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Posted

In this Video at 3:30 you can perfectly see the amount of right pedal on take off on a rather light Gazelle:

 

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"Muß ich denn jedes Mal, wenn ich sauge oder saugblase den Schlauchstecker in die Schlauchnut schieben?"

Posted
1 hour ago, karasinicoff said:

Dear Polychop

I have been try and try and try but this model is broken.

Have you ever try to fly with weapons? Gazelle is a light attack chopper not just for sightseeing.

It is not flyable properly in the battle field, not even able to fly and get altitudes.

I am very appreciate that you updates lots of things on Gazelle but please fix the engine model. 

Also unable to use Mistral as well, there are lots of bugs around.

I understand how hard to make it perfect since F 15E came out etc.. But this 342 model has been around many years.

please please fix it, mainly the engine issue. Clearly it is not right. 

 

Can you be more specific, what it is that you want to do?

Altitude, flight regime, weight…. etc.

When you load her to max. rated weight and the complain that you can’t hover at 5000 ft, that is something different than take off from sea level at 15C. No?

The old flight model was overpowered, so don’t take it as a reference.

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"Muß ich denn jedes Mal, wenn ich sauge oder saugblase den Schlauchstecker in die Schlauchnut schieben?"

Posted
1 hour ago, karasinicoff said:

Kedves Polychop!

Próbálkoztam és próbálkoztam, de ez a modell elromlott.

Próbáltál már fegyverrel repülni? A Gazelle egy könnyű támadó helikopter, nem csak városnézéshez.

Nem repülhet megfelelően a csatatéren, még repülni és magasságot sem képes elérni.

Nagyon nagyra értékelem, hogy sok mindent frissít a Gazelle-n, de kérjük, javítsa ki a motor modelljét.

A Mistral sem használható, sok hiba van a környéken.

Megértem, milyen nehéz tökéletessé tenni, mióta megjelent az F 15E stb.. De ez a 342-es modell már sok éve létezik.

kérlek javítsd ki, főleg a motorproblémát. Nyilvánvaló, hogy ez nem helyes.

 

Mistral was good until the recent patch. ED messed something up in the patch (and NOT Polychop), because there was no patch for Gazella!

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Posted

Sorry but isn’t there a SME from PC that could just explain and set the record straight instead of us speculating? Did I miss such an official clarification post somewhere?

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Posted
3 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Sorry but isn’t there a SME from PC that could just explain and set the record straight instead of us speculating?


You could head ove to their discord, where the developers are more active:

 

https://discord.gg/6Udnyq3f

 

 

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Posted
11 hours ago, Hiob said:

In this Video at 3:30 you can perfectly see the amount of right pedal on take off on a rather light Gazelle:

 

Nice vid, I could see the boots on pedal at landing and take off. Not a lot of right pedal to stay straight from what I can see, until he started to yaw right at 3:40.  

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Posted
9 hours ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Nice vid, I could see the boots on pedal at landing and take off. Not a lot of right pedal to stay straight from what I can see, until he started to yaw right at 3:40.  

Now it depends on the definition of "a lot". 😅 I find it quite significant. Compare it to the idle position at start up. However - this Gazelle is light. One Person, no equippment. The heavier you are, the more right pedal you need.

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"Muß ich denn jedes Mal, wenn ich sauge oder saugblase den Schlauchstecker in die Schlauchnut schieben?"

Posted
On 6/22/2023 at 4:18 PM, YoYo said:

In my opinion the model needs a hotfix from @Polychop Simulations when it comes to FM and I hope we won't have to wait a few more years for that ;).

The current model seems a bit too heavy, or the engine is too weak. It was mentioned here before. It's not a Mi-8, and more or less it started flying like a transport helicopter. Gazelle is still a recon, a dragonfly helicopter. It lacked the dynamics it had. I've seen Gazelle several times at air shows and I'm afraid that the model with the current FM engine power?) would not be able to perform all these figures as fast as this one in real life.

Another issue is the very bad take off behavior. The model tends to .... tip over to the right. At the same time, this is not a real behavior, the model should possibly start turning, then we should counter it with the pedals, of course, but do not fall over! It is enough to do the same on the other helicopter models in DCS and none has such a strong twisting effect but in the vertical axis. Now there is an instantaneous coup and what's important even moving a stick to left doesn't help much. This is very strange and unreal. If in real life the helicopter behaved so unstable, it would not be allowed to fly by any commission. I'll make a video later and post it here.

