Flaming Cliffs 2024

[upyr1]

Other than the F-5, F-86, and MiG-15 how does it differ from fc3? 

[BalticDude]

Literally no difference other than to just reuse old assets to salvage something from their abandoned project that had potential they cared little for. It's pathetic really.

[Nealius]

I'm curious how they will simplify manual bombing with depression tables enough to make them an FC module.

[BlackPixxel]

I hope so much that it will also include some long awaited fixes for FC3 aircraft. Such as the weak acceleration of the Su-27 or the lack of the group datalink in multiplayer.

[buceador]

Any indication of pricing?

[Rudel_chw]

19 minutes ago, buceador said:

Any indication of pricing?

10 dollars to upgrade from FC3

[Ramius007]

10 hours ago, Nealius said:

I'm curious how they will simplify manual bombing with depression tables enough to make them an FC module.

As long as we dont get unrealistic ccip/ccrp i doubt they have to do anything, F-5 is propably easiest FF plane to learn, difficulty comes from making it work, rather than mastering systems. I m curious what they do with navigation, F-5, unlike all current FC3 planes had no INS. IMO F-5 is dream FC3 like plane, but rather with more advanced export varians included, then it fits FC3 perfectly, much more than current planes we get with FC3

Edited April 27, 2024 by Ramius007

[Igor4U]

For the DCSW Folks who want the $9.99 Upgrade (MiG-15, F-86, and F-5E), wondering if the Upgrade will overwrite the Configuration Settings in Saved Games for the already existing FC-3 Aircraft ?

C:\Users\User-Account\Saved Games\DCS\Config\input

Hopefully it Won't - but I guess better to be safe by making a backup copy of Saved Games before Upgrading.

And think the added 3 Fighters are a nice gesture by ED making FC an ideal starting Module for Beginners and seasoned Fighter Aces alike.     A simplified interface doesn't equal simplified Fun - in fact, the instant action scenarios in FC3 will get your Stick & Rudder Kicks into high-gear (just without high-fidelity Switchology).     

Thank you ED - Now just wondering when we'll see it for Sail ?

[draconus]

19 hours ago, Igor4U said:

Thank you ED - Now just wondering when we'll see it for Sail ?

They plan to release in summer.

[Irisz]

At medium altitude, the R-77's maximum launch distance, even at high speed, is at such a distance that you cannot launch a missile at the F-16CM if it flies a crank maneuver! Adjusted after launching the AIM-120C, you can watch the range of your missiles decrease due to the crank maneuver!

The obsolescence of the R-27ER makes it ideal to be useless against AMRAAM, while the F-16CM is free to fly a missile evasive maneuver and the Flanker's radar is just enough to track the F-16CM during missile guidance. Increased AMRAAM range so you don't want to fly towards the F-16CM! It's a pointless game because you know that all changes in DCS World are against you if you're not a NATO fan!

In addition, kudos to the developers for making the Flanker's radar broken when they fly a beam maneuver against it.
Here comes the opportunity to be happy that our R-27ER missiles are going to waste.

When you get close to combat, the main thing is to be proud of, because every change in DCS World helps to buy more NATO products in the E shop!

This is where the AIM-9X launched from 90 degrees comes into play! It is crucial that every NATO fan became a master of the 90-degree beam maneuver when it appeared! Before that, they only knew the crank maneuver or the Split S.

If ED dealt with the REDside fans we would already have a PL-12 missile on the J-11A, as this missile can be used by the J-11A. Ukraine helped develop the homing head anyway and they did the whole MFI 55 upgrade (that's why the PL-12 in the real pictures has something to do with the J-11A), but let's believe that this is not possible because it would endanger NATO products. Just as MFI 55 should not arrive even at the fantasy level, because for less money it would be more attractive if you didn't have to fly with scrap metal against NATO aircraft!

Best combination to drive away Flanker and Fulcrum fans with these moves!

