DCS Newsletter discussion 17th February 2023 - RAZBAM F-15E Pre-order

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, Mars Exulte said:

 I think it's really funny that you complain about me ''making up numbers'', which I literally haven't done anywhere in any of this, while doing so yourself and in your own example proposing numbers that would absolutely be relevant to making financial decisions.

FYI, I only "made up" (not really, I really have another major city about 1h away if you take the highway) those numbers to illustrate different things look in Europe. The point was that in my country, nobody would take seriously a proposition to take a taxi for a 1h drive. I know that in your country, with cheap gas and way too much road to burn it on, it does work that way, but not here. 

1 hour ago, Mars Exulte said:

  Yep, very true. Also completely irrelevant unless they also make up significant numbers of DCS purchasers.

How do you know they don't? I'm pretty sure they do, there's a lot of international players around here, and Chinese in particular don't show up on English language forums often because of language barrier. There's a lot of Chinese, it's a really big market. ED had done the store the way they did because they're flight sim devs and not web devs, and quite frankly, their website, their launcher and their flaky servers demonstrate that perfectly well. In fact, you can see how bad they are at this by looking at how bad this forum looks, and how badly the English section is organized. Going on Steam likely allowed them to get away with all that, because Steam, for all the money it takes, is a vastly superior platform, and has literally none of the issues that plague ED-run sites.

All this was to make a point that your dissing of Steam users and telling them to move to e-shop is ignorant and insulting. You have no idea about conditions that make Steam not only the best choice in many places, but the only sensible choice. You're just another Privileged American Guy who thinks what holds true in his state holds true for the entire world. As far as business goes, I'm pretty sure both ED and RAZBAM are losing money here. Companies routinely underestimate the monetary value of not pissing off your customers. Also, they had a big, hyped-up release party, and they're not going to be able to do that again. By the time it goes into EA, I'm pretty sure the Steam part of the community will have moved onto the next toy in the pipeline. Unless they can keep up the hype, the next time many people on Steam will look at it is when it goes on sale.

[Cab]

On 2/18/2023 at 2:48 AM, cloose said:

I just hope that other 3rd party developers will not follow this trend. In my opinion all customers should be treated equally and have similar access to Pre-orders/EAs/discounts. Or otherwise ED and 3rd parties should stop selling via Steam. Feeling like a second class citizen here.

 

Stop selling via Steam because you don’t get to save $8? Maybe you should consult with the rest of the Stream players.

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Also, they had a big, hyped-up release party, and they're not going to be able to do that again. By the time it goes into EA, I'm pretty sure the Steam part of the community will have moved onto the next toy in the pipeline. Unless they can keep up the hype, the next time many people on Steam will look at it is when it goes on sale.

 

I'm guessing Heatblur watched the whole thing and came to a wonderful conclusion as to what they will not do.

 

I've got a cold beer that says the Phantom roll out is much smoother.

[Dragon1-1]

That's what I'm hoping, although I suspect they wouldn't have needed that. HB people are much better at this, although admittedly, last time their preorder discount was also much less steep. In fact, depending on how the timeline works out, the Phantom might be the thing everyone on Steam is buying in a few months, as opposed to the Mudhen. TBH, I'm looking forward to the Phantom more, the Mudhen will eventually get a great SP campaign by BD, as is RAZBAM's tradition, but until that's in, it's not a priority for me. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Dragon1-1

[freehand]

22 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

I'm guessing Heatblur watched the whole thing and came to a wonderful conclusion as to what they will not do.

 

I've got a cold beer that says the Phantom roll out is much smoother.

I personaly do not give 2 <profanity>s what HB think.

[Beirut]

52 minutes ago, freehand said:

I personaly do not give 2 <profanity>s what HB think.

 

Perhaps not 2, but at least 1, otherwise you would have let it pass.

 

I care about what HB thinks insofar as they produce excellent planes and provide quality updates. If they do great work and treat the customers well, I think that's good all around.

[Gierasimov]

... and it's only Tuesday guys! 

Can't wait to see this week's newsletter to discuss something other than constant fight over platforms and their websites. 

When I saw that comment about how badly ED runs their platform... Geez man, that's well beyond my comprehension of what's that to do with F-15E Strike Eagle. 

