F-20 Tigershark Please

[TEOMOOSE]

This aircraft would be an excellent addition to Dcs World.

[sirrah]

Personally I'd rather see additional modules that actually went into service.

That said, even more so I'd like to see our currently available modules to get completed, before any new projects are started.

 

But again, that's just my 2 cents and opinion in reply to this new wish 

[WRCRob]

you can get close enough with the JF-17, not a direct descendent but spiritually the same idea. its a fun little module. 

[upyr1]

I expect the best will get is a community mod. It would be awesome if we got the mod then a new developer 

[Evoman]

I know we all have our dream aircraft but you also have to be realistic about it. It takes a lot of actual technical data and input from former pilots that operated a particular aircraft to develop a full fidelity simulation. With that said prototype aircraft have the least data available as only the manufacture would have it. And they are not too keen on giving out that data and license to prototypes. 

You should be grateful that the F-5 is available which is closely related to the F-20. At least that can be used as a great base to build an F-20 mod.

[Exorcet]

12 hours ago, Evoman said:

I know we all have our dream aircraft but you also have to be realistic about it. It takes a lot of actual technical data and input from former pilots that operated a particular aircraft to develop a full fidelity simulation. With that said prototype aircraft have the least data available as only the manufacture would have it. And they are not too keen on giving out that data and license to prototypes. 

You should be grateful that the F-5 is available which is closely related to the F-20. At least that can be used as a great base to build an F-20 mod.

The F-20 was basically a fully designed plane as far as I know. It just didn't get any sales. It's not much different from the Su-25T or Ka-50 in DCS, which barely existed.

[upyr1]

16 hours ago, Exorcet said:

The F-20 was basically a fully designed plane as far as I know. It just didn't get any sales. It's not much different from the Su-25T or Ka-50 in DCS, which barely existed.

I don't know what documentation exists but I do know I'd love to see at least a F-20 mod and if possible a module 

[bies]

On 6/30/2022 at 12:10 PM, Exorcet said:

The F-20 was basically a fully designed plane as far as I know. It just didn't get any sales. It's not much different from the Su-25T or Ka-50 in DCS, which barely existed.

This is very much true, but i see that from another perspective as i think we could have some more widespread and relevant aircrafts than prototypes like Ka-50 or Su-25T. Let alone F-20. With very limited data, not real air war history to have some point of reference, practically impossible to find subject matter experts, it would be simply unrealistic module.

[Evoman]

If its any consolation there is a new F-5 upgrade coming that I just heard off in the below interview. It is mentioned around 24:00min.

 

 

[SkateZilla]

On 6/30/2022 at 6:10 AM, Exorcet said:

The F-20 was basically a fully designed plane as far as I know. It just didn't get any sales. It's not much different from the Su-25T or Ka-50 in DCS, which barely existed.

3 Prototypes were built, it never got beyond that, so there's likely no printed manuals for it anywhere.

Ka-50 had over 30, and the Su-25T was a upgrade program which converted Su-25UBs to the T, they only converted a Dozen (including the prototypes.), but it was a active Aircraft and was fielded by Russian, as was the Ka-50,

Comparing those two to a Prototype that only had 3 built, and never was deployed. Ummm,.

7 hours ago, Evoman said:

If its any consolation there is a new F-5 upgrade coming that I just heard off in the below interview. It is mentioned around 24:00min.

 

 

 

There is not a New F-5E Module coming.

[Exorcet]

On 7/3/2022 at 8:49 AM, bies said:

This is very much true, but i see that from another perspective as i think we could have some more widespread and relevant aircrafts than prototypes like Ka-50 or Su-25T. Let alone F-20. With very limited data, not real air war history to have some point of reference, practically impossible to find subject matter experts, it would be simply unrealistic module.

I know many people share your opinion but I don't think we always have to prioritize the more historically influential aircraft, and those kind of get priority by default (ie no surprise we have most of the teen series, Hind/Apache, the upcoming F-4, etc).

Also I think people need to stop looking at realism as a binary true/false thing. Every aircraft in DCS is built to a different level of fidelity, though most are probably around the same amount of "realism". The F-20 having not been in service may miss some details compared to other modules, but that doesn't make totally it unrealistic. At the very least I think a developer would have to try to get in touch with Northrop to access the validity of the module.

On 7/3/2022 at 10:02 PM, SkateZilla said:

3 Prototypes were built, it never got beyond that, so there's likely no printed manuals for it anywhere.

Ka-50 had over 30, and the Su-25T was a upgrade program which converted Su-25UBs to the T, they only converted a Dozen (including the prototypes.), but it was a active Aircraft and was fielded by Russian, as was the Ka-50,

Comparing those two to a Prototype that only had 3 built, and never was deployed. Ummm,.

