reported earlier AIM-120 can still be defeated by barrel rolls at high altitudes

[Aquorys]

34 minutes ago, Rhayvn said:

Are your targets jamming?

They were not, although the MiG-29S would be capable of jamming.

35 minutes ago, Rhayvn said:

Not really.  It [the launch by target threat estimate setting] still means they hold shots longer in some cases rather than always making use of their range.

The context was: in comparison to "Random between min and max range", which is... well... random.

37 minutes ago, Rhayvn said:

Descent is to counter incoming missiles. Even with descending, you will often have a fairly narrow window between an ER hitting you and your missile going active.

Yes, I know some YouTube channels like Growling Sidewinder, Grim Reapers, etc. "teach" this, but it's quite nonsensical tactics in most cases. It's ok as a last resort, but if it is the go-to option, then it often indicates prior tactical errors in the attack and/or defense geometry.

51 minutes ago, Rhayvn said:

The AI always does this, so the AI vs. AI tests, it wasn't something that could be controlled.

The AI does a lot of funny things, and it also dies a lot doing funny things.

52 minutes ago, Rhayvn said:

If you have tacview files, I would be interested in viewing them.

Bad luck, they're in and out of the trash already.

[Rhayvn]

1 hour ago, Aquorys said:

Yes, I know some YouTube channels like Growling Sidewinder, Grim Reapers, etc. "teach" this, but it's quite nonsensical tactics in most cases. It's ok as a last resort, but if it is the go-to option, then it often indicates prior tactical errors in the attack and/or defense geometry.

Why do you think it's nonsensical?  I am not talking in this thread about bullying opponents you outrange so badly you can basically ignore any potential return fire.

On not permitting the 29S to use their jammer, why are you artificially limiting their capabilities?

[Aquorys]

8 hours ago, Rhayvn said:

Why do you think it's nonsensical?  I am not talking in this thread about bullying opponents you outrange so badly you can basically ignore any potential return fire.

Ballistics and potential energy. Your opponent being low and you being high shifts the range advantage in your favor, and if you have to defend, you have a lot of potential energy (altitude) that you can trade for speed. The nonsensical part is not necessarily diving, but staying low instead of regaining altitude typically qualifies.

8 hours ago, Rhayvn said:

On not permitting the 29S to use their jammer, why are you artificially limiting their capabilities?

I did not actively do anything to prevent it from using it. I was expecting that the MiG would use its jammer, I don't know why it did not.

[DukeAngus]

the issue for me with the 120's this update is after the first shot is trashed, when  in closer range and lower altitudes. when im not quite in sidewinder range and the bandit is moving horizontally. usually i will be in a stt lock and it seems as if the missile doesnt follow the correct flight path for an intercept.   pre-update when the missile would launch off the rails it would immediately turn and start pulling lead. i will upload files when i get home from work.

 

when the bandits running from you at what range  do you need to be at to be in wez for the 120 ? say the bandits on your 12  your on its 6 say going the same speed.

 

in regards to the 29 and jamming when flying the f-16 the mig would jam and i couldn't get solid lock until 20-30 miles depending on my altitude compared it its.  with the f-15 i could get up to twice as far. plus it also depend on if your in rws or tws when you lock the target whether the 29 tries to jam at all

[Rhayvn]

7 hours ago, Aquorys said:

Ballistics and potential energy. Your opponent being low and you being high shifts the range advantage in your favor, and if you have to defend, you have a lot of potential energy (altitude) that you can trade for speed. The nonsensical part is not necessarily diving, but staying low instead of regaining altitude typically qualifies.

It's only part of defending against an incoming or potential incoming (Fox 3) missile.  You definitely don't go lower than necessary and don't stay there unless you are using terrain masking to negate a range (Or other) disadvantage.  It's highly dependent on what missile you are facing.  Some will intercept you before your shot forces your target defensive, some will not.  Fox3s don't care if your target is defensive, only how much energy they have left when you -start- to defend.  Early enough and they aren't dangerous.  I find it better to err on the side of caution.  All that is just 1v1 too.  In general, I find that (Blue vs Red) the closer you let the AI get, the more you give away your advantages.

For the jamming, it's a setting in the ME with multiple options.  Detected or Locked is the option I prefer as they will use it to mitigate ranges while also leaving it off for stealth if nothing is painting them.  If you set it for Locked only, they tend to not use it until far too late because most Blue engagements are in TWS.

[Rhayvn]

On 12/19/2022 at 1:15 AM, Маэстро said:

If your goal is to have bugs fixed it would be better to add several tracks instead of quips.
(Yes, we need exactly your tracks(not acmi) to run them under debugger and see that happens in every single case)

Multiple track files have been provided.  Can we get some sort of response?  I have an entire group of people losing motivation for DCS due to the incredibly poor reliability of the 120s.