Frustrating as it is, suck it up. There has to be a balance in nature so I will not pre order @Dragon1-1, I will buy at full price, that wat you will have more benefit with your Steam purchase. Happy?

I wonder why this thread is still open. 

[ironhard]

8 hours ago, Beirut said:

 

I'm guessing Heatblur watched the whole thing and came to a wonderful conclusion as to what they will not do.

 

I've got a cold beer that says the Phantom roll out is much smoother.

I'm pretty sure that even before all this drama, HB would already make a better job, after all, HB > Razbam, specially in terms of professionality.

Edited February 21, 2023 by ironhard

[draconus]

10 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

ED had done the store the way they did because they're flight sim devs and not web devs, and quite frankly, their website, their launcher and their flaky servers demonstrate that perfectly well. In fact, you can see how bad they are at this by looking at how bad this forum looks, and how badly the English section is organized. Going on Steam likely allowed them to get away with all that, because Steam, for all the money it takes, is a vastly superior platform, and has literally none of the issues that plague ED-run sites.

There's nothing wrong with ED site, store or forum, and Steam being so superior is your own delusion. Whatever bad things you think has happened the F-15E is going to sale great and so it will on Steam too.

10 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

All this was to make a point that your dissing of Steam users and telling them to move to e-shop is ignorant and insulting. You have no idea about conditions that make Steam not only the best choice in many places, but the only sensible choice.

We have nothing against Steam and neither ED does, not even RAZBAM. That the preorder did not take place there is only devs' own business decission. Same with ED miles opt out. You choosing to stay with Steam is only your own choice, and it's fine with us. Get over it finally, we're on page #6, and you still don't get it.

8 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

That's what I'm hoping, although I suspect they wouldn't have needed that. HB people are much better at this, although admittedly, last time their preorder discount was also much less steep. In fact, depending on how the timeline works out, the Phantom might be the thing everyone on Steam is buying in a few months, as opposed to the Mudhen. TBH, I'm looking forward to the Phantom more, the Mudhen will eventually get a great SP campaign by BD, as is RAZBAM's tradition, but until that's in, it's not a priority for me.

Why would you think HB is some kind of charity and would choose to give away their products cheap? They were bashed before by your kind for not taking part in the sales or free to play programs, or giving only small percentages on discounts. They count money too and that's good - otherwise we wouldn't have them around this long.

2 hours ago, Gierasimov said:

I wonder why this thread is still open. 

Don't worry, "Topic will be automatically locked February 24, 2023 at 03:50 PM".

Edited February 21, 2023 by draconus

[BIGNEWY]

As mentioned before, if you do want to use steam its fine by us. 

With that said many of you have given your feedback on the subject, while we appreciate your feedback repeating it isnt going to help. 

thank you

[Dragon1-1]

32 minutes ago, draconus said:

There's nothing wrong with ED site, store or forum, and Steam being so superior is your own delusion. 

So, important threads being buried under four layers of sub-boards is a delusion (Steam forums have one, admittedly they're much less active)? ED forum using IPS-style UI, and everything that's wrong with it, is a delusion (Steam UI also used to be better, but it's not that bad)? ED launcher downloading the whole update to disk before applying it is a delusion (Steam does that piecemeal)? ED store only accepting one currency is a delusion? ED servers having much less throughput is a delusion? I could go on, but I believe I made my point.

37 minutes ago, draconus said:

Why would you think HB is some kind of charity and would choose to give away their products cheap? They were bashed before by your kind for not taking part in the sales or free to play programs, or giving only small percentages on discounts. They count money too and that's good - otherwise we wouldn't have them around this long.

Have you missed the whole bloody point? It's not about a few percent this or that way, it's about not being treated equally. Steam players feel like second class community members, and they don't appreciate it, especially after initially being told the preorder will be on Steam (RAZBAM had released products on Steam before, BTW, so they had all the information they needed to make that call earlier). Well, HB is better than that, if they do take part in a sale, it's for everyone, and while their preorders are typically more expensive, they're also for everyone. It seems that after all those pages, some of your kind still don't get it.

[Gierasimov]

Oh man...

Quote

Steam players feel like second class community members, and they don't appreciate it(...)

Are you seriously a voice of Steam? 