Overall, it's nice that something is happening and that changes have been made, but it still needs improvement, I hope we'll see fixes in the next DCS patch OBs. :thumbup:

Don't change the helicopter's FM away from it being realistic. It seems totally believable in it's current state, unlike from before.

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Posted
1 hour ago, BalticDude said:

Don't change the helicopter's FM away from it being realistic. It seems totally believable in it's current state, unlike from before.

Please do not confuse two things - realism and difficulty. Just because something is difficult doesn't mean it's realistic and vice versa. People sometimes think that if something is difficult that means it's realistic, it's an absolutely wrong line of reasoning.

Aircraft are ALWAYS made so that a person of average skill can operate them without any problems in the basic configuration (I'm not talking about second, higher-level piloting). In that sense, no test pilot or development team would allow an airship if a person of average piloting ability couldn't handle basic maneuvers. It is normal development process. So going further, if something becomes dangerous at the start, the project in real life is told it's over, fix it.

Thinking that if something is difficult means that it is realistic is completely wrong.

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Posted
33 minutes ago, YoYo said:

Please do not confuse two things - realism and difficulty. Just because something is difficult doesn't mean it's realistic and vice versa. People sometimes think that if something is difficult that means it's realistic, it's an absolutely wrong line of reasoning.

Aircraft are ALWAYS made so that a person of average skill can operate them without any problems in the basic configuration (I'm not talking about second, higher-level piloting). In that sense, no test pilot or development team would allow an airship if a person of average piloting ability couldn't handle basic maneuvers. It is normal development process. So going further, if something becomes dangerous at the start, the project in real life is told it's over, fix it.

Thinking that if something is difficult means that it is realistic is completely wrong.

I think you read too much into his statement. He said "believable", not "difficult". And I would agree - also I don't find it more difficult than any other Helicopter in DCS. Once you know where your controls need to be, you're golden.

There is a "dead zone" in the power curve, where the torque doesn't increase although you keep raising the collective in a linear motion. This is something I find a bit quirky.
But things like that, if wrong, will be ironed out over time. The new FM is a first throw. It hasn't been tweaked yet. Do you guys know any FM in DCS that was perfect right from the get go? I certainly don't.

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"Muß ich denn jedes Mal, wenn ich sauge oder saugblase den Schlauchstecker in die Schlauchnut schieben?"

Posted
1 hour ago, Hiob said:

He said "believable", not "difficult".

It's not about the words 😀, but sometimes people think that something to be "realistic" must be "difficult" and it its "diffucult" means its "realistic". No, that's not how it works. 😅

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Posted (edited)

This is good example of start, see pedals (just a slight tilt to the right, the copter takes off without heeling):

and another:

This is a stable helicopter when taking off.

I will only add that I consider the changes in FM and the direction to be good.

Edited by YoYo
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Posted (edited)

Well. for what it's worth I'm rally enjoying the new FM.
There are probably some quirks, but I'm sure they will be ironed out.
Take offs are full right pedal, fuel is 100 percent leaded it seems, but one can fly around on 30% for a long time.
Hovering is so easy now, even easier than before it seems.
Main issue for me is the faulty FFB trimming, but PC has assured us they are on top of it, so for the time being I fly with the magnetic brake off after disabling the extra FFB settings under the special menu. @Kinkkujuustovoileipä@swatstar98 @Polychop Simulations could you elaborate a little on what that setting actually does?

image.png

In any case, having a blast plinking the 4 static tanks while flying solo in the QS mission, so this is going in the right direction.
Can't wait for the Kiowa and your next project!
Cheers!

Edited by MAXsenna
Posted (edited)

Yes indeed a lovely update, an entirely new chopper to learn. It almost upsets me that the Kiowa may not be in the same league for agility.

Loved my last flight with the AP off....  light weight fluidity! You simply rode the weight of the machine.

Fabulous work Polychops and done the right way!

I am sure there is more work to do..... but Bravo Polychops!

Bravis!

