New better free Plane(s)

[Migratingcoconut]

First off, I know I'm going after sort of low hanging fruit here with this suggestion since I would agree that the free plane(s) are not really what should be the highest priority compared to the core free content that ED is ramping up and focusing on.

Now that we have the demo system where you can try most of the paid modules out for two weeks per half year, I figure most wouldn't consider a new free plane at all, but I beg to differ. I think there is still something to be done with this concept.

Most of what I bring up will be centered around the new user experience as that is what I believe to be the more relevant perspective to grasp here, and unfortunately, it is hard to poll the applicable audience (new users & those who decided after checking out the base game not to pursue it). It would be great if we could poll both to figure out how to improve the base game, but I'll just use my imagination as someone who fits into neither category.
 

The free birds

I figure the idea with the two free planes was/is: Give new users something to play with which does not detract from the selling-point of the paid modules while still offering enough to entice those who want the challenge which the authenticity of paid modules presents. So in my mind (and I could just be getting a wrong read on things here) what justifies a module being free is that it is removed enough from the paid-experience while giving enough of a piece of the pie so as to scratch that itch if it's there to be scratched. If it's not there, then people who should get turned away do get turned away, right? Basically the way they can still result in a net gain is they must wet the appetite of potential customers without satisfying them too much, since they must function as a demo and not the whole product.

Even if I am wrong about that being the reason for why they were added, I still think that is the right philosophy when it comes to free planes in DCS. This thread is essentially suggesting this idea be embraced as a base premise, and I'll get to how I think this would best be accomplished in a bit.

So, the issue:

Both the TF-51 and Su-25T in my opinion do not work well at this. What I have to say is easiest stated in an analogy: If DCS is a pie, it has to have the pastry & the filling. The pastry is the immersive flying aspect of the sim, and the filling is the combat aspect of its gameplay. In order for free planes in DCS to entice people to eat more of the pie, they need to taste like the pie. In order to taste like the pie, they must have both the pastry and the filling. In my opinion neither do, but rather one (TF-51) is like eating just pastry, and the other (Su-25T) is like eating only the filling.

Neither represent most of the paid modules, and this problem is even better illustrated if we go by what modules are most popular; they reflect the two free planes even less. In essence, the two free planes are too far removed from the paid-experience in concept that I fear they may be turning people away from the paid modules unnecessarily. Someone will fire up the TF-51 and be like: wow this one is too hard and ungainly.' Then they get in the SU-25T and are like: 'Well this is like a game; not what I'm  really looking for.' What evidently sells best are the planes which are fairly easy to learn to fly (like jets vs props) but have all the immersive minutia that add up as well as many combat roles to keep people happy with them. My issue gets down to the fact that no matter how much time you spend in the two, you do not get a real DCS experience-they fail to demo DCS correctly.

So, what about the fact that FC3 is a thing?

Well, it is, and some people do prefer that experience to the full fidelity stuff, but definetly not most.
 

What about the trials then? Don't they kind of nullify the concept being suggested here?

Probably not due to the fact that steam users don't get to enjoy this, but perhaps when/if that is fixed it may well do so.
Still, one will not be able to develop proficiency with any module in the time frame allotted by this system which is the only real advantage of a new free plane from the user perspective.
For ED however, the benefits are greater I think. Like how advertising DCS as a free to play full-fidelity combat sim will carry much more weight to it in light of the pie analogy, and I think that is significant. Free-to-play doesn't mean demos. The demo is mostly there to help people decide which plane they want if they are already planning on putting money into the game. Adding a new free plane which offers a proper permanent demo long term can grow on people in ways the demo system cannot, even if every user had access to it.
I am not saying I think the demo doesn't make new customers, though, as I am certain it does. What I am getting at is that I suspect adding something more permanent will attract enough people to offset the cost of developing the free module in question. But it has to be very specific to not cause problems, and this is very important given what I said earlier about the 'wetting' of appetetites.
 

So what would make a better candidate for a free plane/free planes?

So, my suggestion is first that only one plane be added to test the concept, then if the results are good for ED, as the game grows, add another free plane only once the era they represent becomes the vogue, and never before. It may look like: start with one, then in like 2 years one more, then maybe a third years later. Nothing super duper drastic or draining on their resources.

Now for deciding on what plane first:
I think it would be best not to invest an ungainly amount of resources into anything which certainly won't directly make more $ and will be difficult to verify when it comes to any potential indirect financial effects which come after implementation. One thing is for sure, I think; it would, no matter what it is, bring more people into DCS at the very least.