I just reviewed two separate trackview files of the group over the last two days and there were 3 hits out of over 20, 120 launches.  SM-2 and Hawks are not showing the issue, so it is definitely a 120 problem.  All the target has to do is be low and roll.  Please don't claim that your fix for barrel rolling targets didn't cause this nearly identical issue, that didn't exist against AI prior to the patch.

[Terzi]

The most widely used missile in the game has a never ending story.. I am wondering is it really that hard to fix the AIM-120.

I have also experienced same issues. While waiting for almost guaranteed kills in MP, I missed so many shots. Not only a high altitude problem as discussed here. Then we tried it against SU-27 AI, SU-30 AI. The missile will sometimes just pass by the enemy while still having good energy.

[Маэстро]

7 hours ago, Rhayvn said:

Multiple track files have been provided.  Can we get some sort of response?  I have an entire group of people losing motivation for DCS due to the incredibly poor reliability of the 120s.

I just reviewed two separate trackview files of the group over the last two days and there were 3 hits out of over 20, 120 launches.  SM-2 and Hawks are not showing the issue, so it is definitely a 120 problem.  All the target has to do is be low and roll.  Please don't claim that your fix for barrel rolling targets didn't cause this nearly identical issue, that didn't exist against AI prior to the patch.

There is one problem - tracks you have attached made on Falklands. Unfortunately, I have no enough disk space to download this terrain. Could you make a couple of tracks using caucasus terrain?

7 hours ago, Rhayvn said:

 SM-2 and Hawks are not showing the issue, so it is definitely a 120 problem.  All the target has to do is be low and roll.  Please don't claim that your fix for barrel rolling targets didn't cause this nearly identical issue, that didn't exist against AI prior to the patch.

Sorry, but I will claim this. Because there is no any raltion between guidance accuracy in very specific conditions(which was improved a bit) and poor tracking issue you've reported. The only thing which theoretically may cause some tracking issue is "HOJ mode twitching" fix, but it's may appear only if target jamming. 

Anyway guessing is that aim-120 issue or not is pointless without usable tracks I'll be able to run under debugger.

[Маэстро]

BTW, just watched all 4 tracks on colleague's computer and it looks like they do not play correct. I see miss only in one track, but it happened due to low terminal speed.

[Default774]

5 hours ago, Маэстро said:

The only thing which theoretically may cause some tracking issue is "HOJ mode twitching" fix, but it's may appear only if target jamming. 

The issue seems to be HOJ terminal guidance. Test setup: sea level head on, AI set to NEZ launch range.

Amraams fired in NEZ can be defeated by a high G cold turn as long as the target is jamming while manoeuvring. Compare this to the guidance on a non jamming target and the missile hits every time. 

120_hoj_hg_2.acmi 120_hoj_hg_1.acmi 120_hoj_NOJAMMING.acmi 120_hoj_hg_1.trk 120_hoj_hg_2.trk 120_hoj_NOJAMMING.trk

[Маэстро]

1 minute ago, Default774 said:

The issue seems to be HOJ terminal guidance. Test setup: sea level head on, AI set to NEZ launch range.

Amraams fired in NEZ can be defeated by a high G cold turn as long as the target is jamming while manoeuvring. Compare this to the guidance on a non jamming target and the missile hits every time. 

120_hoj_hg_2.acmi 29.02 kB · 0 downloads 120_hoj_hg_1.acmi 34.96 kB · 0 downloads 120_hoj_NOJAMMING.acmi 26.47 kB · 0 downloads 120_hoj_hg_1.trk 87.04 kB · 0 downloads 120_hoj_hg_2.trk 74.62 kB · 0 downloads 120_hoj_NOJAMMING.trk 74.95 kB · 0 downloads

Yes, but problems with hitting high-g jaming tagets is intdened and caused by simple fact that missile can not measure closing velocity and range. The only thing to discuss is the level of this "issue".

In falklands tracks targets do not use ECM, so that's not the reason.

[Rhayvn]

Caucasus.  SU-27

Tacview-P16-27-CA.zip.acmi P16-27-CA.trk

[Mad_Shell]

4 hours ago, Маэстро said:

Yes, but problems with hitting high-g jaming tagets is intdened and caused by simple fact that missile can not measure closing velocity and range. The only thing to discuss is the level of this "issue".

In falklands tracks targets do not use ECM, so that's not the reason.

Wait, you mean that as soon as a target is jamming, the AMRAAM uses hoj mode only? And won't ever try to use active seeker? 

[Moonshine]

and what about STT? shouldnt there be a burnthrough? at close ranges a jammer should be a disadvantage rather than an advantage as it makes you a huge target...

Edited December 21, 2022 by Moonshine

[Rhayvn]

7 hours ago, Default774 said:

The issue seems to be HOJ terminal guidance. Test setup: sea level head on, AI set to NEZ launch range.

Seconding this.  Disabling the jamming greatly reduces the problem for the same aircraft and AI level.  Though it does not eliminate it.  Some missiles still track poorly in terminal.

Again, this is very different that it was prior to the patch.