Edited by Rogue Trooper
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Posted

I found issues with the FM, the solution, or at least part of it for me has been uninstalling the module and installed it again, instant action at all the maps is broken, not loading weapons and the gazelle almost unflyable, but the two campaigns works fine, only have to enter each mission and select weapons before start flying and lower fuel almost to 50%, before enter the mission.

At least works for me and can fly the chopper "more or less" like before.

Hope this help, also the trim is a real pain in the ass, not working as expected.

 

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Posted (edited)

Can anyone state clearly wether there is any kind of auto pilot on this helo now? and if so; is it on by default? if so; how can you tell? how do you deactivate it completely? I ask because i am getting a regular side by side rocking that suggests when i turn with the cyclic that i am fighting an autopilot that is counteracting my control inputs, causing dangerous rocking. It is definitely not a pendulum-like rocking, more control input induced rocking. This happens regardless of how i setup my extended warthog stick and tune the controls. The autopilot channel switches do not seem to indicate if they are on or off and I can't tell any difference when flipping them up or down. The previous autopilot kept the helo flying level and when switched off, it was obvious you had to constantly adjust the controls to prevent drifting. This is not evident anymore.

I think I have mastered the trimming controls, to the point I can already hover stable enough to sucessfully hit targets with the HOT missiles, but only with my foot pressed firmly and carefully on max right pedal, which means I can't yaw right if i drift off target. It kind of feels like the rudder is either full on or full off, as when I slightly release pressure to yaw left, the helo swings wildly as though I have fully released the pedal. Having changed saturation, etc. to various degrees, this seems unavoidable.  

I have been flying both the old (easy) and new FM gazelle since release and it's definitely an improvement by far, but this rocking and the required absolute full right pedal on takeoff / hover seems unlikely to be fully realistic to me. I can never be confident of being able to control the aircraft now, and fear losing the ability to yaw to the right at all when in stable hover. Also as I translate from hover to forward flight, the full right pedal quickly flips to full left sometimes as though the wind has completely changed direction rather than just flowing over the tail and reducing rudder input gradually. I fly Mi-8, harrier and M2000C mostly and am fairly confident in my understanding of aerodynamics with regards to both helos and planes. As others have stated on here, if it's realistic then I can accept everything as is, but it would suprise me that a helicopter used for elementary training would be so seemingly unstable at critical points in the flight envelope.

All flying is done with the good advice from you guys on this forum, for example; with cyclic pulled slightly back and left and gradual right pedal as expected, take off seems realistic but other transisions seem dangerous.

(sorry in advance for the block of text!)

 

 

Edited by Jaguar 1-1 - Ant
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Posted
1 hour ago, Jaguar 1-1 - Ant said:

Can anyone state clearly wether there is any kind of auto pilot on this helo now? and if so; is it on by default? if so; how can you tell? how do you deactivate it completely? I ask because i am getting a regular side by side rocking that suggests when i turn with the cyclic that i am fighting an autopilot that is counteracting my control inputs, causing dangerous rocking. It is definitely not a pendulum-like rocking, more control input induced rocking. This happens regardless of how i setup my extended warthog stick and tune the controls. The autopilot channel switches do not seem to indicate if they are on or off and I can't tell any difference when flipping them up or down. The previous autopilot kept the helo flying level and when switched off, it was obvious you had to constantly adjust the controls to prevent drifting. This is not evident anymore.

I think I have mastered the trimming controls, to the point I can already hover stable enough to sucessfully hit targets with the HOT missiles, but only with my foot pressed firmly and carefully on max right pedal, which means I can't yaw right if i drift off target. It kind of feels like the rudder is either full on or full off, as when I slightly release pressure to yaw left, the helo swings wildly as though I have fully released the pedal. Having changed saturation, etc. to various degrees, this seems unavoidable.  

I have been flying both the old (easy) and new FM gazelle since release and it's definitely an improvement by far, but this rocking and the required absolute full right pedal on takeoff / hover seems unlikely to be fully realistic to me. I can never be confident of being able to control the aircraft now, and fear losing the ability to yaw to the right at all when in stable hover. Also as I translate from hover to forward flight, the full right pedal quickly flips to full left sometimes as though the wind has completely changed direction rather than just flowing over the tail and reducing rudder input gradually. I fly Mi-8, harrier and M2000C mostly and am fairly confident in my understanding of aerodynamics with regards to both helos and planes. As others have stated on here, if it's realistic then I can accept everything as is, but it would suprise me that a helicopter used for elementary training would be so seemingly unstable at critical points in the flight envelope.