It would need to be a plane which in development terms is not an ambitious project (like the F/A-18C or C-130J). This means no new groundbreaking features that ED is not already working on in their current efforts to improve the core game.

It must necessarily still be removed from the paid experience, just not in a way that the current free birds are, like I said. This new approach should come in the form of a full fidelity plane which can only do a low amount combat roles and be limited at those few it can fullfill at all. This is the 'narrow slice of the pie'. An aircraft which can 'do it all' like the A-4 Skyhawk mode (air to air, air to ground, lots of potential roles) are probably also naturally always going to be difficult and costly projects, and I would be concerned that they might detract from some paid modules.

The era I am considering is the most popular one which is modern era.
Therefore my current top suggestion for a free plane is this:

The F-117A has already been requested at least twice in this forum, so I won't go on and on about it in detail here.

It fulfills all of my criteria with the only potential exception being: 'no new groundbreaking features that ED is not already working on in their current efforts to improve the core game'. This is because (maybe outdated info on my part) stealth is not really simulated in a realistic fashion yet, and they would have to develop that part of the core game which would affect every other plane in the game.
Thing is, I am sure they are getting around to that as I don't see why they would just leave something so essential to the game like radar signatures in this current state given that IR signatures are getting revamped and who doesn't sure radar in this game? So perhaps this will end up being a boon, as the F-117A might be the best way to get around to revamping that part of the game and would provide a great test to said features rather well.

I do firmly believe that the F-117A specifically would be a good investment long term (if simulating stealth is not a massive hurdle, which, it may still be idk), since it is so niche in its role that it will not steal the thunder from any paid module that is out, in development, or even planned. All while introducing people to modern avionics of military aircraft.

As for any other free planes afterwards, they must fit similar criteria, limited but very demonstrative of what DCS does best.

 

If you agree with my premise, which do you think should be added if not the F-117A?
If you disagree with my premise, what do you think would be a better way to bring people into the paid full-fidelity modules?

EDIT 3-5-23: Clarification: I know I can't know how feasible my suggestion truly is. The point is: If this does hold water, ED will never know if they don't look into it, which is why I started this thread. They might just say 'no it's not possible' and in that case they lose nothing by analyzing it.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Migratingcoconut
Please, don't get the false idea that I'm suggesting ED risk bankrupting themselves.

[FalcoGer]

They have announced an A4 module. That would make a good candidate because the existing A4 mod already is exceptionally well done in all terms that matter, that is flight model, systems, weapons and graphics and it comes with the hands down best kneeboard as a bonus. Such a kneeboard should be included with all aircraft in my opinion.

If they ask for money for the A4, I personally don't see any incentive to buy it over the existing mod, especially since it's already fleshed out and established so well. It also falls in that era of 3rd gen jets and early computerization that should be relatively simple to model, at least compared to highly complex aircraft like the F/A-18C.

If you just want a free, high fidelity and high quality aircraft, the A4-E community mod is worth a try and it's very fun to use, too.

[Migratingcoconut]

I completely forgot about that, yeah it basically is just that. Where did they announce it? I don't remember seeing it on the news updates.

[SkateZilla]

Honestly, 

It wouldn't make sense to develop a Full Fidelity Aircraft and give it away for free to everyone, there's no guarantee it would bring in more players and more sales of other Aircraft, while removing any potential sales of the aircraft that is now free.

Any 3rd and 4th Generation Aircraft is complex and takes time and money to develop, those resources for ED are likely better spent on continued MT, Vulkan, DC, and other Core technologies. and for the 3rd parties, better spent on supporting their own projects.

If Full Fidelity aircraft leading to a purchase is the sole argument, then that's what the 2 week trial option is for.

3 hours ago, FalcoGer said:

They have announced an A4 module. That would make a good candidate because the existing A4 mod already is exceptionally well done in all terms that matter, that is flight model, systems, weapons and graphics and it comes with the hands down best kneeboard as a bonus. Such a kneeboard should be included with all aircraft in my opinion.

If they ask for money for the A4, I personally don't see any incentive to buy it over the existing mod, especially since it's already fleshed out and established so well. It also falls in that era of 3rd gen jets and early computerization that should be relatively simple to model, at least compared to highly complex aircraft like the F/A-18C.

If you just want a free, high fidelity and high quality aircraft, the A4-E community mod is worth a try and it's very fun to use, too.

