What makes the Apache the most difficult helicopter module to fly?

[TobiasA]

You guys need to stop flying with full tanks in the desert.

When carrying 8 Hellfires and a pair of rocket pods plus a full tank, you can fly for hours but can't hover in hot and high environments. Go 60-70% fuel and it will handle just nice.

If you hover and need to lose altitude quickly, dip your nose forward or roll to any side with barely touching the collective. Then, convert altitude into speed.

It will fly like a fixed wing between 40 and 120 kts. Throw the stick around as you wish, just don't go nuts on the collective. The Apache is the helicopter that I am most precise in, even more robust as the Ka-50 which I crashed quite often by going to hard on the collective. The Apache is a beast, but it takes about two weeks of flight training until you get friends with it.

[gav88888]

I got it on pre-release but I don't bother using it anymore, not until it''s easier to fly as I find it a nightmare transitioning in and out of a hover, also trying to keep it level whilst going to the target is difficult, you can't do hands free anymore, its all over the place, the attitude hold used to keep it stable.

My mate also has the apache and the same hotas as me and has the same issues. We both prefer using the KA. The Blackhawk is definitely the nicest flying helo in the game but does have a lot of tech keeping it stable.

Hopefully with some tweaks and updates the apache will be a lot better.

[pii]

On 9/2/2022 at 11:16 AM, gav88888 said:

I got it on pre-release but I don't bother using it anymore, not until it''s easier to fly as I find it a nightmare transitioning in and out of a hover, also trying to keep it level whilst going to the target is difficult, you can't do hands free anymore, its all over the place, the attitude hold used to keep it stable.

My mate also has the apache and the same hotas as me and has the same issues. We both prefer using the KA. The Blackhawk is definitely the nicest flying helo in the game but does have a lot of tech keeping it stable.

Hopefully with some tweaks and updates the apache will be a lot better.

What hotas and stick do you have? I had a warthog stick and throttle and couldn't fly worth a damn, until I removed all the springs and finally buying a Virpil base and sticking the WH stick on that base. Both worked extermly well. Now I can fly like the wind  lol seriousy though it makes a BIG differene if you have a warthog it's litterally night and day. Before I could barely land or hover and now I can land on ships, helo pad, rocks , anywhere, etc. 

I'm actually loving the 64 now. I've gone from WTF! is happening to WOW! 

Good luck and happy flying 

[placsea]

After flying the huey I thought the Apache would be a dream, haha. What I found worked best for me was to set some fairly aggressive curves on all axis including rudder and setting a Y saturation value of 85 for pitch and roll and a deadzone of 3. After a while with some practice I raised the Y sats upto 90 and reduced the curves a little. When taking off I found the most important thing is to slowly increase the power and anticipate left pedal and with very gentle cyclic inputs slowly bring her off the ground into your 5 ft hover. 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

On 8/26/2022 at 12:41 PM, Schmidtfire said:

So I have had the Apache since the release and I just cannot figure out why it is so difficult to fly. In the other helicopter modules it is  pretty much just point and trim. Turning is easy.

With the Apache I get this strange "top heavy" wobble effect it, banking from side to side. Especially when coming out of a turn. The collective I don't understand at all. ROTOR RPM LOW! ROTOR RPM LOW! ...yeah, thanks Betty. It's like the helicopter is trying to kill me on purpose   

What am I missing? Or is it known to be a very difficult helicopter to fly IRL? Because comparing it to other modules it is night and day difference in difficulty.

ROTOR RPM LOW is Bitching Betty warning of overpitching. Not overpitching of fuselage, but of of main rotor . Meaning that collective is too much for present flight condition. As collective increases pitch of rotor blades, the blades catch more air and are struggling to overcome drag, which lowers rotor RPM , which increases disk coning, which reduces rotor disk diameter below what is needed for flight. Partial loss of lift results.  Powerplant is unable to meet power demanded by pilot. Immediate corrective action is lower collection smoothly. Avoid quick cyclic forward. If collective is lowered aggressively too fast, Apache may encounter uncommanded roll to left. 

 

[gav88888]

18 hours ago, pii said:

What hotas and stick do you have? I had a warthog stick and throttle and couldn't fly worth a damn, until I removed all the springs and finally buying a Virpil base and sticking the WH stick on that base. Both worked extermly well. Now I can fly like the wind  lol seriousy though it makes a BIG differene if you have a warthog it's litterally night and day. Before I could barely land or hover and now I can land on ships, helo pad, rocks , anywhere, etc. 

I'm actually loving the 64 now. I've gone from WTF! is happening to WOW! 

Good luck and happy flying 

We have the VKB Gladiator.

What works best for me is letting George fly and I take the CPG seat. George is able to hold a hover perfectly lol

[pii]

3 hours ago, gav88888 said:

We have the VKB Gladiator.

What works best for me is letting George fly and I take the CPG seat. George is able to hold a hover perfectly lol

The first week I had this thing I said I was jealous of his rock steady hover, while actual people were flopping all over the sky.  

[admiki]

4 hours ago, pii said:

The first week I had this thing I said I was jealous of his rock steady hover, while actual people were flopping all over the sky.  