Had I known that I am replying to such persona I would have put my ED cape and recharge my super powers. 

I don't agree with anything you said. 

But it is MY OPINION. Not Standalone users opinion, not a community voice. 

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and feelings. Works for you? Fine! Does the standalone work for me? Fine! Now, do RAZBAM choices work for them? 

Yes, apparently, so? Fine! 

You suck it up that it costs you more on Steam, I suck it up it costs me more via ED shop. Yes! It costs me more than it could have, had RAZBAM opted in to ED Miles program. 

[Art-J]

@Dragon1-1And yet, because of regional pricing being applied to some countries outside USD/EUR zone, even within the Steam itself you will be charged more for the same DCS module than other customers somewhere in different location. Thus "being treated equal" argument is invalid no matter what PC game and if using Steam or not.

The only point of yours that stands is the fact that once RAZBAM posted pre-sale info on their official preferrable channel (Discord), they should stick to it and not make any chaotic last-minute changes, even if they're legally allowed to do so. That just didn't look proffessional. Or they should just make up their mind much earlier and announce it accordingly.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Art-J

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Have you missed the whole bloody point? It's not about a few percent this or that way, it's about not being treated equally. Steam players feel like second class community members, and they don't appreciate it, especially after initially being told the preorder will be on Steam (RAZBAM had released products on Steam before, BTW, so they had all the information they needed to make that call earlier). Well, HB is better than that, if they do take part in a sale, it's for everyone, and while their preorders are typically more expensive, they're also for everyone. It seems that after all those pages, some of your kind still don't get it.

Yes, I don't get it how are you treated differently than me. We have exactly the same options provided by ED and RAZBAM. You as a person are the customer for the devs - not your steam account. Steam is just the store you may prefer that may or may not have the product of said devs for sale. Since it's different store it can also have different prices and rules. It still is your own choice and it's the same choice for everyone.

The info from RAZBAM started with the note "preliminary info, subject to change" which everyone have choosen to ignore.

Edited February 21, 2023 by draconus

[animaal]

Just a quick comment: the pre-order of the F-15E does appear to extend the expiry date of pre-existing miles we have collected. I wasn't sure that would happen when this module is not taking part in the Miles programme.. So thanks!

[Devil 505]

You know what I find ironic about all this noise?  At the end of the day, every single person on this thread will have purchased the F-15E because its an addiction none of us can shake, no matter how much noise we make about the pre sale.  I would be shocked if one person on the last 6 pages did not buy the Strike Eagle to make a point.  You want to know why?  Because everyone else will be buzzing you online day 1 of the launch while you watch from another module.  That is an itch none of us who fly in DCS can resist.  Appreciate the single fact you have a company that is bringing us what we always wanted out of a Strike Eagle.  Presale discounts are a luxury, not a right.  If it released full price on presale, it still would have been a day one buy for me.  And who cares what day the presale falls on for all of us, we all get it at the same time on release.  Think bigger picture ladies and gents and stop convincing yourself RAZBAM and ED do not care about their customers.  If that was the case, we would all be flying War........... wait I probably cannot say that.  

[Dannyvandelft]

You know what I find ironic about all this noise?  At the end of the day, every single person on this thread will have purchased the F-15E because its an addiction none of us can shake, no matter how much noise we make about the pre sale.  I would be shocked if one person on the last 6 pages did not buy the Strike Eagle to make a point.  You want to know why?  Because everyone else will be buzzing you online day 1 of the launch while you watch from another module.  That is an itch none of us who fly in DCS can resist.  Appreciate the single fact you have a company that is bringing us what we always wanted out of a Strike Eagle.  Presale discounts are a luxury, not a right.  If it released full price on presale, it still would have been a day one buy for me.  And who cares what day the presale falls on for all of us, we all get it at the same time on release.  Think bigger picture ladies and gents and stop convincing yourself RAZBAM and ED do not care about their customers.  If that was the case, we would all be flying War........... wait I probably cannot say that.  

Nope. I have not, and will not buy the Strike Eagle. I'm happy to fly my Tomcat until the Phantom gets here.

2023, the year of the Phantom.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[ironhard]

42 minutes ago, Dannyvandelft said:

Nope. I have not, and will not buy the Strike Eagle. I'm happy to fly my Tomcat until the Phantom gets here.