What does ED do? Adds FC2024 with F-5 el and F-86 al and MiG-15 options! In the meantime, he doesn't understand why so few people play DCS World, and why you have to start a full hypo every 1-2-3 years to constantly deal with other products that are newly added to the E shop!
This has to be done every 1-2-3 years, and you can do this often enough, because their players turn a blind eye to buying half-finished products.
Practically, when a product is ready, it becomes obsolete and the current Hype takes its place, so you have to deal with it for another 3 years until the next Hype comes!

Let's not even talk about the MiG-29S, because the MiG-29's radar is weaker, it has 2 more meaningful missiles, the others are even weaker compared to the AIM-120B. After 10 minutes of flight, you run out of fuel, the airframe will tear apart under you if you are not paying attention. Best prospects for the future!

What should it be called? Digital NATO Combat Simulator?

Sad story!

Edited May 21, 2024 by Irisz

[Ramius007]

IMO for multiplayer purposes it is best to remove aim-120C and just make 90's setup on servers with aim-120B max, instead of adding pl-12 to j-11, I also have a feeling that R-77 kinetic performance is a bit too bad and aim-120 a bit too good, if you compere some availble data for aim-120 with what we have in game, it's not impossible it's overperforming (but also possible it's on point, depending on source) For DCS purpose, both single and multi player amraam with worse range is just better game. As for J-11, it should be just a visualy diffrent from Su-27, even R-77 are debious on version we get. If anything I would rather like to see players controllable Mig-31 than make missiles modifications or just pray to Deka to give us best analogue possible FF variant of J-11 with R-77 or even pl-12.

[Irisz]

15 hours ago, Ramius007 said:

IMO for multiplayer purposes it is best to remove aim-120C and just make 90's setup on servers with aim-120B max, instead of adding pl-12 to j-11, I also have a feeling that R-77 kinetic performance is a bit too bad and aim-120 a bit too good, if you compere some availble data for aim-120 with what we have in game, it's not impossible it's overperforming (but also possible it's on point, depending on source) For DCS purpose, both single and multi player amraam with worse range is just better game. As for J-11, it should be just a visualy diffrent from Su-27, even R-77 are debious on version we get. If anything I would rather like to see players controllable Mig-31 than make missiles modifications or just pray to Deka to give us best analogue possible FF variant of J-11 with R-77 or even pl-12.

But the PL-12 would solve the problem exactly. This missile is no better than the AIM-120C5, it falls between the C4 and C5. It is ideal because the PL-12 is not overly strong, ensuring that it remains challenging to compete against NATO. This is why it would be the best solution, the game would not become too easy and would remain enjoyable. NATO pilots currently enjoy the challenge of dealing with 20-year-old aircraft, and the success of the Growling Sidewinder server shows how popular the PL-12 is and how many Flanker fans are happy with the PL-12 missile on the Flanker!

If they really cared about the player base, Deka would create the J-15 Flanker aircraft model,  Chinese Su-33 cockpit with Chinese Betty and Chinese label , and equip it with PL-12 and PL-15 missiles. It's amusing that there is already a J-15 skin in DCS World. There’s no need for years of work, just add two missiles and relabel the cockpit. The PL-12 has been in the game for years, and the PL-15 in mod form. This would be a small task, and for 10 years, no one on the forum would complain that the AMRAAM is too powerful in the current state where NATO pilots are playing against aircraft that are 20 years behind!

We should be happy because ED is planning the AIM-120D with a range of 160 km, and I hope they will also include the AIM-120D3 with a range of 175.9 km, so we Flanker fans can rejoice! It will be even better if the METEOR missile is also included: maximum range: 200 km,
no escape zone: 60 km! It is an ideal source of income because the no escape zone of the Meteor is 60 km, which is the average maximum launch distance of the R-27ER. You wouldn't know what to do with the PL-12 missile if a Eurofighter pilot targeted it in a BVR air battle! The PL-15 would, dare I say it, attract thousands of Flanker fans to DCS World. No new aircraft development is needed, just add two missiles to the existing aircraft and a Chinese cockpit to the Su-33, and rename it as the J-15 for the Chinese coalition.

It will be a comedy if the METEOR and AIM-120D appear in DCS World, imagine the outcry on the forum. They will address it when they experience the impact firsthand!