There is no Official A-4 Module in development.

[cfrag]

Apologies, I believe that your heart is in the right place, but I feel that this 'poll' is terminally marred as the answers pretty much boil down to "people will always think that more is better, and more free stuff is better still". Please allow me to critically examine your questions and add my own opinion:

• Did flying the SU-25T or TF-51 factor into your decision to buy any modules at all
  The answer is always "yes" - because they are every person's first contact with DCS. So the Su25T or TF51 will always factor in in some way, this is a "null" question, we know the answer, and it is not interesting. The answer is "yes". And you do not ask the most relevant question: "did you like the experience?". Considering the target audience (this forum of enthusiastic fans), the answer is also not interesting, as it's answer boils down to "It didn't scare me enough to not become a rabid DCS fan".  
   
• Would adding a new full fidelity plane that has combat capability be an overall benefit to DCS
  You unfortunately omit any details as to what you mean by 'benefit' - the user or vendor? My short answer would be: "a potential pitfall for new players, and exciting freebee for long-time users. Unclear how it would affect sales. Contextual meaning of the word 'benefit' is insufficiently defined".
  Full fidelity cockpits (not planes, I argue that the flight models of the included free planes are already high fidelity) are something few new customers appreciate. Heck, even long-time players bind most full fidelity cockpits to their controllers, and outside of startup procedures (which few new customers appreciate), there is very little difference while flying - that's pretty much what HOTAS was invented for. I contend that a Full Fidelity cockpit is an "end-game feature", not a neophyte thing, and I would argue that a complex binding screen (especially one that lacks smart pre-binds) scares off new people more than anything else. So a full fidelity cockpit must be chosen very, very carefully to not scare off new users. Perhaps the F-5E could be good fit in this regard, provided we get good pre-binding. Then again, most people would bind the important switches, and players wouldn't notice the difference. So what is the overall benefit? Long-time players may get an additional free hifi cockpit. Would it attract more users, would it increase sales? Highly debatable.
   
•  Is two weeks separated by half a year enough to get a good idea of the more complex modules before buying
  This is a thoroughly biased question ("is enough" begs the question). Let me put it differently: People are expected to base the purchase of a car (some 10k-20k investment) on a 45 minute test drive. Yet it seems that these same people can't be expected to base a purchase decision for a 50$ entertainment title after driving it for two weeks?
  To me, the entire question again boils down to "do you think that people prefer to have more for free". The answer will not surprise anyone. IMHO, two hours are more than enough, and I applaud ED for their generosity in this regard. I fault them, however, for something that this poll completely fails to ask: "do you think it detrimental to DCS's popularity that free trials aren't available on Steam where 3/4 (if not more) of all DCS customers come from"? Because - although I believe we all understand why this is currently that way - that answer to that is "YES!"

tl;dl: I think this poll asks mainly rhetorical questions. Let me ask and answer the following instead: 

Q: Do you think people know that the free planes in DCS are there to entice a download, and then ED try to sell you stuff? In a related subject, did you know about Gillette's "give away the razor and sell the blades" market ploy?

A: The Su25T and TF51 are supposed to not be great, just passable to mark the difference between free and premium. Everyone who comes to DCS knows that they are getting the razor, and are expected to buy blades. And many already are ogling at some of the blades: The Hog, Bug, Cat, Viper or Apache. And everyone always loves more free stuff.

[bies]

All considerations, pros and cons, aside - ED, using some 2-3 years to license, research, obtain data, code, consult, debug full fidelity FREE module - might end up bankrupt and DCS project ended.

I doubt ED has some huge financial margin to be allowed to work without payment - workhours needed to make full fidelity module/research/license etc. is comparable to making whole other genre full PC game for free. DCS full fidelity module is not WT-like copy-paste, change few parameters in Excel, new 3d model and low quality cockpit. Complexity is enormous.

Regardless of whether it would be profitable in a long term or not, even if ED would like to make something like that for free. It may financially kill them and whole DCS project. And this would be a damn shame, a truly dark day. And then what?

Edited March 4, 2023 by bies

[FalcoGer]

4 hours ago, Migratingcoconut said:

I completely forgot about that, yeah it basically is just that. Where did they announce it? I don't remember seeing it on the news updates.

I may have confused it with something else.

