Trimming the Ka-50

[Topo]

Thanks!

[Belphe]

Hi,

 

I'm not sure how it's gonna work for me cause I'm at work and cannot check it out but you wrote it would be enough just to tap the T key to trim the helo. Now, just after take off, when I keep Bank, Alt, Pitch and Heading Holds ON and just managed to bring the craft to a standstill, pressing T always causes my helo to pitch backwards - not to trim it! I thought it would be the other way round - all holds are enabled and I have managed to "zero" it so trimming should "remember" this setup and maintain it after I return the cyclic to the default position (release it). It doesn't happen thou... I mean it wasn't happening yesterday as I was trying it. The logic says that if the cyclic is being slightly pushed forwards to compensate with the more or less -25% backward (default) ground trim, after pressing the T button (zeroeing the setup) the helo would start to pitch forwards (because we still hold the joy forwards!)... Only releasing of the cyclic would stop the forward movement... An exactly opposite thing happens to my Ka-50... When stopped I keep the cyclic forward to compensate the -25% ground trim and then press T I end up going even more backwards and have to add EVEN MORE forward cyclic to counter that... Why???

 

Now, I haven't checked the way of trimming the helo which I was told a few minutes ago and which you mention as a second best option: pressing and holding the T all the time during the maneuver and releasing it only after you achieve the desired state - in my case, a hover. However, I believe the first one will not work for me... I tried it all yesterday afternoon.

 

Oh, and one more thing - one day, when I finally manage to trim the helo to hover "with my hand in my pockets", will enabling the Auto-Hover LALT+T take over the control and maintain the hover OR will I only be given additional HUD elements that would help me to keep it hovered, still leaving me on manual (stabilised by the 4 APs) )control???

Edited December 16, 2008 by Belphe

[MrReynolds]

....and remember if using another device for rudders (a steering wheel for example; to use its accelerate / brake as a rudder) to turn off force feedback as it interferes with trimming. :thumbup:

[TX-Gunslinger]

Jalava, great instructional post! Thanks a million.

[kaiserb_uk]

....and remember if using another device for rudders (a steering wheel for example; to use its accelerate / brake as a rudder) to turn off force feedback as it interferes with trimming. :thumbup:

+1

 

Caught me out, big time.

[harv]

very easy to understand and very useful. Thankyou!!!!

[Lange_666]

@ Mangaroca: I had (and still have from time to time) the same problem as you. Bring up the Controls Indicator (RCTRL Enter) window the moment you start flying. It will show you the position of the controls (cyclic, collective, rudder and throttle) according to their zero position. To see how trim works, push your rudder either full right or left and watch the horizontal rudder indicator move to the pushed direction. If you release the rudder, the indicator will return to the center. Then while keeping the rudder pushed, press the trim button, then release the rudder. You'll notice that the rudder indicator stays on the side you pushed it and does not return to center. This happens with all control inputs if you trim them.

At this moment, if i fly without the Controls Indicator, sooner or later, i get lost and things go bananas. If i then push the reset-trim button, i loose total control which result in a nice crash. Luckely it's a sim so we can stand up and try again...

[Belphe]

Hi,

 

I actually found a solution! It was my second controler - Saitek R440 Steering Wheel, or should I say the FF in it! I unplugged the device and now everything works like a charm!

 

Thanks!

[Kaitsu]

Hi,

 

I actually found a solution! It was my second controler - Saitek R440 Steering Wheel, or should I say the FF in it! I unplugged the device and now everything works like a charm!

 

Thanks!

No need to unplug. You can also disable FF in one of the .lua files but forgot which one.

 

Btw, FF wheel makes a great collective if you do not have HOTAS, just joystick. Just set forces to zero for BS in wheel config software. I actually use my Logitech MOMO wheel as throttle in every sim I have (except in Condor sailplanes where I use it as elevator trim) :)

Edited December 17, 2008 by Kaitsu

[zika1234]

Turnin to new heading?

 

Hi..I have question abou this post...Do I need to keep trim pressed all the time when turning to new heading, and then release it at correct heading?

 

Quick Tutorial on Flying the KA-50 with AP

 

There has been a lot of talk on how to trim properly, here is how I do it.