I'm sure I have no idea what I'm talking about, since Flaming Cliffs 2 was popular since 2009 and it was already possible to play on online servers, and since then I've been a dedicated Flanker PvP player!

The F-5, F-86, and MiG-15 are the right solutions to these problems, believe me. This will solve problems accumulated over 15 years for another 15 years!

[Wyvern]

20 minutes ago, Irisz said:

If they really cared about the player base, Deka would create the J-15 Flanker aircraft model,  Chinese Su-33 cockpit with Chinese Betty and Chinese label , and equip it with PL-12 and PL-15 missiles. It's amusing that there is already a J-15 skin in DCS World. There’s no need for years of work, just add two missiles and relabel the cockpit.

That is not a J-15. The J-15 has a completely different cockpit, system, and loadout.
They cant just add a different cockpit and call it a day with some fantasy "j-15"
 

 

21 minutes ago, Irisz said:

The PL-12 has been in the game for years, and the PL-15 in mod form. This would be a small task, and for 10 years, no one on the forum would complain that the AMRAAM is too powerful in the current state where NATO pilots are playing against aircraft that are 20 years behind!

The PL-15 mod is completely unrealistic and based on a guess. That would also be more complicated than it seems, and wouldnt be worth the time.
To the AMRAAM, yeah no.. the only people that are really complaining about the AIM-120, are the ones that dont know how to fight it.

27 minutes ago, Irisz said:

I'm sure I have no idea what I'm talking about, since Flaming Cliffs 2 was popular since 2009 and it was already possible to play on online servers, and since then I've been a dedicated Flanker PvP player!

I mean, it honestly just sounds like you got shot in growling sidewider, and are angry now, that since 2009, you still havent learned how to fight AIM-120s properly.

 

29 minutes ago, Irisz said:

The F-5, F-86, and MiG-15 are the right solutions to these problems, believe me. This will solve problems accumulated over 15 years for another 15 years!

They are a good idea, even if they are a slightly missed opportunity.
Yes, maybe there is more interesting aircraft, but this will bring more people towards cold war era combat, which is generally the direction that DCS is going in currently, as there simply is more avaiable info. 

Not to mention that Flaming Cliffs was not supposed to recieve any updates at all.
Give it time, they just recently decided to expand on flaming cliffs.
 

[Irisz]

24 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

That is not a J-15. The J-15 has a completely different cockpit, system, and loadout.
They cant just add a different cockpit and call it a day with some fantasy "j-15"
 

 

The PL-15 mod is completely unrealistic and based on a guess. That would also be more complicated than it seems, and wouldnt be worth the time.
To the AMRAAM, yeah no.. the only people that are really complaining about the AIM-120, are the ones that dont know how to fight it.

I mean, it honestly just sounds like you got shot in growling sidewider, and are angry now, that since 2009, you still havent learned how to fight AIM-120s properly.

 

They are a good idea, even if they are a slightly missed opportunity.
Yes, maybe there is more interesting aircraft, but this will bring more people towards cold war era combat, which is generally the direction that DCS is going in currently, as there simply is more avaiable info. 

Not to mention that Flaming Cliffs was not supposed to recieve any updates at all.
Give it time, they just recently decided to expand on flaming cliffs.
 

I don't need advice on fighting AMRRAM because I've been practicing playing against it for 15 years! You think I can't practice BVR air combat tactics against AMRAAM for 15 years? Only the AIM 54 is problematic for me because it is a long-range missile with a better no escape zone. You know, for those who do not play with NATO aircraft, DCS World is very boring because nothing interesting happens in it. This person answers that he is playing the 80s, where F-16s and FA-18s fly with avionics made after 2000, which are not the 80s. In the 80s, NATO pilots shared targets with each other via data link! Very realistic!

