make it work the same smooth operation of the peds when on the "FFB FRIENDLY" setting, which gives me the pedals response I want, but of course results in horrible yaw leaps whenever I trim the stick.

If anyone has a solution for this or is equally affected, I would love to hear it. 

Right now I have to use the "FFB FRIENDLY" option, and be extraordinarily mindful to snap my feel to pedal center every single time I hit the trim.

It's not the way I want to fly at all. But the aggressive L/R oscillation that occurs when I'm in the pedals mode I SHOULD be in is even less workable.  

TL;DR - The sensitivity and response of the pedals is not the same between the three modes.

[Rongor]

Just now, Hiob said:

That's the difference between Nose-To-Tail trimm (ball is left of center) and aerodynamic trimm (ball is centered, flightpath marker is off to the right).

Why the crabbing of the latter gives better flight economics and higher speeds that the first on is a little over my head still, though. Perhaps the weather vane effect counters the torque and frees power of the engine. No Idea.

No it's not, you are mixing up five different things.

1. This thread is addressing Force trim in it's title. This is the mechanic of easing your controls to some kind of centered/force-balanced state

2. Depending on the wind situation, you generall may want to steer in a way to either achieve an intended ground track (nose off of desired track to achieve a speed vector which combined with the wind vector lets you arrive at a destination on a straight line) or to keep a specific heading (nose pointing towards a target, launch rockets in longitudinal direction)

3. The trim ball has nothing to do with force trim. The force trim release's only purpose is to set your current steering inputs as the new 'center' to ease your control inputs.

4. whenever the trim ball is out of the center (disregard slow speeds close to hover, the ball isn't made for that and can be ignored in these occasions) you are moving through the air mass in a way that applies more vane effect on the one side of the helo than on the other. So you use pedal, this has nothing to do with point #2

5. yes, the wind vane effect of *forward speed*  does support counter torque.

1 minute ago, Hoirtel said:

Well I'm no expert so can't say. I do remember both wags and casmo mentioning aerodynamic trim and nose/tail trim being different. Seems to be what is described. 

No it doesn't seem to be what is described. Flying with 20° yaw and 10° roll constantly has nothing to do with aerodynamic trim nor with necessary countertorque. Flying with 20° offset is ridiculously beyond necessary values.

[Hoirtel]

6 minutes ago, Rongor said:

No it's not, you are mixing up five different things.

1. This thread is addressing Force trim in it's title. This is the mechanic of easing your controls to some kind of centered/force-balanced state

2. Depending on the wind situation, you generall may want to steer in a way to either achieve an intended ground track (nose off of desired track to achieve a speed vector which combined with the wind vector lets you arrive at a destination on a straight line) or to keep a specific heading (nose pointing towards a target, launch rockets in longitudinal direction)

3. The trim ball has nothing to do with force trim. The force trim release's only purpose is to set your current steering inputs as the new 'center' to ease your control inputs.

4. whenever the trim ball is out of the center (disregard slow speeds close to hover, the ball isn't made for that and can be ignored in these occasions) you are moving through the air mass in a way that applies more vane effect on the one side of the helo than on the other. So you use pedal, this has nothing to do with point #2

5. yes, the wind vane effect of *forward speed*  does support counter torque.

No it doesn't seem to be what is described. Flying with 20° yaw and 10° roll constantly has nothing to do with aerodynamic trim nor with necessary countertorque. Flying with 20° offset is ridiculously beyond necessary values.

Lol. I know what the thread is for I've been writing in it for two days. I'm done now. 

[Rongor]

1 hour ago, JTF-191 Scooter said:

Also, my typical flying is rolled left about 10 degrees and flying at about 20 degrees yaw to the left just to go in a straight line. My flight path indicator is always way to the right. All controls are calibrated. I'll figure that one out soon hopefully.

If you fly that way, then you have to learn how to fly a helo from zero.

Simply apply right pedal gradually until your nose points somewhat in the direction of travel. Don't accept the roll attitude either.

Also this is has nothing to with force trim. It's just bad flying.

[Rongor]

39 minutes ago, Hoirtel said:

Lol. I know what the thread is for I've been writing in it for two days. I'm done now. 

Maybe you should have stopped way earlier. This thread is overloaded with false assumptions and misconceptions inducing ever more confusion.

[Fakum]

AMEN!

 

[Hoirtel]

24 minutes ago, Rongor said:

Maybe you should have stopped way earlier. This thread is overloaded with false assumptions and misconceptions inducing ever more confusion.

Argeed. I was trying to share my own discovery that the force trim works well and the mistakes I made thinking it was broken or difficult. It's gone on a tangent now. 

[Supmua]

1 hour ago, dburne said:

 

Do you not find you need to hold a little left rudder for forward flight? Depending on speed, seems slower requires more left rudder.

Right now if I want to do a perfect hovering or plop down at the exact spot and at heading that I want, manual control is the best option for me. May be I’ll learn to trim better but the current options just don’t seem to work well with my brain, especially the rudder part. 

[rayrayblues]

4 hours ago, Fakum said:

I hear what your saying, but its not all about just trying to come in for a casual landing or smoothing out to a hover. I don't see much discussion about instances when your moving along fast and need to make quick and aggressive maneuvers. I have tried to make aggressive moves while the stick is set pretty far forward in trim because your cruising along at 125 knts. Its not pretty, and you dont have time to gently keep tapping the trimmer to make corrections,, it gets out of control real fast! Again, high speed maneuvering is what im talking about, not, OH LOOK ,, theres a FARP over there, lets float in there and land.