 

This tutorial is written using force feedback joystick, but principles are same technically.

 

Normal mode for flying the KA-50 is to keep the Pitch, Bank and HDG Hold autopilot channels on all the time.

When stabilizing into route altitude the ALT Hold autopilot is usually also activated.

Depending on flight profile and mission purpose you want to do this in BARO (constant sea level altitude)

or Radio (constant ground altitude) mode.

 

When flying the KA-50 in autopilot mode, there are three distinct modes of autopilotage:

- Autopilot Channel Hold (Normal mode)

- Route

- Route Descent (still bit unsure how this works, gotta read more, not explained here)

 

Understanding how the autopilot channel hold works is critical to flying KA-50 properly, so here

is how the beast works:

- Point nose, then click trim. Or press trim, point, release trim. Simple :)

 

Actually when you are in heli without touching anything and stick centered in middle of trim zone,

autopilot attempts to hold current pitch, bank and heading.

 

When you make changes to any of these attitudes (Note: not altitude, the way your heli points),

autopilot tries to fight back and correct back to the original attitude automatically.

 

To change attitude,

- either change direction and shortly press trim (normal method). After releasing trim autopilot now

assumes new attitude of helicopter and attempts to keep that.

- Or you can first press trim, then change direction and release trim. This is faster way to change

attitude but also more unstable and may cause oscillation and overshooting.

 

One thing to remember is that when changing the heading using rudder, you must first yaw to the correct

hdg and then correct the counter-yaw effect by keeping the direction and releasing rudder slowly. I recommend

keeping trim pressed down while yawing.

 

Trimming while having rudder down in over 20% will trim some continuous yaw in and

autopilot is going to have hard time keeping the heading when in route and you might experience some

sideways slipping while flying routes.

 

This may feel too rigid for most helipilots, but as KA-50 is mainly for support operations, most of the attacks are performed

many kilometers away from ingress point by slowing down at initial point and then searching for targets and attacking while

holding constant speed into wanted attack direction. This may be towards target zone, if doing overfly & turn. Or you might want a

slow strafe across the targeting area while spewing missiles and rockets.

 

Simple example:

SPD 0, HDG 000, Pitch 0, Bank 0, Alt 250R (radio), ALT HLD activated with collective brake set at 250R, all AP channels on.

 

For simplicity lets presume that pitch 0 will hover KA-50 perfectly.

 

Now in this state chopper hovers in current location automatically and you don't need to touch anything.

 

Accelerating to 200KM/H:

 

- From here, push yoke forwards and wait for 200KM/H speed to come. When arriving at 200KM/H click trim and release pressure slightly

on yoke. Do it slowly and AP will correct your pitch into attitude that will hold 200KM/H regardless of changing winds etc.

 

- If done slowly enough and correctly, altitude will stay in 250 meters with no change in collective. However you might need to

give slight addition to collective because 20% range in servo might not be enough to keep the height. Giving bit extra won't

cause initial climb because AP will counter-correct this until BS starts sinking.

 

Turning:

 

- When turning, push rudder and wait for correct heading. When arriving correct heading push trim down and then release pressure

on rudder slowly to stop yaw at correct heading, when rudder is completely up, release trim.

- You should now be pointing at your new direction with little or now counter-yaw

- Banking slightly while doing the turn will lessen counter-yaw effect and is faster.

 

Changing altitude:

- Let's say we want to ascent to 1000M Baro.

- Increase collective slightly and disengage ALT HLD

- You should now be entering in controlled climb.

- When arriving at correct altitude, activate ALT HLD and activate Collective Break at correct altitude.

- Also remember to release collective to slow down to the altitude or you will overshoot.

 

Flying route:

- First remember to set first WPT correctly in ABRIS. This has no effect on route, but you can follow your

vertical profile in ABRIS this way. By default, WPT is set to start airfield and is not update on route automatically

if not set to point at first WPT. To do this, go NAV->FPL->rotate knob to select first WPT and press WPT. Return to NAV.

- First turn to correct heading by hand and start accelating.

- Enter Route mode by pressing R.

- Autopilot will now handle bank and hdg channels according to route. You still need to handle pitch for speed and

collective to manage vertical profile.