Problem is, if flying during day, is that people try to use IHADSS all the time, which takes practice. Just look outside, especially if low and fly it like Huey.

[Scaley]

1 hour ago, admiki said:

Problem is, if flying during day, is that people try to use IHADSS all the time, which takes practice. Just look outside, especially if low and fly it like Huey.

This is really good advice. Personally I'd suggest learning to fly/hover the Apache without the IHADSS display, and just look out the window. The flight model is certainly work in progress, and will inevitably change as the module develops, but right now it's certainly absolutely good enough to learn to hover and fly well. The flight model changes are likely to be iterative and so there will be a little bit of "update" required with each patch, but it's really not that big a deal each time a patch comes out. If you learn the basics then they will carry over pretty easily. 

[pii]

On 9/2/2022 at 11:16 AM, gav88888 said:

The Blackhawk is definitely the nicest flying helo in the game but does have a lot of tech keeping it stable.

Probably due to it lack a FM and systems simulated. 

[Mr_Blastman]

On 9/2/2022 at 11:16 AM, gav88888 said:

I got it on pre-release but I don't bother using it anymore, not until it''s easier to fly as I find it a nightmare transitioning in and out of a hover, also trying to keep it level whilst going to the target is difficult, you can't do hands free anymore, its all over the place, the attitude hold used to keep it stable.

My mate also has the apache and the same hotas as me and has the same issues. We both prefer using the KA. The Blackhawk is definitely the nicest flying helo in the game but does have a lot of tech keeping it stable.

Hopefully with some tweaks and updates the apache will be a lot better.

 

Fly the Hind much?  That thing makes the Apache feel like a ballerina.

 

[Hiob]

2 hours ago, Mr_Blastman said:

 

Fly the Hind much?  That thing makes the Apache feel like a ballerina.

 

…a ballerina suffering from a seizure. 

[TheOtherSider]

It is likely a failure to understand how the trim works and bad curves. Out of all the helos the apache is definitely more temperamental and feels a lot like you are definitely trying to balance it on a knifes edge. The default controls are trash. Which was the biggest issue for me. If your curves and saturatations are not right FOR YOU then this thing flies like wet dog poo. Like for ME  I turned saturation y down in axis tune, to 80. And set a curve of 10. It now feels responsive with out being squirrely and with out being sluggish again this is what feels right for me. Start a flight get it high in the air and play with the settings until you get something that feels manageable, Also when ever you start and get into the apache, hit right control and enter to bring up the control imput tracker. This module  starts with the cyclic and rudders off center regardless of were they physically are(its a bug that wags mentioned in his very first video and true to eagle dynamics fashion it is still there 6 months later...) try to take off like that and outcome is predictable. Work the rudder and cyclic and it should recenter your flight controls in the sim. 

 

The other problem is the trim and its settings and poorly understanding how it works. Firstly in options the default trim settings are <profanity>. In default when you push the trim switch up it doubles your stick and rudder inputs. So if you move the cyclic for 5 degrees of bank and hit trim you are going to get 10. Which makes the apache feel like it has a mind of its own. Select the second option. This option is still not ideal but works better. This one however. When you bank or pitch or use the rudders and trim you have to immediately return the stick and rudders to zero. Otherwise you will not have control until you do. Also you lose the same amount of authority in the opposite direction of your trim. If you bank left 40degrees and trim you have lost 40 degrees of travel back to the left. So what you have to do is roll right 20 degrees trim center then  then roll right another 20 to get back to center again. Or you end up in a situation where you have rolled and are trying to straighten up and you are hard over right but the apache is still going left. Which is confusing and if you don't realize what's going on it feels like this is very hard to fly and like the apache is fighting you ....which it is.

 

I got the apache on pre-order I have not touched it until j7st two days ago...until I got it sorted out I was regretting my purchase once got it sorted and it clicked. This might be on of the more enjoyable modules to fly. 

 

 

[pii]

On 9/5/2022 at 1:26 PM, admiki said:

fly it like Huey

Blasphemy!  

[M1Combat]

I mean it has a few quirks, but...  It seems pretty easy to fly to me.  I have a ton of time in the Shark and a bit in the Hind.  I feel it just needs a couple small tweaks maybe but it's not "bad" or even difficult IMO...

 

[Dallas88B]

As someone who doesn't have helicopter experience, what makes it difficult to fly is that when something goes wrong for me I do not know if is because I am a bit hopeless, or if its a bug.

[Stewart]

I don't understand what everyone is talking about. The FM is almost perfect. This is one of the easiest helicopters to fly in the game, besides the Gazelle. Gazelle is the easiest and the Apache is second. Only thing that is bad is the SAS going off all the time. Just move the stick over an inch and it goes off and I have a 20cm extension. 

[Dallas88B]

2 hours ago, Stewart said:

I don't understand what everyone is talking about. The FM is almost perfect

Of course you don't. 

[Phantom_Mark]

On 9/21/2022 at 11:20 PM, Dallas88B said:

As someone who doesn't have helicopter experience, what makes it difficult to fly is that when something goes wrong for me I do not know if is because I am a bit hopeless, or if its a bug.