 

There is not a New F-5E Module coming.

Apparently there is a manual:

 

https://www.avialogs.com/aircraft-n/northrop/item/4941-ntm-1f-20a-1-northtrop-f-20a-utility-flight-manual

 

It even includes how to use the FCR, which I've seen other documents for. The F-20 was a prototype but it was in a pretty advanced state by the time it was killed off. Northrop really wanted to make the sale and they knew they had some competition from the F-16 and lack of support from the US.

[Evoman]

In conclusion the F-20 could have a slight possibility over the average prototype because it was a in an advanced state ready for sale to what ever country was interested. However because it was never sold and saw no service very little data and know how is known about it with the exception of Northrop and a few test pilots. Therefore it would pretty much be up to Northrop granting the license that would be accompanied with access to all the data they may still have to the party interested in it. Which makes the case for the F-20 uncertain.

[darklanov]

Yes, the jets that saw service are priority. But the F-20 is not like any project that was unsuccessful, the main reason why it was not sold is bureaucracy. The F-20 was ready for mass production, and it was considered by many as the best fighter never built. I think it would be a great addition to DCS. It is the only non production aircraft that I would love to see simulated in DCS.

[Rudel_chw]

2 hours ago, darklanov said:

I think it would be a great addition to DCS

 

I fail to see how an aircraft with no service story can be great for DCS .. all its missions would have to be fictional, same with its liveries, the lack of SME to validate its flight model would mean its Flight Model would also likely be partially fictional ... all this while there are lots of other aircrafts that could be done, like the Sepecat Jaguar or the british Sea Harrier, aircrafts that actually saw combat.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Rudel_chw

[F-2]

1 hour ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

I fail to see how an aircraft with no service story can be great for DCS .. all its missions would have to be fictional, same with its liveries, the lack of SME to validate its flight model would mean its Flight Model would also likely be partially fictional ... all this while there are lots of other aircrafts that could be done, like the Sepecat Jaguar or the british Sea Harrier, aircrafts that actually saw combat.

 

I know a tigershark SME you could ask.

[Exorcet]

2 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

I fail to see how an aircraft with no service story can be great for DCS

What is wrong? DCS is a simulator. The F-20 is perfect. Simulate test/sales flights, simulate weapon certification, simulate the hypothetical simulation where the F-20 was sold and went to war.

2 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

.. all its missions would have to be fictional

This is completely typical of DCS, and in my opinion preferable in some ways to historical conflict. Re-enacting history is fun, but you know how things will end, there is less to be surprised about.

2 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

, same with its liveries, the lack of SME to validate its flight model would mean its Flight Model would also likely be partially fictional

CFD should provide a fairly reasonable flight model, we also have manuals for the plane. Then there is the fact that it's heavily F-5 based, which gives a reference airframe to help fill in some gaps. Not to mention that Northrop is still around and may be able to help.

2 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

... all this while there are lots of other aircrafts that could be done, like the Sepecat Jaguar or the british Sea Harrier, aircrafts that actually saw combat.

 

Honestly, whether a plane has seen combat or not isn't a make or break deal for me. It's just not that important, and I don't see why people care so much about that (but I accept their opinions). As far as DCS goes, we lack details/features to recreate historical conflicts exactly, so while you can have Jaguars and Sea Harriers, that doesn't mean they will end up in recreations of their historical battles. Secondly, DCS has many developers involved. One plane doesn't have to cost us another.

[F-2]

7 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

What is wrong? DCS is a simulator. The F-20 is perfect. Simulate test/sales flights, simulate weapon certification, simulate the hypothetical simulation where the F-20 was sold and went to war.

This is completely typical of DCS, and in my opinion preferable in some ways to historical conflict. Re-enacting history is fun, but you know how things will end, there is less to be surprised about.

CFD should provide a fairly reasonable flight model, we also have manuals for the plane. Then there is the fact that it's heavily F-5 based, which gives a reference airframe to help fill in some gaps. Not to mention that Northrop is still around and may be able to help.

Honestly, whether a plane has seen combat or not isn't a make or break deal for me. It's just not that important, and I don't see why people care so much about that (but I accept their opinions). As far as DCS goes, we lack details/features to recreate historical conflicts exactly, so while you can have Jaguars and Sea Harriers, that doesn't mean they will end up in recreations of their historical battles. Secondly, DCS has many developers involved. One plane doesn't have to cost us another.

I’ve heard good things about Northrop’s willingness to cooperate and provide info on this sorta thing.

[Silver_Dragon]

4 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

What is wrong? DCS is a simulator. The F-20 is perfect. Simulate test/sales flights, simulate weapon certification, simulate the hypothetical simulation where the F-20 was sold and went to war.

