AGM-114L Radar Hellfire without the Longbow - how will it be used?

[backspace340]

I saw Wags has updated the roadmap to say they're planning to give us the AGM-114L Radar Hellfire next month (but no indicative timeline for the FCR) - so I was just wondering if anyone knows how we'll be able to use the radar hellfires without the FCR? i.e. what methods will we be able to use to designate a target / area and what are the likely limitations?

Edited April 3, 2023 by backspace340

[JSpidey]

If I understand correctly, you'll lase with the TADS and the coordinates from the laser spot can be used with the radar hellfire.

[AvroLanc]

9 hours ago, JSpidey said:

If I understand correctly, you'll lase with the TADS and the coordinates from the laser spot can be used with the radar hellfire.

This is correct.

The Radar Hellfire just needs a target location. It can be used in either LOBL or LOAL. Generally LOBL for all moving targets and short range stationary targets. LOAL for long range stationary targets. The missile itself will decide LOBL or LOAL depending on whether it’s active radar seeker sees the target or not whilst still on the rail. 

For use with the TADS you’ll get a TARGET DATA? message in the weapon inhibit field until you lase and provide good location data to missile. 

[McGraw]

Why is this of interest without the FCR when we already have a laser guided hellfire?

[toilet2000]

4 minutes ago, McGraw said:

Why is this of interest without the FCR when we already have a laser guided hellfire?

The Longbow Hellfires are fire & forget. You do not need to continuously lase. You just have to have a valid target position.

[Flagrum]

But without appropriate radar illumination, the precision should be rather low, right? It is then basically just INS guided?

[NeedzWD40]

30 minutes ago, Flagrum said:

It is then basically just INS guided?

No, the AGM-114L is an active radar homing missile. Using TADS gives the missile the information needed to track the target, like range, velocity, etc. and then it turns on its own seeker at a certain distance from the target.

[toilet2000]

51 minutes ago, Flagrum said:

But without appropriate radar illumination, the precision should be rather low, right? It is then basically just INS guided?

No, it has its own millimeter wave radar. It basically locks onto the most "significant" radar return at the targeted point.

[admiki]

5 hours ago, toilet2000 said:

No, it has its own millimeter wave radar. It basically locks onto the most "significant" radar return at the targeted point.

So no use near any bridge?

[whiteladder]

32 minutes ago, admiki said:

So no use near any bridge?

The seeker can distinguish between a valid target and a structure.  

[MrReynolds]

10 hours ago, McGraw said:

Why is this of interest without the FCR when we already have a laser guided hellfire?

I'm "imagining" for this iteration, it'll allow much better masking for stationary targets at least.

Pop up, lase, bob down.  Transfer coordinates to the missile and then.....fire.

 

Now - if we can transfer target points across to individual missiles we really can get ripple fire going.

Pop up, store 4 or 5 target points --> hide.  Fire, next target point, fire, and so on.  VERY much like JSOWs in TOO mode / markpoints in the Hornet.

Could get spammy however, so I know for myself I would fire a couple then move to another fire spot.  yes - that's a good strategy anyhow :-)))

 

Since I'm late to the party, and people above have mentioned the radar - that would cut out any discrepancies with the laser coordinate being a couple of metres off.  Looking forward to them.  AND the radar

Edited April 5, 2023 by MrReynolds

[Hobel]

Like this? :

 

[Floyd1212]

Ah, I see.  The trick is to crack your canopy open for a moment after launch.

Is there an indication as to whether you are still within constraints to launch?  I'm seeing a small dashed constraints box when you launched that, and I am surprised it turned that much to find the target.  Maybe I just underestimate the size of the radar cone on the 114L vs. the laser tracker on the 114K?

[Rhinozherous]

3 hours ago, Hobel said:

Like this? :

 

Impressive curve the hellfire is doing there 

... I wonder if this is correct to real life? 

[Hobel]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Rhinozherous:

Impressive curve the hellfire is doing there 

... I wonder if this is correct to real life? 

 

I can't say for sure but here they are launched vertically upwards so there is probably some agility to reach the target

 

https://youtube.com/shorts/qFmvUd1NOME?feature=share

[AvroLanc]

15 minutes ago, Rhinozherous said:

Impressive curve the hellfire is doing there 

... I wonder if this is correct to real life? 

Yes the curved trajectory is deliberately off-axis. It's curved to give the missile DBS - Doppler Beam Sharpening. Basically giving the seeker a high LOS rate vs ground speed vs terrain -to pick out the target against the ground clutter.  

[Hobel]

Gerade eben schrieb AvroLanc:

Yes the curved trajectory is deliberately off-axis. It's curved to give the missile DBS - Doppler Beam Sharpening. Basically giving the seeker a high LOS rate vs ground speed vs terrain -to pick out the target against the ground clutter.  

I don't think that's what he means, I'm flying almost 90° to the target and the rocket has to pull much more G than usual.

[Floyd1212]

Nice!  We get high off-boresight Hellfires! Can't wait to go A2A with the Ka-50.

[Temetre]

Btw does anyone know how the radar vaguely works? Does it create a kind of "3d image" where the missile tracks a specific vehicle shape/signature? Does the missile track signatures pre-programmed or just something designated just before launch? What happens if eg a tank turns from 90 degree to 180 degree angle, which would change the image a lot.

I heard some missiles (eg the derived brimstone) can even automatically detect and identify vehicles with TOO shots, which sounded kinda crazy.

Its kinda hard to imagine how exactly a radar seeker missile would work. It could be both very basic, or incredibly complicated, depending on the sector capability and software employed.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Temetre

[krazyj]

my results seems to be a bit varied with George. I ask him to fire and he does not and when I ask him to fire again he will fire but more often than not he misses. what am I doing wrong ?

 

[jubuttib]

On 4/5/2023 at 12:47 AM, McGraw said:

Why is this of interest without the FCR when we already have a laser guided hellfire?

Testing last night from a hover with George, I could easily have 2, sometimes 3 missiles in the air at the same time heading towards different targets. That plus the ability to just bob down after a launch definitely gives the Limas a lot of versatility vs. the Kilos. But I also ran into some issues where I couldn't hit the exact target I was aiming for when multiple targets were close together, so there's still definitely a place for laser guidance.

EDIT: And doing the lasing myself, I could ripple off about 5 missiles before the first one landed, too. This is definitely a capability that can be useful.

Edited May 20, 2023 by jubuttib