Have some empathy, I'm trying to find some solution to the problem, and I want to point out that since 2018, the J-11A does not have a real cockpit in DCS Word, it is currently a fantasy. It has an MFI 55 display and there is an additional display above it, but it is so secret that even Deka does not have access to make it. I think this compromise would fit into DCS World. Flaming Cliffs is heavily based on fantasy, so my solution is justified. This is not a game-breaking idea, it is an opinion of someone who does not live in a NATO pink cloud! It is important to know that a Flanker fan who comes here from somewhere else uninstalls DCS World after a few months because it feels like a NATO target drone simulator. And he's to blame because he's a Flanker fan. Several of my friends uninstalled DCS world because of this, only I stayed here. There are other places where you can get newer and more entertaining airplanes for free, and it's more fun than here to fly a target drone for NATO!

Edited May 23, 2024 by Irisz

[Wyvern]

5 minutes ago, Irisz said:

Only the AIM 54 is problematic for me because it is a long-range missile with a better no escape zone.

just turn 90° and drop chaff. At close range, turn away and dive. Phoenixes are a joke.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Irisz said:

You know, for those who do not play with NATO aircraft, DCS World is very boring because nothing interesting happens in it.

Not really... I honestly have no clue what you are talking about. (yes I do have 2k hours with the Su-27/J-11A in DCS)

[draconus]

59 minutes ago, Irisz said:

It is important to know that a Flanker fan who comes here from somewhere else uninstalls DCS World after a few months because it feels like a NATO target drone simulator.

It takes skill and good group tactics to fight against more advanced and modern air forces.

Since 15 years was not enough for you to achieve advantage maybe it's time to play more even battles? LIke cold war servers, Fox1&2 only, SP...

It's not a DCS problem. You just play wrong missions.

[Irisz]

6 minutes ago, draconus said:

It takes skill and good group tactics to fight against more advanced and modern air forces.

Since 15 years was not enough for you to achieve advantage maybe it's time to play more even battles? LIke cold war servers, Fox1&2 only, SP...

It's not a DCS problem. You just play wrong missions.

It is difficult to understand and interpret the sentences that it is not about me, but about the beginner pilots and my friends who uninstalled DCS World because of this. We know at ED, Flaming Cliffs plays the role of getting you to buy more $80 modules! They are not interested in more existing problems. Uninstalling is usually easier. Not everyone can be controlled by marketing!

[Ramius007]

adv 4th gen modules dont cost 80$, they are below AAA game price every 2 months, but buying late 4h gen plane doesnt make you dominant, you will be still dying a lot, just becouse of mindset presented here. As for adding J-15 or similar, "little" problem with all advanced and even that not so advanced Chinese jets is that we dont even have cockpit photos, you cant really add those planes to arcade shooter semi realistically, and now we are talking about DCS...

edit: btw, there are servers that are adding pl-12 to J-11 or even Su-33 in modern setup, but if you think this change alone make those planes on par with F-15 or F-16 you are wrong, there are a lot of veriablees involved how competetive they are, fc3 radars are worse, situational awerness is worse, and FC3 Flanker have transonic performance issues, so pl-12 are not even close to be "I win button" What we really need, is full fidelity advanced 4th gen Chinese or Russian fighter. If you are interested in modern not NATO jet, take a look at Su-30 mod and hope that servers start adding it, similar to what ECW did with A-4

Edited May 23, 2024 by Ramius007

[Ironhand]

4 hours ago, Irisz said:

…It is important to know that a Flanker fan who comes here from somewhere else uninstalls DCS World after a few months because it feels like a NATO target drone simulator. And he's to blame because he's a Flanker fan. Several of my friends uninstalled DCS world because of this…

In this, I partially agree. While I don’t usually feel like a target drone, life can be more challenging for a Flanker pilot. But, once ED decided to go the DCS route, the sim no longer had much to do with balance for several reasons, most of which ED cannot control. So unless they decide to create fantasy aircraft or weapon systems, it will remain a NATO advantaged sim.

[Irisz]

48 minutes ago, Ironhand said:

In this, I partially agree. While I don’t usually feel like a target drone, life can be more challenging for a Flanker pilot. But, once ED decided to go the DCS route, the sim no longer had much to do with balance for several reasons, most of which ED cannot control. So unless they decide to create fantasy aircraft or weapon systems, it will remain a NATO advantaged sim.

Finally someone understands my criticism! Thank you comrade!