2023, the year of the Phantom.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

It seems we found the hater. Wrong forums for you then, why you posting here anyways?

[Dannyvandelft]

It seems we found the hater. Wrong forums for you then, why you posting here anyways?

Think you've mistaken this for the RAZBAM page.... it's not.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Dragon1-1]

2 hours ago, Devil 505 said:

I would be shocked if one person on the last 6 pages did not buy the Strike Eagle to make a point.  You want to know why?  Because everyone else will be buzzing you online day 1 of the launch while you watch from another module.

One: I'm SP-only. Two: I'll pass, just like on Mirage F1, until it's 30% off and on Steam. Admittedly, lack of SP content early on will make it easier, I haven't flown the Apache much, either, despite preordering it (not helped by SCAS being WIP, making takeoffs difficult), so every time I feel tempted I'll think back to that one.

Phantom gets bought at whatever preorder price HB sets. The Mudhen will have to wait its turn.

[kotor633]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb ironhard:

It seems we found the hater. Wrong forums for you then, why you posting here anyways?

Is this sentence supposed to make you a hater? What kind of utter nonsense is this? I have not and will not buy the F-15E either because I am not interested in it and I have many other good modules in my virtual hangar that appeal to me more (including the AV8B & M2k). So am I a hater too???

[Dragon1-1]

12 hours ago, Art-J said:

@Dragon1-1And yet, because of regional pricing being applied to some countries outside USD/EUR zone, even within the Steam itself you will be charged more for the same DCS module than other customers somewhere in different location. Thus "being treated equal" argument is invalid no matter what PC game and if using Steam or not.

Actually, this is being treated equally, counterintuitive as it may be. Currencies have different purchasing power, 80$ will buy you a lot less in Switzerland than it will in Belarus, even if you buy the exact same thing. This can be quite divorced from the actual exchange rate, currencies are routinely under or overvalued on the market. By accounting for that, Steam's regional pricing is actually more fair, not less, than charging everyone the same flat price in USD, even discounting the fact that paying in a foreign currency can be subject to extra fees and taxes. Steam's regional pricing isn't perfect, but it's a lot more equal than forcing everyone onto a single price in a single currency. This is also good for business, something priced fairly in USD will be overpriced for someone paying in a weaker currency, and underpriced for someone paying in one of the few stronger ones.

[Beirut]

9 hours ago, Devil 505 said:

You know what I find ironic about all this noise?  At the end of the day, every single person on this thread will have purchased the F-15E . . . 

 

Of course I will buy the F-15E. I'm sure it will be an excellent plane and a ton of fun. I have several RazBam products, purchased on Steam, and I'm very happy with them and the updates they get. But that does not negate the fact that RazBam could have treated the Steam base with a bit more courtesy this time.

 

The two things are not mutually exclusive.

[Baco]

Exactly Steam puts a localized price where a DCS module costs two weeks food on the table. In some paces 8 bucks is a weeks full salary. You might say meh too bad for them, but then again you lose market and player base.

I dont care at all for the F-15 will not get it, but I fail to see it as a Razbam thing, I got South Atlantic on Steam the day it was released....

By the way HB is not the PRO any more, lacking the F-14 135-GR early after TWO years.. no plans for the Ai fighter for the Viggen either, and don´t get me started on the A-6... more Hype Train or as we say, SMOKE... now the new shiny toy the Eurofighter took their place and yeah the Land phantom... will have to wait till 2025 for an naval F-4.. the three other Forrestal class? so yeah lots of false promises too...

 

So no Developer is perfect nor flawless... Lets take what we get as we get it and make our choices.. the rest is just whining or fanboying

By the way I got almost every module one way or another (Meaning ED store and Steam keys) and I am a "customer" (fan) since 1997 (Flanker 1.5)

Edited February 22, 2023 by Baco

[sthompson]

9 hours ago, Devil 505 said:

You know what I find ironic about all this noise?  At the end of the day, every single person on this thread will have purchased the F-15E because its an addiction none of us can shake, no matter how much noise we make about the pre sale.  I would be shocked if one person on the last 6 pages did not buy the Strike Eagle to make a point.

You would be wrong.