Who wants to be a gunner or navigator in a B17 during a 3+ hour flight?

[Mr_sukebe]

I've seen a number of requests in the last few years for a fully multi-crew heavy bomber (e.g. B17).

My immediate reaction to the idea is "cooor, that's a cool idea".  Then I start thinking it through.

I like being a pilot, but if we were given a multi-crew B17 with say 10 crew slots, then someone is going to have to fill out the rest of the crew slots.  Who really wants to be gunner in say the bottom turret?  

Do bear in mind that this is multi-crew, and being DCS, the pilots are likely to want to start from cold.  So you've going to have 10 mins cold start, taxi out, then as it's not exactly that fast, a min of a 1 hour flight each way to the target.  Along the way, you "might" see an enemy fighter and if so, be genuinely doing something for maybe 5 mins.

 

I could see me doing it, but not very often.  

So my question is, who here would actually want to be a gunner on a multi-crew B17 regularly sitting around for 5 mins combat out of a 3+ hour flight?

Edited October 8, 2022 by Mr_sukebe

[Beirut]

Will the plane have an open bar?

[Mr_sukebe]

Do you have a cup holder next to your rig?

[Exorcet]

4 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

So my question is, who here would actually want to be a gunner on a multi-crew B17 regularly sitting around for 5 mins combat out of a 3+ hour flight?

Go look up DCS online videos. You don't have to fly for 3 hours, so this isn't even really a fair question. Many players prefer content with instant action. It has always been the case and it's one of the reasons why I stopped flying online, it was just too difficult to find those 3 hours of flying - 5 minutes of action missions that I'm totally fine with.

[Beirut]

7 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

Do you have a cup holder next to your rig?

 

Of course. I always fly liquified. Tea, coffee, or bourbon. But never nothing. 

 

But I don't see why it has to be a three-hour flight. The flight can be exactly as short or as long as you want it to be. 

[Mr_sukebe]

1 minute ago, Beirut said:

But I don't see why it has to be a three-hour flight. The flight can be exactly as short or as long as you want it to be. 

 

A fair point.  After all, I'm just applying my own thoughts/expectations on how I see it playing out.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we shouldn't do this, rather that I don't understand the "use case".

So imagine you wanted to go full multiplayer, with 10 people in a single B17.  How do you see that working?

[Beirut]

14 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

 

A fair point.  After all, I'm just applying my own thoughts/expectations on how I see it playing out.

 

I think the important thing is that we fly as we enjoy flying. To each their own.

 

14 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we shouldn't do this, rather that I don't understand the "use case".

So imagine you wanted to go full multiplayer, with 10 people in a single B17.  How do you see that working?

 

Lots of F-bombs on the intercom.  

 

I can't imagine getting ten people to MP in a single plane. That's beyond my experience. I wouldn't think it's really feasible, not beyond a trial run just for the hell of it. 

 

A pilot and co-pilot, each able to change stations, maybe do some gunning, that would seem more workable.

[Mars Exulte]

On 10/8/2022 at 4:00 PM, Mr_sukebe said:

So imagine you wanted to go full multiplayer, with 10 people in a single B17.  How do you see that working?

  You can't reliably get a copilot/gunner in the other modules. You think you're going to get 10? You're literally going to need to have a clan dedicated to crewimg a single B-17 taking turns on who gets to be pilot. If you try to rando it... well... we all know how that would go. 3 guys join, ones a noob, the other two are trolls that jettison your bombs and shoot off all the ammo.

[Nodak]

I was a simulant crewman on a BORING B-17.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Nodak

[Lace]

The solution for the larger multi-crew aircraft is dynamic switching of positions.  That way, you can play an active role in each part of the mission.  Start-up, taxi, takeoff and form up as pilot, transit from the navigator seat, bomb the target from the bombardier position, hop between gun turrets as you are bounced, back to the navigator to get you home, and finally return to the pilot for landing.  If you have multiple clients in the same aircraft, then you can occupy any of the vacant positions, and if you want to spend 3hrs+ as a waist gunner, then you can, the remaining positions will be AI controlled.  Let's face it, it would be fairly boring as a pilot for the long missions, as you are essentially just formation flying the whole time.  I don't think there is any single position I'd like to occupy for the whole flight, but the ability to swap seats could make it a entertaining experience.  Microprose managed it in 1992, I'm sure ED could make it work if they wanted to.

[Mars Exulte]

It's still an awful lot of work for something that will be barely utilised by the community. Realistically, any more than two people is impractical and unnecessary. Three tops, depending on circumstances.

[Willie Nelson]

4 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

It's still an awful lot of work for something that will be barely utilised by the community. Realistically, any more than two people is impractical and unnecessary. Three tops, depending on circumstances.

I suspect you’re correct but who knows. I never though Snapchat would be a thing…….who knew! 

[NoJoy]

On 10/11/2022 at 4:51 PM, Lace said:

Microprose managed it in 1992

This! SWOTL did a phantastic job ages ago!

[Lace]

Just now, NoJoy said:

This! SWOTL did a phantastic job ages ago!

SWOTL was great.  FF ME-163 please!