 

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but this i how I keep my 50 in air stable :)

[rmakowsky]

No you can push trim to start the turn, recenter the cyclic at the desired bank angle and release trim. The FD will now try to keep that bank angle (unless in route mode where it will try to return to heading).

[Lange_666]

No need to unplug. You can also disable FF in one of the .lua files but forgot which one.

It's in ...Ka-50/Config/Producer.cfg file.

 

Change the key "ForceFeedbackEnabled" from "true" to "false" and save.

[lion737]

@ Mangaroca: I had (and still have from time to time) the same problem as you. Bring up the Controls Indicator (RCTRL Enter) window the moment you start flying. It will show you the position of the controls (cyclic, collective, rudder and throttle) according to their zero position. To see how trim works, push your rudder either full right or left and watch the horizontal rudder indicator move to the pushed direction. If you release the rudder, the indicator will return to the center. Then while keeping the rudder pushed, press the trim button, then release the rudder. You'll notice that the rudder indicator stays on the side you pushed it and does not return to center. This happens with all control inputs if you trim them.

At this moment, if i fly without the Controls Indicator, sooner or later, i get lost and things go bananas. If i then push the reset-trim button, i loose total control which result in a nice crash. Luckely it's a sim so we can stand up and try again...

 

This wouldn´t happen in the real heli. The problem to simulate the trim is,that we have only PC-joysticks. They have only the centered position as zero-force position. Therefore we have to release the stick into that centered position when releasing the trim. I doubt that is the case in the real KA-50. I think if you release the trim button, the position it is will become the zero-force position. Therefore it cannot go out of control, if there was an reset trim button. (don´t know whether it really has one).

Furthermore it is not possible to trim the controls (especially the rudder) to the full extend by simply pushing the trim button several times while keeping the input !!

 

Can somebody confirm that ? (...who does know about the real one)

Edited December 18, 2008 by lion737

[Jalava]

There is no reset trim in real KA-50, it's just in sim because beta testers really felt it was necessary.

 

Btw, with proper ff joysticks (MSFFB2, is there other good ones left?), zore-force position is actually where you press the trim. However, I feel there is some bug in trim because clicking trim while position is set causes strange fluctuation in pitch unless you keep trim pressed for while and stabilize the position again before release.

[lion737]

Thanks Jalava !!

 

...trying to get the MSFFB2 immidiately :D

 

(...and hoping they get the bug out)

[Jalava]

Getting MSFFB2 might be bit tricky considering it came available 2001 and they discontinued it over 5 years ago or so..

 

I'm just so hoping that Logitech would come up with G-series replacement for this, the G25 wheel and G15 keyboard has been top notch for me, especially the wheel and pedals.

[Marder]

It's in ...Ka-50/Config/Producer.cfg file.

 

Change the key "ForceFeedbackEnabled" from "true" to "false" and save.

 

i have a saitek x52 controller (no FF) and i disabled FF in the producer.cfg -file.

but if i centre my stick after releasing the trimmer my ka50 pitches up.

no other controll-devices are attached to my computer except my logitech g5 mouse...

maybe the mouse is the problem... maybe installed drivers for a gamepad or a racing wheel...

i don't know. please :helpsmilie:

:joystick:

[lion737]

I would like to go back on problems with trim button affecting rudders. On Mi-24 trimmer button is not affecting rudder pedals. I find it wrong that on DCS BS trim is also neutralizing forces on rudders. It is normal that leg muscles are much stronger, and logically less sensitive to small forces than our hands. Therefore I’m having problems feeling where the neutral position on my pedals is. So I find it a bit disturbing that with the press on trim button, besides I have to move my joystick back to neutral, I also have to concentrate to move my pedals back to neutral. That is something that I usually I don’t succeed to do, at least not as precisely as I would like to. Result is always that my helicopter swings a bit to the other side. Therefore I think that it would be useful at least to have possibility to have option to turn off or on rudders from trimming function depending on user’s wish.

I hope that my reply was not too long. If it was please accept my apology.

 

Absolutely right !! Would be a huge improvement in easyness of trimming the sim.

Especially with FFB stick, because its unlogical to do the cyclic trimming the real way, and

the rudder trimming without FFB centering ´unreal´.

My rudders do have very weak springs (or my legs are too strong :-))) so that i dont feel that center position.