[Beirut]

Regardless of any shortcomings DCS or ED may have with this, that, or the other thing, the free trials are top shelf excellent. If you get to try the plane even once for two-weeks, that's pretty sweet all on its own. That you get to do it twice a year, year after year, is amazing. Some planes I've tried at least twice and then bought, and others I have tried at least twice and am pretty sure I won't buy.

 

Free trial system as it is = 

[freehand]

If you cannot make your mind up in 2 weeks using free trials, then DCS is not for you.

[SharpeXB]

3 hours ago, cfrag said:

The answer is always "yes" - because they are every person's first contact with DCS.

Not really. I’ve never touched either of those. I went straight to the A-10C. Of course at the time it was one of only two modules in DCS but it was enough to get me hooked. I imagine a lot of people go straight for something that interests them. Those free planes aren’t very exciting, nor should they be. 

[SharpeXB]

9 hours ago, Migratingcoconut said:

Therefore my current top suggestion for a free plane is this:

The F-117A

Strongly disagree. ED should not be in the business of developing complex modules and giving them away for free. There’s already a free trial period which is quite generous. 

Edited March 4, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Tomas9970]

In my opinion, the TF-51 is more important as an entry point into DCS not only because it's high-fidelity, but also because it's a trainer that you can use to learn the fundamentals before flying anything else. As for the SU-25T, I think it's just unlucky that it's an eastern plane and therefore nothing about it is exactly mainstream (despite having LGBs, TV-guided weapons and in general the things we demand from our new plane here).

 

If ED really wanted to make a free western plane with modern weapons, I think it should either be some basic light attack plane (I'm sure we can at least find something AGM-65 capable) and/or something with a lot of off-the-shelf avionics where a lot of systems had already been researched in other projects.

 

As for the 2 week trials, I think it's amazing if you want to evaluate a thing as a somewhat decided player but at least for me, it's hard to imagine having the first impression from a trial module as opposed to actual base game content.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Tomas9970

[SharpeXB]

Many seem to miss the point of the game having free aircraft. Since DCS is free to play it has to come with these by necessity. They’re simply intended as a demo to give you an idea of what DCS is like. The majority of players in DCS don’t train on trainer aircraft, they simply train on the actual modules. Quite clearly they need to be the least appealing modules, notice there’s not a free F-15C. The point of a demo is exactly that.

Edited March 4, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Mr_sukebe]

The free aircraft made absolutely no difference to me.  I came to DCS because I'd read that it had the best helicopter model in a flight sim and I wanted to learn to fly a helicopter, so the Huey it was.

As for giving away freebies.  Is there any need, when all players can simply download the free community A4 mod, which really is very good.

When I come across potential new players, sure I mention that the core game is free to download and includes the TF51 and Su25.  Then I promptly recommend them to also download the A4, which IMO is a MUCH better advertisement of the game's capabilities.

In short, no, I don't see why ED should fund the development of another free aircraft, when they already have a LOT on their plate to deliver.

Let me put the above another way, which incoming technology or mod would you prefer for ED to deprioritise in favour of a freebie, as that would be the implications, as it would take effort, time and money to do.

The easy solution would be to simply better advertise the free A4.

Edited March 4, 2023 by Mr_sukebe

[Beirut]

41 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Not really. I’ve never touched either of those. I went straight to the A-10C. Of course at the time it was one of only two modules in DCS but it was enough to get me hooked. I imagine a lot of people go straight for something that interests them. Those free planes aren’t very exciting, nor should they be. 

 

I'm just going to go ahead and disagree a little bit. The P-51 trainer flies nicely and really gives you a feel for what the sim can do as far as FMs go. I came over from the other WWII sim and found the free DCS P-51 to be... refined. 

 

The Su-25T is actually a great intro to the world of DCS guided weapons. It has nice weapons screen, night targeting, it shoots guided missiles the size of telephone poles, can do SEAD, and basically carries a crapton ton of quality KABOOM! I think it's underrated. 

 

I guess the free trials have made those planes less "necessary". But prior to the free trials, I thought they were a very good intro.

[Tomas9970]

So in your opinion, DCS has a free to play aspect just so you can access the core regardless of what module you pay for?

 

To simplify this. I think the SU-25T is the whole reason we are having this conversation. It has good capabilities as a plane (satisfactory for an intruduction) but none of it's weapons are something people would be immediately familiar with as opposed to western stuff.

[Tree_Beard]

I don't have any data to point to, but I would guess that most players who try DCS for the first time do so on Steam. This means that the two-week trial thing is not relevant for them. 

