Thoughts on the new flight model changes?

[Chaffee]

2 hours ago, oldcrusty said:

I don't know what's going on... do we have different Hornet builds floating around or what?

After having read reports about landing gear failing and lower turn rates I hopped in for a quick test.  Landing gear first - T/O weight 46.5k lbs (8xMk83s) ,  flipped her around without raising gear or flaps,  flaps to full, slammed it on the runway at over 1100f/m descent rate, bounced back and dropped again... not a scratch.

As far as turning and burning, I didn't see any major issues,  (I'll post a vid later... of course )

Touch and go's (or bolters) still the same though

 

Agreed.

I'm a DCS (but not flight sim) n00b. That means I've been doing a lot of landings lately, up to the point of practicing TACAN-only fully manual CAT III recoveries.

The landing gear is more fragile, yes, but today I've been planting at up to -850 VSI w/o a problem (usually around 650 though, and it's just fine). I have broken the gear, but only when slamming the plane into the deck (which you could do before w/o breaking the gear, but it seemed excessive).

The new FM is much better on approach. ATC isn't chasing me around any longer in some weird porpoising algo. (I got used to shutting it off and running the throttle myself) The FCS seems properly dampened in pitch now too when approaching the deck.

I, too, see no problem with turn rate, (but I'm no genius at getting the most out of it), and the low-speed high AOA regime is the stuff dreams are made of. The paddle also no longer spikes G-forces, so can be used when you just need that little extra (although I really don't use it).

The plane now will "run away" above 485-ish on burner, but it sheds speed very nicely, which seems appropriate for something that can sit on 50 degrees of alpha at 55 knots...

It feels like there's more "substance" now. It feels like there's inertia underneath the FCS.

Zero issues on bolters: I'm not changing configuration, however. I put it in the water once while testing how lazy I could be on the throttle.

The airframe is much more stable on airfield launches, actually staying straight.

I've never flown an F/A-18C. I've flown flight sims since the '70s (seriously): everything from WWI to space flight. I've never been more pleased with a flight model than screwing around in this airframe today. I'm sure there are bugs or other issues, but today, this thing felt absolutely amazing.

Thank you, ED crew. I think you're on the right track.

Edited February 24 by Chaffee

[Indianajon]

@wilbur81I found the same thing initially compared to the old model but less stick back pressure (think tomcat) and it will whip about without the bleed of speed. It's going to take a little practice but I'm really liking it. 

[Figaro9]

3 hours ago, wilbur81 said:

However, it does appear to me that there's  been a fairly significant reduction in the Hornet's instantaneous and (especially noticeable) sustained turn rates. Before the update, if you kept your speed up between 350 an 400 kts, you could maintain a good rate (19-20ish deg. per sec.) without too much bleed. Now in 2.9.3, you cannot maintain airspeed if you initiate a turn at or below 400kts (any altitude) without major bleed down...and I'm talking no stores, in full AB, with only 55-60% back-stick deflection and roughly only 65-70% of max allowable G.

Do you use bushmannis miz? Check temperature?

[Yeti42]

17 hours ago, Slick_441 said:

When gear and flaps are extended it wants to pitch up even more than before. I thought this was something they "fixed"?

See this:: 

Two threads have been merged both relating to FCS behavior, my thread was complaining about uncommanded nose up behavior after a touch-and-go

[wilbur81]

4 hours ago, Figaro9 said:

Do you use bushmannis miz? Check temperature?

Hey, Figaro... no, I don't use that miz. The ambient temps were the standard for Caucasus map whenever you create a new mission. I should've probably said above that I did not, do not, will not use the Paddle switch when testing for ITR and STR.   I'll post tracks when I get a chance.

Edited February 24 by wilbur81

[Mandellorian]

I`m definitely in the undercarriage is now made of tool picks crowd.I`ve snapped the LH U/C 5 times in a clean hornet with 3K fuel and a VSI as low as 300FPS..something isn`t right.

I`ve also noticed you can massively exceed the G-Limit on the FCS without hitting the paddle switch.

Routinely seeing over 8G without the paddle being pulled regardless of payload.

 

[Joch1955]

Been spending more time with the new FM and quickly getting used to it. Pitch and roll input still feels twitchy, but I am getting the hang of it. In flight, it does not feel that different from before.