I have that problem with the Apache, my regular worse failing is running out of rudder/yaw authority and it somehow sucking all the torque so there is none left for the main rotor, frequently ending up in a death spiral, or if I am lucky just enough time to max engines, drop the yaw, reduce collective to spin up the engine RPM again.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Phantom_Mark

[lefuneste01]

Hello, I barely finished the Gazelle "Dixmude" campaign  adapted for the Apache. I had a lot of ground crash due to very weird FM of the beast, so mission to replay.  She sometime went into barrel roll for unknown reason, I feel it occuring more frequently than before. I just can no more fly her safely. I flew 2 different UH1 campaign without this kind of issues.

I used winter sales to purchase the Hind, let put the Apache on the shelve untill better days.

Edited September 24, 2022 by lefuneste01

[Floyd1212]

Yeah, it's a bit rough at the moment; a major regression from where it was previously, in my opinion.  Let's hope ED pushes a hot fix soon.

[Raptor9]

So I am a little baffled at the moment, since there is a good mix of users saying it's an improvement and others saying it's a regression. I would assume that some users are referring to different aspects of the flight model when making generalized statements as such, depending on what aspect they find most troublesome.

Personally, I find the flight model to be more accurate on the stability side of things, however the tail rotor VRS is an outlier that has been reported already. There is obviously still a lot of aspects of the flight model and SCAS that are still being worked on, but I find the aircraft much easier to fly with the latest update.

For the sake of being specific, I am using no curves and have a 90% Y saturation on my pitch and roll to make up for the fact I don't have a full length cyclic.

A few of my keybinds needed to be re-binded after the update, so maybe some user curves/settings also need to be re-tuned? I'm just spit-balling possible solutions here trying to determine why there is a disparity in user feedback.

[Swift.]

6 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

So I am a little baffled at the moment, since there is a good mix of users saying it's an improvement and others saying it's a regression. I would assume that some users are referring to different aspects of the flight model when making generalized statements as such, depending on what aspect they find most troublesome.

Personally, I find the flight model to be more accurate on the stability side of things, however the tail rotor VRS is an outlier that has been reported already. There is obviously still a lot of aspects of the flight model and SCAS that are still being worked on, but I find the aircraft much easier to fly with the latest update.

For the sake of being specific, I am using no curves and have a 90% Y saturation on my pitch and roll to make up for the fact I don't have a full length cyclic.

A few of my keybinds needed to be re-binded after the update, so maybe some user curves/settings also need to be re-tuned? I'm just spit-balling possible solutions here trying to determine why there is a disparity in user feedback.

My main complaint with the vanilla SCAS modelling is the very sticky feeling in the pedals. The cyclic damping and assistance feels fantastic to me however.

And then of course, the whole collective SCAS alt hold thing is obviously still WIP.

IMO. The first iteration of the Yaw SCAS was the best, when the breakout value was closer to the values stated in EDs manual. Since the addition of the 'heading hold' the breakout value has been increased to a ridiculous value (some 20% from trim, it looks like). Which it would appear to be a result of the heading hold having to function without all of the SCAS variables being defined yet.

I'd be curious what you think of Scaleys FM edit tbh, because the heading hold in that is more powerful than vanilla DCS (to match Brads feedback IIRC) and the breakout value is much closer to the 3% stated in the manual, so now its actually possible to add or subtract less than a degree of heading whilst still having it able to compensate for quite significant power changes.

[Raptor9]

7 minutes ago, Swift. said:

And then of course, the whole collective SCAS alt hold thing is obviously still WIP.

Yes, the FMC Collective channel is probably what still needs the most work within the SCAS logic.

7 minutes ago, Swift. said:

IMO. The first iteration of the Yaw SCAS was the best, when the breakout value was closer to the values stated in EDs manual. Since the addition of the 'heading hold' the breakout value has been increased to a ridiculous value (some 20% from trim, it looks like). Which it would appear to be a result of the heading hold having to function without all of the SCAS variables being defined yet.

Are you referring to with or without the Attitude Hold engaged? Because right now the heading hold seems very close with Attitude Hold engaged, but the breakout value seems to not be where it should be with it engaged. But I haven't done in-depth tests with the latest build in this regard, I've been occupied with other items.

10 minutes ago, Swift. said:

I'd be curious what you think of Scaleys FM edit tbh

I've never used it, nor do I intend to. There are a lot more factors in play under the hood that needs to be worked on and tweaked any time the flight model is adjusted, so in my personal opinion it is not worth my time to provide feedback on a set of adjustments that don't adequately capture the entire gambit of physical factors in play or would be inserted into the game. I'm not making any judgements on it, I'm just saying that it wouldn't be an efficient use of my time or an effective feedback mechanism for the devs.

The aggressiveness of any given SCAS channel under various conditions of attitude, airspeed, power applied, and hold sub-mode of course will be an ongoing thing as needed.

[admiki]

Apart from TR issues that are now present, I find rest of FM to be improved. Is there room for more improvement, of course. But we are getting there. That's what EA is for.