 

I don't really want to go into the topic because I'm still a target because I don't stand with the crowd who deify ED and I unconditionally praise everything they do. Anyone who criticizes immediately becomes an enemy. It's strange to them that there are people who don't stand in the crowd! So sorry, I've had enough arguments. I don't want to have the ED marketing text read to me fifty more times.
Sometimes criticism comes in handy because it sheds light on things that are missing from DCS World.

In short, the FC3 code is owned by ED, so NO ONE can access it. Neither does Deka. That's why we won't have more modern toys. And since many people are not able to articulate the whys and hows, I remain silent because there is no point in the discussion, because it depends on ED whether it helps someone make more FC3 products or not.
If he allowed it, the J-11A would have been corrected in air-to-air mode for years. Several documents show what N001VE can do. Because of this decision to say NO, things stand still.

We could have a LOW radar repeat frequency against helicopters, next to HIGH-MED-ILV!
We could simultaneously attack 2 targets with an R-77 missile in an ECM interference environment. The radar would not switch to STT mode in such an environment.
The range of the radar would be 120 km instead of 100 km!

If Deka was interested in the matter, he would take the J-11A out of the FC3 and the JF-17 is similar to the MFI 55, build an air-to-ground mode in this style and give it to ED to put it in the FC3 product!
That way, no military secrets would be violated and no one would cry about such a topic on the forum for 10 years.

 

And now I'll show you why I say that Deka deliberately doesn't want to do what he promised us, and for 6 years we've been waiting and getting nothing, even though everything is already there in DCS World!

You will be amazed by what I show you and I hope you understand why I am saying this!

This picture is from the Su 34 cockpit and shows the MFI-55 radar mode in BVR mode!

Look at the cockpit of the Su-34 and you can see these MFI-55 LCD displays!

DCS World's JF-17 cockpit with the same mode! It's been there for years, it just needs to be transferred to the J-11A. In addition to this, in a simplified form so that it is not too difficult to manage the air-to-ground modes so that the OLS-27 can target and, say, the Su-25T type of targeting to the ground radars so that you can use the KH-31P missile. Although in this mode, we could use the KH-59M, which could also be controlled via a TV camera. Same with the KAB-500KR or if you have the KAB-1500KR. How many weapons are new in the DCS world, how attractive are they?

I won't go into detail about how fun this would be and we would have a Su-27SM-level Flanker!

But unfortunately, either because of the violation of military secrets or because Deka is lazy and unable to do it. In 6 years, you can develop a complete module for sale to DCS World. Here, there would only be a display with a new avionics, everything else is ready!

In short, this is why it annoys me that there is no MFI-55 in the J-11A, in 2018 I came back to DCS World because of the J-11A. I bought Flaming Cliffs 3 twice from the E shop because I even deleted my account before I got so bored with the DCS World target drone simulator. This MFI-55 literally made my blood boil and made me feel like a kid again when I fell in love with FC2, but this would have been even better, even more awesome. The perfect dream Flanker! The real dream would be the FC3 Su-37, but ED and no one else can make such a big dream come true, so I would have settled for the J-11A!

Sad story!

Thanks to everyone who understands this!

Edited May 23, 2024 by Irisz

[draconus]

41 minutes ago, Irisz said:

I don't want to have the ED marketing text read to me fifty more times.

Or they are simple reasons and facts on why we can't have modern Russian aircraft modeled in DCS no matter how much we or ED wants it.

Why don't you just:

Edited May 23, 2024 by draconus

[Ironhand]

40 minutes ago, Irisz said:

Finally someone understands my criticism! Thank you comrade!

 

I don't really want to go into the topic because I'm still a target because I don't stand with the crowd who deify ED and I unconditionally praise everything they do. Anyone who criticizes immediately becomes an enemy. It's strange to them that there are people who don't stand in the crowd! So sorry, I've had enough arguments. I don't want to have the ED marketing text read to me fifty more times.
Sometimes criticism comes in handy because it sheds light on things that are missing from DCS World.