I have not had any issue with the landing gear. No damage through multiple CV/airfield landings, even one at 40,000 pounds. I did finally manage to break the gear on a CV landing, but I came in crooked and tried to recover instead of going around. If you land correctly, there does not seem to be an issue.

I have not had an issue with regular CV/airfield takeoffs with half-flaps.

Edited February 24 by Joch1955

[oldcrusty]

4 hours ago, Yeti42 said:

See this:: 

Two threads have been merged both relating to FCS behavior, my thread was complaining about uncommanded nose up behavior after a touch-and-go

I haven't noticed any changes in this patch. As far as how this works in the real Hornet, well... there must be someone here who flew the darn thing or an SME.  I sort of remember something about an initial pitch-up or alpha capture after any 2 wheels slam the deck. If the throttles are left in mrt after the bolter, the flap transition from PA to UA continues without a 'full forward' stick   ... regardless of gear position.   I might be confusing this with other airframes lol.   C'mon SMEs, chime in.

[Q3ark]

I did some practice carrier landings this morning, absolutely no problems with the landing gear.

Generally I think the aircraft feels great now, you’ve really got to watch your speed when you get into that high alpha range, that caught me out lol. 

Edited February 24 by Q3ark

[Jackjack171]

24 minutes ago, Q3ark said:

I did some practice carrier landings this morning, absolutely no problems with the landing gear.

Generally I think the aircraft feels great now, you’ve really got to watch your speed when you get into that high alpha range, that caught me out lol. 

 

Same here!

[rob10]

I was in the "gear too fragile" now camp (and in fairness, I did figure it was maybe too indestructable before), but now I'm thinking I just developed bad habits because it was so strong (and with burble issues contributing).  At <850 FPM seems to be fine.  I think I got to used to being able to slam it down safely.  Overall I really like the changes, but it's definitely a bit of a relearning process.  Not having the bounce in pitch when releasing stick pressure is nice.  And while I'm very good at AAR, I think the new precision (you could call it twitchiness until you get used to it) actually makes it easier.  Actually maybe it's just the pitch changes now that I think about it.  Trim also seems to be finer now.  What you could do with a quick tap now requires a slight hold, which gives finer control of trim.  At low speed on CASE 1 it definitely seems to handle differently, but that's probably just needing more practice to get used to it.  Overall a big thumbs up from me so far.

[BuzzU]

Make sure you're comparing to the real plane and not what you like?

[Davee]

On 2/23/2024 at 9:49 AM, Slick_441 said:

I get a slight pitch down initially, but that it followed by what feels like runaway trim to nose up. Need almost full forward stick to stay level at 200 kts.

By any chance were you coming out of AP just before that?  For me, I notice the "exteme" nose up if I have been in AP, disconnected, then started my approach with gear and flaps and trimming to onspeed around 220 knots. Need to fight it to keep nose level. 

[Indianajon]

 

 

24 minutes ago, BuzzU said:

Make sure you're comparing to the real plane and not what you like?

I'd love too but this game is the closest I'm  ever going to get to flying a jet of any sort. All I can say is it feels better now, it feels less on rails now, a little closer to Heatblur's tomcat with regards to maintaining speed in turning and needing more finesse. The landings feel a little better now. 

I trust that ED have SMEs who have helped design this new model to be closer to the real thing. All I can say is I am liking these changes the more I try them.

[oldcrusty]

New Hornet

 

[SickSidewinder9]

The Pirouette move is friggin proper now.  Also, less fighting with autothrottle when landing.  I turn it on when I'm on speed abeam the carrier and it helps all the way through the turn and right to the wires.  Some fore/aft stick is needed but it doesn't feel like I'm having to fight it as much as I used to and then floating over the deck.  Now, if I could just catch the 3 wire.... >.<

16 minutes ago, oldcrusty said:

New Hornet

 

LOL, 43,000lbs and splat into the runway.  That poor Hornet is now grounded XD

[BuzzU]

2 hours ago, Indianajon said:

 

 

I'd love too but this game is the closest I'm  ever going to get to flying a jet of any sort. All I can say is it feels better now, it feels less on rails now, a little closer to Heatblur's tomcat with regards to maintaining speed in turning and needing more finesse. The landings feel a little better now. 

I trust that ED have SMEs who have helped design this new model to be closer to the real thing. All I can say is I am liking these changes the more I try them.