[Default774]

Comparison between the AI being set to always jamming and not allowed to jam, 120s seem practically useless against jamming targets manoeuvring in a certain manner.

ai_hoj1.acmi ai_nohoj1.acmi ai_hoj1.trk ai_nohoj1.trk

[Маэстро]

16 hours ago, Default774 said:

Comparison between the AI being set to always jamming and not allowed to jam, 120s seem practically useless against jamming targets manoeuvring in a certain manner.

Yes, it's the same behaviour as in last Rhayvn track. Will be readjusted. Missile definitely should be more agile in such cases.

On 12/21/2022 at 11:28 PM, Rhayvn said:

Caucasus.  SU-27

Thanks, but I do not see there initial issue you have described. All missiles except first one miss due to target jamming. First missile miss due to lack of energy.
All your previous tracks demonstarte long range shoots against maneuvering targets which do not use ECM. In these tracks misilies approch target with low speed. Unfortunately, I can not say that exactly happens because tracks plays different on my end, but it seems to me at the moment that there is rather difference in AI behaviour(as was already supposed above) than missile issue. If you again will see the same behaviour with long range shots please attach new tracks here.

[Rhayvn]

17 hours ago, Маэстро said:

Yes, it's the same behaviour as in last Rhayvn track. Will be readjusted. Missile definitely should be more agile in such cases.

Thanks, but I do not see there initial issue you have described. All missiles except first one miss due to target jamming. First missile miss due to lack of energy.
All your previous tracks demonstarte long range shoots against maneuvering targets which do not use ECM. In these tracks misilies approch target with low speed. Unfortunately, I can not say that exactly happens because tracks plays different on my end, but it seems to me at the moment that there is rather difference in AI behaviour(as was already supposed above) than missile issue. If you again will see the same behaviour with long range shots please attach new tracks here.

Any track I posted with an SU-27, Mig29S or Mirage-2000, they are jamming.  If your replay does not show that they are jamming, then that is part of the problem with you trying to re-create the misses.

[Mediocre_Chaos]

Whatever was done in the last update has caused the AIM-120 to go stupid against any jamming target during the terminal phase right before impact, causing the missile to miss by what looks like feet every single time. I watched 10 120's (B's & C's) miss in the manner on a multiplayer server against a Su-27 that was flashing his jammer. Whatever was done in the last update needs to be rolled back. These should have been hits as jamming inside that range will have no effect as the missile's radar will burn through any jamming.

[falcon_120]

I love how two years of "AIM-120 rework" have literally done nothing to improve the missile and fix all the bugs. 

They will never fix all the bugs because in cases like this there are no bugs to fix, just never ending tuning of made up assumptions of what the effect of jamming should be on modern ARHs like the aim120, and no one knows for sure, not even Raytheon engineers cause they have not tested it in wars against other nation jammers, not at least in any meaningful sample.

We just need to arrive to a state where all parties feels missiles are behaving "good enough" whatever that means. So I feel sorry for ED on this cause I don't see how to make everyone happy

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[TheFreshPrince]

I think before one of the latest patches it was pretty okay. It just has to be between "the missile doesn't know where it is" and "the missile always knows where it is".

[SchumiF399]

AIM 120s are definitely broken against jamming targets. Small tacview attached between myself (BLOWN HEAD GASKET) and another random player (ARTAX) .  First launch at 8.55 NM, mach 1.81 and missile goes stupid as do the next 2 amraams. Had to resort to Aim 9x to get the kill. ED please have a look at this.

Tacview-20230109-175220-DCS.zip.acmi

[Fropa]

I would amend this to say that any target performing any high G maneuver, especially in a look-down shoot-down scenario, automatically defeats the AIM-120. This is 100% reproducible in the multiplayer PVP environment. I would provide a track, but the 50mb upload limit makes that impossible for multiplayer tracks. Fortunately, it's not hard to hop on a multiplayer PVP server and see for yourself. Please fix this ASAP as this makes BVR, and especially WVR, with the AMRAAM practically impossible. Thank you.

[Wolf1One]

2 hours ago, Fropa said:

I would amend this to say that any target performing any high G maneuver, especially in a look-down shoot-down scenario, automatically defeats the AIM-120. This is 100% reproducible in the multiplayer PVP environment. I would provide a track, but the 50mb upload limit makes that impossible for multiplayer tracks. Fortunately, it's not hard to hop on a multiplayer PVP server and see for yourself. Please fix this ASAP as this makes BVR, and especially WVR, with the AMRAAM practically impossible. Thank you.

I'm flying the F16 on GS and I'm getting my teeth kicked in by FC3 aircraft because the amraam is so bad... It never worked properly but in the past you could at least hit something with it. Nowadays everybody on multiplayer PVP knows how to notch it and render it useless. Being forced to rely on AIM9Xs is frustrating, especially against an aircraft capable of shooting a R27ET from farther away.

[Exorcet]

Are missiles still tracking the cockpit instead of the center of mass? That will probably exacerbate the roll issue.