This is completely typical of DCS, and in my opinion preferable in some ways to historical conflict. Re-enacting history is fun, but you know how things will end, there is less to be surprised about.

CFD should provide a fairly reasonable flight model, we also have manuals for the plane. Then there is the fact that it's heavily F-5 based, which gives a reference airframe to help fill in some gaps. Not to mention that Northrop is still around and may be able to help.

Honestly, whether a plane has seen combat or not isn't a make or break deal for me. It's just not that important, and I don't see why people care so much about that (but I accept their opinions). As far as DCS goes, we lack details/features to recreate historical conflicts exactly, so while you can have Jaguars and Sea Harriers, that doesn't mean they will end up in recreations of their historical battles. Secondly, DCS has many developers involved. One plane doesn't have to cost us another.

What is the next, a XB-70, a RAH-66, YF-12, XP-67, TSR.2, Avro Arrow, XF-23, Martin-Baker MB5, Commonwealth CA-15 ‘Kangaroo’, Dassault Mirage 4000, IAI Lavi, Focke-Wulf Fw 187 or a Vought XF8U-3 Crusader III? Please, no. Has a great quantity of real enter of service aircrafts with can build on DCS, no a "What if" fandom sceneries.

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, Exorcet said:

Honestly, whether a plane has seen combat or not isn't a make or break deal for me. It's just not that important, and I don't see why people care so much about that (but I accept their opinions).

 

OK, I also accept yours and this is your wish after all    who knows?, ED may even agree to it.

[Exorcet]

8 minutes ago, Silver_Dragon said:

What is the next, a XB-70, a RAH-66, YF-12, XP-67, TSR.2, Avro Arrow, XF-23, Martin-Baker MB5, Commonwealth CA-15 ‘Kangaroo’, Dassault Mirage 4000, IAI Lavi, Focke-Wulf Fw 187 or a Vought XF8U-3 Crusader III? Please, no. Has a great quantity of real enter of service aircrafts with can build on DCS, no a "What if" fandom sceneries.

The F-20 was essentially production ready, which differentiates it from planes like the XB-70, which still had much more engineering work to be done.

That said, I would not mind having the X-plane series in DCS. Taking on the role of a test pilot would be as fun as flying a combat campaign in my opinion.

[darklanov]

7 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

I fail to see how an aircraft with no service story can be great for DCS .. all its missions would have to be fictional, same with its liveries, the lack of SME to validate its flight model would mean its Flight Model would also likely be partially fictional ... all this while there are lots of other aircrafts that could be done, like the Sepecat Jaguar or the british Sea Harrier, aircrafts that actually saw combat.

 

DCS world is a combat flight sim, but it's also a military sandbox. We're fighting in scenarios and battles that never happened; the cold war turning hot, WW3 etc. In DCS we're flying in an alternate reality where things went south and all hell broke loose. Well I'm telling ya, in this alternate reality , the F-20 made it into production. Where <profanity> hit the fan and war started grinding economies, countries like South Korea , Bahrain, Taiwan, etc... started looking for more affordable solutions to send to the front lines: this is where the F-20 shines. In DCS, the F-5-e is competitive in BFM, but it is rather underpowered and its A2A loadout is very limited. With the new engine and all the new avionics and radar, and with the capability to fire Sparrows, or even AMRAAMs,  the F-20 would slap

As eager as I am to get the Tigershark in DCS, I do agree that aircraft that saw service are a priority, personally I'm looking forward to getting the F-15e and the rumored full fidelity  mig-29. Cheers

Edited October 25, 2022 by darklanov

[Silver_Dragon]

DCS World has a combar sim, but the F-20 was a failed program with not get sales by a 80s competence vs others on production aircrafts. Intent revive a extinct program with 3 prototipes olny to a "what if" has similar to a RAH-66, canceled programs of a doom prototipes, nothing more.

Enviado desde mi RNE-L21 mediante Tapatalk

[Exorcet]

4 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

DCS World has a combar sim... "what if"
 

But these two things go hand in hand. Simulation =/= historical recreations only. We'd lose the entire user files section if that was the case. Historical mode would have to be enforced in the ME if that was the case. Etc.

[Cab]

In case any of you Tigershark fans haven't heard of this book:

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/1809254.Warriors

[Silver_Dragon]

3 hours ago, Exorcet said:

But these two things go hand in hand. Simulation =/= historical recreations only. We'd lose the entire user files section if that was the case. Historical mode would have to be enforced in the ME if that was the case. Etc.

We talk about aircrafts, no hypotetics wars, missions, etc, with the comunity and ED and 3rd parties build. What next? Build a Narnia or Lord of Rings map?.