Yes, but the Hornet is fbw and should feel easy to fly compared to the Tomcat.

[wilbur81]

3 hours ago, oldcrusty said:

New Hornet

 

Your turn there, from a mag. heading of 117 deg and back to 117 (full 360 turn  in 25 seconds) was a whopping 14.4 degrees per second... a fairly significant drop from it's STR performance prior to the update. Again, perhaps this is closer to reality? But it is definitely more sluggish. I also tried Gonky's "supercruising the Legacy Hornet with a centerline bag, two pylons and 9'ers on the wingtips" that he accomplished real world (and that was doable at 25K and 60% internal gas in 2.9.2, before the FM update)... couldn't get past Mach 0.98 now at 20 deg Cel. (track attached)

Again, with this new FM update, our Hornet accelerates a bit slower and has apparently a fairly significantly higher energy bleed per G b/w 300 and 400 kts than before... 

 

no more GonkyCruise.trk

Edited February 24 by wilbur81

[MarkyMark]

I did some experimenting, myself. First ever recording, so bare with me. 
 

low speed performance, phenomenal. High AoA, impeccable. You can hear the tires squealing at the end, which is new to me. Perhaps part of my gear issues, though I didn’t break anything this time.

 

 

Edited February 24 by MarkyMark

[oldcrusty]

1 hour ago, wilbur81 said:

Your turn there, from a mag. heading of 117 deg and back to 117 (full 360 turn  in 25 seconds) was a whopping 14.4 degrees per second... a fairly significant drop from it's STR performance prior to the update. Again, perhaps this is closer to reality? But it is definitely more sluggish. I also tried Gonky's "supercruising the Legacy Hornet with a centerline bag, two pylons and 9'ers on the wingtips" that he accomplished real world (and that was doable at 25K and 60% internal gas in 2.9.2, before the FM update)... couldn't get past Mach 0.98 now at 20 deg Cel. (track attached)

Again, with this new FM update, our Hornet accelerates a bit slower and has apparently a fairly significantly higher energy bleed per G b/w 300 and 400 kts than before... 

 

no more GonkyCruise.trk 331.45 kB · 0 downloads

 

Jeez, I wasn't doing any rigorous performance tests.  No specific loads, altitutes, atmosferic conditions...  I didn't really max performed it.  Heck, I wasn't even at corner during my sustained turns.  I was simply drunk with happiness...  ok I was just drunk     When I have more time I'll try to follow some specific tests.  One thing for sure, I was able to sustain a descent turn even with 8k lbs of gas, 2 winders, 1 Amraam, FLIR and all pylons anywhere between 24k ft and 15k... so I'm good and ready to kill bots.

Edited February 24 by oldcrusty

[wilbur81]

14 minutes ago, oldcrusty said:

 I was simply drunk with happiness...  ok I was just drunk     When I have more time I'll try to follow some specific tests.  

 

nice.  

Regarding specific tests... I'm not really trying to pinpoint current benchmarks for 2.9.3 but comparing the performance loss from 2.9.2 in speed/acceleration in MIL and AB, STR, ITR, etc. Those performance areas are definitely lower than before the update...if you still have a copy of 2.9.2, try and compare if you get a chance. 

[Fulgrim]

Data by @contactlight. Flies even better now than I thought it would be possible. I'm even competing with M2K's in 1C.

 

[Chaffee]

23 minutes ago, Fulgrim said:

Data by @contactlight. Flies even better now than I thought it would be possible. I'm even competing with M2K's in 1C.

 

Overlapped (old model is faded)

[HWasp]

50% fuel take off DCS standard 20C

Some of these maneuvers, especially the negative AoA ones look very wrong to me. What is the TWR at 50% fuel?

 

 

newF18_50%_2.trk

[wilbur81]

12 hours ago, Fulgrim said:

Data by @contactlight. Flies even better now than I thought it would be possible. I'm even competing with M2K's in 1C.

 

That's a neat chart... But those numbers are apparently nonsense...I'm assuming this was done with the Paddle Switch pulled (which doesn't count). The real corner speed for the Legacy Hornet is no where near 456 knots, nor is it in DCS if flown properly (without the paddle). If these tests/results were accurate for the Hornet with no paddle pulled, that would be an insult to all the work ED have put in on this flight model. Would love to see actual tracks of this guys tests.