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

There are dude’s who spend hours, literally hours sitting behind the yolk of a FedEx simulated 7?7. Playing airplane pilot. You would be surprised at how little folks have to do sometimes. I had an associate actually take a vacation day because he “had to cover” for another “pilot”. 
To each their own I guess but would hope the developers had better priorities. 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Mr. Big.Biggs

[-0303-]

On 10/8/2022 at 10:39 PM, Mr_sukebe said:

Do bear in mind that this is multi-crew, and being DCS, the pilots are likely to want to start from cold.  So you've going to have 10 mins cold start, taxi out, then as it's not exactly that fast, a min of a 1 hour flight each way to the target.  Along the way, you "might" see an enemy fighter and if so, be genuinely doing something for maybe 5 mins.

 

I could see me doing it, but not very often.  

So my question is, who here would actually want to be a gunner on a multi-crew B17 regularly sitting around for 5 mins combat out of a 3+ hour flight?

 

I did that. Ca 1998. A game called "Warbirds". Once or twice a month there were multi hour "scenarios". Reenactments of Europe or Pacific historic missions. The most looked forward to and popular events. But things were different.

It was a tight nit community. Everybody posted to the same forum. DCS is much more splintered. During the long "dead times" everybody text chatted on a common channel. Half the entertainment was the chatting. Late summer: "It's an August Event".

Game was arcadish. Admittedly gunner positions were seldom all filled, though that happened but most were in fighters. Between 30 - 200 people showed up. There would be too few bombers if all gunner positions were filled so choice was almost always, less gunners, more bombers. The bombers typically only had pilots except for one or two persons who wanted to be gunners. A few scenarios scripted that bombers must have gunners. I took part in an all bombers must have all gunners mission maybe half a dozen times over three years.

Very useful,  player could teleport between positions. From pilot to rear gunner for example. This is required for game play because it will seldom to never be enough people.

 

I think it would be a huge investment for DCS to develop a bombers with all positions. Not one but 10 different "clickable" cockpits. It would be an expensive module. Some of the faithful would buy it. It would not be used very often. An active enthusiastic  forum for discussing Missions / Scenarios to would be needed if it were to be used with any regularity. Just a thread in "Western Europe" forum  would not be enough.

Edited October 16, 2022 by -0303-

[Mainstay]

I think we are forgetting a crucial part in interaction between the crew on intercom. 
 

I played a lot of ARMA in a hardcore milsim community back in the day and some operations we didn’t make contact with the enemy at all during multiple hour sessions. But the fun we had among the men was priceless even though everyone was playing his role seriously 

[Lace]

On 10/13/2022 at 2:40 PM, Mr. Big.Biggs said:

There are dude’s who spend hours, literally hours sitting behind the yolk of a FedEx simulated 7?7

 

I think you are eggs-aggerating there.

[One Eyed Ross]

And here I am hoping to get an A-6 Intruder to fly....(with a real cockpit, not the VSN mod that is great for AI).

[Hobel]

I don't know why there is always talk of hours, of course who wants to be super realistic can gladly do that.

On common MP WW2 PvP servers they would reach almost any target in 30min-1h with a bomber.
As a Gunner still not very attractive but at least better and you can also get in or out at any time.

in other sims/games at least bombers are very popular to fly.

[Marklar]

There are people who do transatlantic flights in MSFS which last for 6-9h. After they take off and hit AP button there is nothing to do for 95% of the flight. I think you would find a few people in DCS who would like to man a gun in B17 for an hour or two.

[Raisuli]

Well...if he was still around I could ask my dad.  B-24 rather than B-17, but he spent forever in the nose turret.  Couldn't even move around, because when he did air got between the turret and fuselage and the wind up in the nose section was unpleasant.  His backup position was ball turret, but on the B-24 those were retractable.

It was possible to get in and out; he did takeoffs and landings just forward of the bomb bay.

Then again, returning from a mission and 'not having to do anything' was a bonus.  The other guys tended to do head-on passes; pilots, bombardier, and nose gunner were first up!  There is such a thing as too much realism, like when the bullet-proof glass in the turret was so shot up you couldn't see to aim, so you pull the pins and push it out of the way...

To answer the question the only way I've seen that actually work it was possible to join the aircraft in mid-flight, so when the pilot needed gunners they could magically appear.  'Game' play does require some compromises.  When I'm flying auto-pilot for potentially hours I get up and move about the aircraft.  Take a nap.  Read a book.  Cook dinner out on the grill.  The normal things you do in aircraft.

[Dogmanbird]

I reckon this would be great fun, if as Raisuli described, there was a way to join mid flight. Ideally if the multiplayer role selection page could show either the planes current location, or allow the pilot or other crew member to somehow send out a request at a critical time? 

I guess if someone could setup a discord channel that gunners could monitor, ready for jumping in, that may work?

Edited October 27, 2022 by Dogmanbird

[Scott-S6]

On 10/8/2022 at 9:43 PM, Mr_sukebe said:

Do you have a cup holder next to your rig?

I have TWO cupholders.

[Stearmandriver]

In IL-2 gunners can jump in and out at will, mid-flight.  Just find a bomber nearing a target area with an open gun slot, and in you jump.