All flying is done with the good advice from you guys on this forum, for example; with cyclic pulled slightly back and left and gradual right pedal as expected, take off seems realistic but other transisions seem dangerous.

(sorry in advance for the block of text!)

 

 

 

There is no autopilot, only autohover and heading-hold/slave to sight modes. Both of which are buggy and being fixed. Further autopilot modes may come later.

The fighting behaviour is likely the SAS, which may be detuned in future update.

The pedal issue is likely due to the amount of power you are putting in - more collective power means you need more pedal to fight the torque. In an OGE hover with HOT3s loaded, you are very heavy, thus lots of power, thus lots of torque. This is partly accurate, but the power issue is increased due to a bug that will be fixed in the next update.

So, these issues should become somewhat easier soon, but it won't hold your hand 😉

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Kinkkujuustovoileipä said:

The fighting behaviour is likely the SAS, which may be detuned in future update.

The pedal issue is likely due to the amount of power you are putting in - more collective power means you need more pedal to fight the torque. In an OGE hover with HOT3s loaded, you are very heavy, thus lots of power, thus lots of torque. This is partly accurate, but the power issue is increased due to a bug that will be fixed in the next update.

So, these issues should become somewhat easier soon, but it won't hold your hand 😉

I just reduced fuel from 100% to 50%, and there was no difference.
My thrustmaster pendular pedals just don't have enough input when close to hover.
I also reduced temp to 13º, but it changed nothing.
In real life, hover would be a life threatening manouver to be avoided.
That is not why I bought the module.

Edited by Moxica

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Posted
hace 10 minutos, Moxica dijo:

I just reduced fuel from 100% to 50%, and there was no difference.
My thrustmaster pendular pedals just don't have enough input when close to hover.
I also reduced temp to 13º, but it changed nothing.
In real life, hover would be a life threatening manouver to be avoided.
That is not why I bought the module.

 

How did you change the fuel amount? You must do it for example at a generated mission, is a know bug that in-game crew request does not works.

Also see the amount of kgs, be sure that are below 100%

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Posted (edited)

In opinion, something is going wrong with the FM, When you hoover over the ground, you can put 100% of collective, the turbine load stays at 90%, but the Gazelle won't get higher. You must move forward with a speed over 20km/h to start having a positive vertical speed. All this time you have to push hardly to the right to stay on course. When reaching higher speed, above 20 km/h, the VS increase, but also the turbine load, taht goes over 100%. Maybe it's the ground effect that hold the Gazelle, or the FM must be corrected. Before the update, the transitionfrom hoover to flight was maybe good, but now it's hard the get out the ground effect.

Second point, is the transition between flight and hoover, where the Gazelle litteraly sink to ground, even if you're gentle or hard with the collective. And it's more present at  "higher" altitudes, where it quiet impossible to hold it on, and finished with a crash, or a good slam on the ground before standing in a ground effect hoover.

Thats join to the first point,  so I think, but maybe i'm wrong, that ground effect and vortex are exagerated, or the efficiency of the collective is undervalued. 

When I look to most of the videos of the real Gazelle, it's really more reactive that the actual DCS FM. Perhaps the truth is in the middle of the old and the new FM.

I also noticed in that video, if you look at the feet of the pilot, he's not pushing so much on the right foot to stay in position. 

Hope Polychop will find the correct setup to have a marvellous Gazelle like we can see in the videos. 

I just want to finish by telling Polychop a big Thank You for the work they are doing on this great french heli. I can imagine that it is not easy to have the data and to set a perfect FM in DCS.

Thanks to all the Polychop team. 

Edited by grim_reaper68
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Posted
21 minutes ago, firefox121 said:

How did you change the fuel amount? You must do it for example at a generated mission, is a know bug that in-game crew request does not works.

Also see the amount of kgs, be sure that are below 100%

Mission editor

14 minutes ago, grim_reaper68 said:

 I also noticed in that video, if you look at the feet of the pilot, he's not pushing so much on the right foot to stay in position. 

 

There is no way I can turn like that with right rudder pedal input.

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