In short, the FC3 code is owned by ED, so NO ONE can access it. Neither does Deka. That's why we won't have more modern toys. And since many people are not able to articulate the whys and hows, I remain silent because there is no point in the discussion, because it depends on ED whether it helps someone make more FC3 products or not.
If he allowed it, the J-11A would have been corrected in air-to-air mode for years. Several documents show what N001VE can do. Because of this decision to say NO, things stand still.

We could have a LOW radar repeat frequency against helicopters, next to HIGH-MED-ILV!
We could simultaneously attack 2 targets with an R-77 missile in an ECM interference environment. The radar would not switch to STT mode in such an environment.
The range of the radar would be 120 km instead of 100 km!

If Deka was interested in the matter, he would take the J-11A out of the FC3 and the JF-17 is similar to the MFI 55, build an air-to-ground mode in this style and give it to ED to put it in the FC3 product!
That way, no military secrets would be violated and no one would cry about such a topic on the forum for 10 years.

 

And now I'll show you why I say that Deka deliberately doesn't want to do what he promised us, and for 6 years we've been waiting and getting nothing, even though everything is already there in DCS World!

You will be amazed by what I show you and I hope you understand why I am saying this!

This picture is from the Su 34 cockpit and shows the MFI-55 radar mode in BVR mode!

Look at the cockpit of the Su-34 and you can see these MFI-55 LCD displays!

DCS World's JF-17 cockpit with the same mode! It's been there for years, it just needs to be transferred to the J-11A. In addition to this, in a simplified form so that it is not too difficult to manage the air-to-ground modes so that the OLS-27 can target and, say, the Su-25T type of targeting to the ground radars so that you can use the KH-31P missile. Although in this mode, we could use the KH-59M, which could also be controlled via a TV camera. Same with the KAB-500KR or if you have the KAB-1500KR. How many weapons are new in the DCS world, how attractive are they?

I won't go into detail about how fun this would be and we would have a Su-27SM-level Flanker!

But unfortunately, either because of the violation of military secrets or because Deka is lazy and unable to do it. In 6 years, you can develop a complete module for sale to DCS World. Here, there would only be a display with a new avionics, everything else is ready!

In short, this is why it annoys me that there is no MFI-55 in the J-11A, in 2018 I came back to DCS World because of the J-11A. I bought Flaming Cliffs 3 twice from the E shop because I even deleted my account before I got so bored with the DCS World target drone simulator. This MFI-55 literally made my blood boil and made me feel like a kid again when I fell in love with FC2, but this would have been even better, even more awesome. The perfect dream Flanker! The real dream would be the FC3 Su-37, but ED and no one else can make such a big dream come true, so I would have settled for the J-11A!

Sad story!

Thanks to everyone who understands this!

 

The issue with DCS is that they will NOT model something for which they do not have official documentation, either legally available on the web (released by the manufacturer to the public) or provided directly to them by the manufacturer. They will not "model" something based on photographs and a general description. FC3 had become the DCS foster child, still looked after (bug fixes) but no longer nurtured (added functionality) because it was the only way to keep REDFOR aircraft in the sim. And, since it was being kept alive, they decided to get some additional use from it with FC4. I'm fine with that simply because I've been in ED's Su-27 pits since the late 1990's and am happy not to give it up. But even though FC4 is not full fidelity, that doesn't mean that ED is willing to change what they use as data to model something. Whether FC4 or a full fidelity module, they will base what they do only on official documentation. That's something I can live with for selfish reasons. If you cannot, then you will be constantly frustrated.

[Irisz]

Part of it is already ready, only the two legends are missing!

[Ramius007]

If we are getting FF Mig-29, We can definitely see Su-22 or Mig-25 coming as well, but sad part is that expected revenues from those will be smaller than from western jets, so DCS destiny is blue vs red inbalance in MOST setups. 2 mentioned jets are interesting projects for some new 3rd party developer to enter DCS World imo

[Johnny Dioxin]

I've been quietly and patiently waiting for FC4 to come along, but there's nothing in it for me, so I'll be passing on this one. I have the FF modules of the new aircraft included - the one attraction was aircraft that aren't available elsewhere and if that's not going to be the case there's really no point for me - even at $10