Anecdotally, I've recommended DCS to two people I know, who downloaded the free to play game on Steam and tried out the two free planes. Neither of them stuck around to buy any modules. 

I think the F15C should also be free to play. 

 

[MadKreator]

I never even gave the su-25 or tf-51 a shot.. I hopped in the su-25 once, flew for a minute or two and thought  , this thing is ugly as hell and it sucks( I’m sure its not a bad aircraft)… then I bought the a-10 and f-18, never looked back I’ve always been into flight sims so it really was a no-brainer for me to jump right in. I have plenty of friends that see my setup and have watched me play and said how cool it is, but they aren’t that “in” to flight sims, so they would never even try it out , no matter how free it was. Point being I honestly don’t feel like the free vs paid modules is what really makes it or breaks it for a lot of people. I mean the whole lot of fc3 aircraft don’t cost that much, to take the next step. How much do people spend on coffee every week, cigarettes, junk at the gas station, bored shopping on amazon, going to the movies or out to one family  dinner? For the amount of entertainment they can get out of a dcs module in comparison, I don’t see any reason for ED to consider more free content, Its a stepping stone, thats all.

[Gunfreak]

I bought the A10 way back when  ut was new my old joystick didn't work properly, so gave up. Came back like 8 years later, now with VR and a working HOTAS and bought the Jug.

I've never flown the Su25 or Tf-51.

[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, MadKreator said:

this thing is ugly as hell and it sucks( I’m sure its not a bad aircraft)… then I bought the a-10 and f-18, never looked back

This is exactly the purpose of the free aircraft

39 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

I'm just going to go ahead and disagree a little bit. The P-51 trainer flies nicely and really gives you a feel for what the sim can do as far as FMs go. I came over from the other WWII sim and found the free DCS P-51 to be... refined. 

 

The Su-25T is actually a great intro to the world of DCS guided weapons. It has nice weapons screen, night targeting, it shoots guided missiles the size of telephone poles, can do SEAD, and basically carries a crapton ton of quality KABOOM! I think it's underrated. 

 

I guess the free trials have made those planes less "necessary". But prior to the free trials, I thought they were a very good intro.

Again the purpose of the free aircraft is not for them to be really great, they’re just in the game as a demo, for that purpose they actually need to be rather dull. Quality, but dull. 

24 minutes ago, Tree_Beard said:

I think the F15C should also be free to play.

No because the F-15C is too cool. Nobody would have the incentive to buy much else. 
 

You guys all miss the point of having a free demo. 

[Daerchanar]

Thanks for bringing this up.

The F-117A, IMHO would make the best mod plane in DCS. It's a simple attack aircraft, subsonic, single-seater, and has no radars or advanced avionics of any kind.

 

[Rudel_chw]

33 minutes ago, Daerchanar said:

and has no radars or advanced avionics of any kind.

no radar, yes, but it has fly-by-wire, gps & ins navigation, infrared imaging and a laser designator .. isnt that advanced?

[TOViper]

7 hours ago, SkateZilla said:

Honestly, it wouldn't make sense to develop a Full Fidelity Aircraft and give it away for free to everyone, there's no guarantee it would bring in more players

I have to disagree.
I tell you a story: I bought FS2020 for fun. After one week I threw it away (like all other FSxxxxx in the past).
Recently, a friend told me that the A-310 is modeled to perfection, and I might take a look. This made me start playing FS2020 again, because this aircraft is modeled to near-perfection, and for me it is a lot of fun to fly it. So I am one these "more players".

Other thing: ED could add the F-5 Tiger instead of the - IMHO - totally useless SU-25T (or simply add it).
The Tiger is a complex aircraft but easy to fly, click-able pit, space-design of the 60's, air-2-air & air-to-ground cabable, and cold-war era jet with some features. Polish the module ... and here you go! What more can someone new ask for?
Ok ... the Viggen, I know 

[Spurts]

I think incorporating the Community A-4 as a built in model is a novel idea.  It is truly wonderful and already available for free.

[SharpeXB]

4 minutes ago, TOViper said:

I bought FS2020

Key word; bought. The A-310 there isn’t free. 
A sim like DCS cannot afford to give away it’s content for free. 

6 minutes ago, Spurts said:

I think incorporating the Community A-4 as a built in model is a novel idea.  It is truly wonderful and already available for free.

The A-4 is a mod. Not official content. I do understand that team has no desire or ability to make it official.