I believe that most of you are overthinking the whole thing. Remember that there are 3 other trim buttons that haven't been implemented yet. Give ED some slack.

We may even have to go back to the beginning and re-learn everything once the other trimmers are mapped, be patient.

 

For sudden combat/evasive maneuvers, believe it or not, press and hold the trim button and you can make any maneuvers you want

without losing control. It cancels your trim and gives you full control, then while still holding the button, recover to a normal flight path and release. 

Retrim as necessary to level off. I have tried it with and without holding the button and holding the button works. (for me at least) Without holding the button, I crash every time.

I encourage everyone to at least give it a try.  BTW I am using center trim with a spring stick and pedals. As long as I hold the button I can whip her around like a sports car.

Note:   This technique is only for emergency maneuvers, not for normal trimming.

[Fakum]

15 minutes ago, rayrayblues said:

I believe that most of you are overthinking the whole thing. Remember that there are 3 other trim buttons that haven't been implemented yet. Give ED some slack.

We may even have to go back to the beginning and re-learn everything once the other trimmers are mapped, be patient.

 

For sudden combat/evasive maneuvers, believe it or not, press and hold the trim button and you can make any maneuvers you want

without losing control. It cancels your trim and gives you full control, then while still holding the button, recover to a normal flight path and release. 

Retrim as necessary to level off. I have tried it with and without holding the button and holding the button works. (for me at least) Without holding the button, I crash every time.

I encourage everyone to at least give it a try.  BTW I am using center trim with a spring stick and pedals. As long as I hold the button I can whip her around like a sports car.

Note:   This technique is only for emergency maneuvers, not for normal trimming.

That method requires you to hold that button in the entire time you are trying to settle out and do other things fast paced things AND you have no idea if the controls are actually centered unless you want to keep the controls indicator on (if you want the additional distraction. Trimmer reset in the other helos solve all of this instantly and without unnecessary headaches!

 

[JTF-191 Scooter]

Hopefully we get some definitive answers from ED.

[rayrayblues]

32 minutes ago, Fakum said:

That method requires you to hold that button in the entire time you are trying to settle out and do other things fast paced things AND you have no idea if the controls are actually centered unless you want to keep the controls indicator on (if you want the additional distraction. Trimmer reset in the other helos solve all of this instantly and without unnecessary headaches!

 

If you have no idea where your controls are then you are not looking at the HUD. No need for the CI.

Everything you need to know is on the HUD. Altitude, speed, sideslip ball, and direction of travel.

What more do you need?

[agamemnon_b5]

3 minutes ago, rayrayblues said:

If you have no idea where your controls are then you are not looking at the HUD. No need for the CI.

Everything you need to know is on the HUD. Altitude, speed, sideslip ball, and direction of travel.

What more do you need?

They don't tell you where your controls are, just what the aircraft is doing.  They aren't necessarily the same since in-game control location is different from where my controls actually are.

[Rongor]

1 hour ago, Malakhit said:

Not quite true. Altitude Hold and submodes are not yet implemented, for sure, but Attitude Hold works, as does the disengage button (Trim Hat Down) - it definitely cancels ATT HOLD.

As long as it isn't documented we have no idea whether it works. We only know that pressing the button has some effect, for example the status window box being displayed around the TAS and the disengage button making the box go away. There even seems to be some effect on the flight but everything else is pure assumption. the only thing not waiting for stuff to be implemented is the FTR and the disengage.

Since we can not even select an attitude hold mode, which per the manual is a precondition, it seems a far stretch to claim "it works" and I would prefer people to stop putting their assumptions out as if they were facts. Then this thread might be a lot shorter

[Rongor]

1 hour ago, rayrayblues said:

For sudden combat/evasive maneuvers, believe it or not, press and hold the trim button and you can make any maneuvers you want without losing control. It cancels your trim and gives you full control, then while still holding the button, recover to a normal flight path and release.

Comments like the red marked make it so much harder for beginners to understand how stuff actually works

Retrim as necessary to level off. I have tried it with and without holding the button and holding the button works. (for me at least) Without holding the button, I crash every time.

I encourage everyone to at least give it a try.  BTW I am using center trim with a spring stick and pedals. As long as I hold the button I can whip her around like a sports car.

Note:   This technique is only for emergency maneuvers, not for normal trimming.

Ok, so now you are claiming a continuous force trim release affects steering inputs. Please just stop.

Use the CI as @agamemnon_b5 recommended and notice how your 'advice' does exactly nothing.

I would strongly recommend not to do this. You risk accidently letting go the FTR button while you are in your 'evasive maneuvers', then you'll enter a world of pain because your controls will do nothing until centered.

[rayrayblues]

23 minutes ago, agamemnon_b5 said:

They don't tell you where your controls are, just what the aircraft is doing.  They aren't necessarily the same since in-game control location is different from where my controls actually are.

Isn't "What The Aircraft Is Doing" the whole point? Why is it so important to know "where your controls" are? I've heard that a lot in this thread.

My physical controls are spring loaded so they are always centered. Where my virtual controls are is not important.

The helicopter knows where they are and that's all that counts. Fly without the controls indicator and you will understand what I mean.

Where you are going, speed, altitude, vertical speed, sideslip etc. are all there is to know.  

 

After your emergency maneuver just fly straight & level, release the button, re-trim, and have a nice day.  

 

BTW, if you are trimming during emergency maneuvers you're in trouble. Cancel the trim by holding the button.

You see, there is a reset function after all and it won't pitch up and stall.