 

Please ED, give us the option to switch rudder trim Off !! THANKS

 

 

PS: If you haven´t centered the rudder exactly when trimming, several quick hits on the trim button (...as you do it in

the real thing as described by igormk) will bring your rudder to full deflection !!! You loose control and even dont know

why fast enough.

Edited December 19, 2008 by lion737

[Lange_666]

Mmm, i have that problem too from time to time, not always. Sometimes after trimming and letting go of the stick, the Ka-50 also pitches. If it does, it's mostly up, sometimes down. I recon this has something to do with the moment you trim and release the stick but that's only a rough guess.

 

Although i'm having fun controlling the beast, i still think this is a very stupid way to control a helicopter. Also, i don't understand the need of a reset-trim button. Everytime i have used it so far (because my controlles were overtrimmed, can't explain it otherwise), is resulted in an uncontrollable machine eventualy crashing.

[Acedy]

i have a saitek x52 controller (no FF) and i disabled FF in the producer.cfg -file.

but if i centre my stick after releasing the trimmer my ka50 pitches up.

 

I too experienced this effect initially, and I could cure it by setting a small deadzone for the x- and y-axis (5-10). I think the reason why this happens is that (especially on older X52s) the stick has some play, but the hall sensors are actually sensitive enough to register small unintended deviations from the exact center position. Usually when you trim and then center the stick without applying any force, you will just put your hand on the handrest. That way you unintentionally pull the stick back a little bit, which in turn results in the helicopter pitching up from the trimmed position. Applying a small deadzone prevents this from happening.

 

This may also be of interest to you:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=583711&postcount=42

[Lange_666]

PS: If you haven´t centered the rudder exactly when trimming, several quick hits on the trim button (...as you do it in the real thing as described by igormk) will bring your rudder to full deflection !!! You loose control and even dont know why fast enough.

I experience the same thing, always wondered why the rudder suddenly (on the controls indicator view) was sitting all the way to the left, so maybe the above is the case...?

[Marder]

I too experienced this effect initially, and I could cure it by setting a small deadzone for the x- and y-axis (5-10). I think the reason why this happens is that (especially on older X52s) the stick has some play, but the hall sensors are actually sensitive enough to register small unintended deviations from the exact center position. Usually when you trim and then center the stick without applying any force, you will just put your hand on the handrest. That way you unintentionally pull the stick back a little bit, which in turn results in the helicopter pitching up from the trimmed position. Applying a small deadzone prevents this from happening.

 

This may also be of interest to you:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=583711&postcount=42

 

thank you for your answer. but you seem to have a different problem.

in short: e.g.: i fly @ 200kt towards 270° in 400m. constantly without sinking, baking etc. -i release the trim-button.

now the problem: i put my hand off the stick after trimming and the ka50 pitches up...

am i too stupid to understand something? i thought the trimming also sets a new default centre of my x52.

 

//edit: ah ok, now i found something (last try for me) i read somewhere: sometimes the invertation of ff-axis can do weird things to trimming. i do not have a ff-joystick but i will try switching this option.

 

//edit: i tried every option/ setting now, i cannot trim my heli...

Edited December 19, 2008 by Marder

[lion737]

Most probably !! I don´t think we are the only ones with that prob ;)

 

Perhaps two different trim buttons for cyclic and rudder could be

a solution, or a button where we can switch the rudder-trim OFF/Combined.

For me a complete disabling would be ok as well, but anything

has to be done :helpsmilie:

 

PS: I hate to have the control indicator on all the time, but it´s just not

possible without at the moment - especially when flying without AP,

when you have to work with the rudder much more.

Edited December 19, 2008 by lion737

[Aser]

Force Trim

 

Hi!

First post.

 

I've been reading the forum but I can't find the answer...

Is it possible to switch to OFF the TRIM ?

I'd like to have the option to switch it off, like in the Bell 412, A109 and AW139 I fly in real life.

In real life is only mandatory to use the trim in IFR flights.

 

With my logitech is a pain in the ass to fly with trim on.

 

Best regards

Aser

[AlphaOneSix]

No, it's not possible to turn it off in the Ka-50. You'll have to wait for the AH-64A module for that. ;)