waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[nessuno0505]

The difference between this and yak-52 or combined arms is that the f-15 is a new module still on the hype train and not an old project almost abandoned / in undefined pause. Moreover, if a core update should introduce a blocking bug for some of these old projects, that would be sorted; with the f-15 you can't say the same since RB have decided to halt development and publicly stated that. The reason why RB went public is quite obvious IMHO: they had to justify the halt on a new freshly released product. In addition, the real issue of all this situation is not the f-15 (still a early access module) but the m2000c and for some extent the av-8b: technically finished modules that will degrade over time without none to maintain.

[OSIW]

How do we know that what ever happened between ED and RB doesn`t happen again with different third party devs?

Edited May 21 by OSIW

[BigBorner]

7 minutes ago, OSIW said:

How do we know that what ever happened between ED and RB doesn`t happen again with different third party devs?

 

No way of knowing that. 

A certain risks is always involved. Its even possible ED goes down the Drain at some point. Thats just how the world works, especially in terms of digital goods that you do not own, but are allowed to use as long as the people you bought the license from deem it appropriate. 

[OSIW]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb BigBorner:

No way of knowing that. 

A certain risks is always involved. Its even possible ED goes down the Drain at some point. Thats just how the world works, especially in terms of digital goods that you do not own, but are allowed to use as long as the people you bought the license from deem it appropriate. 

I think it`s juridically not entirely clear, if we are just allowed to play a game because we bought a license, or if we do in fact own a copy of that game.

But you`re right. There is no way of knowing that.

In theory it`s possible that RB didn`t mess up anything but instead ED did. Then it`s also possible that ED does the same shady move with other devs too. E.g. Heatblur, which will release the F-4 tomorrow, which then also won`t be finished like RB`s F-15.

So it seems wise not to buy any early access stuff for the moment, right?

[BigBorner]

1 hour ago, OSIW said:

I think it`s juridically not entirely clear, if we are just allowed to play a game because we bought a license, or if we do in fact own a copy of that game.

 

So it seems wise not to buy any early access stuff for the moment, right?

As per License Agreement its pretty clear

a few unstructured thoughts; 

Its as wise - or not wise - as it ever was and ever will be to buy early access. I dont think it makes any sense to stop buying 3rd Partys "just" because of that drama now. Even if you just buy 3rd Party stuff out of early access - if they stop maintaining it, it will stop working at some point. 

Thing is; either you accept that this is the way it is - or you dont. Which means dont buy anything DCS anymore. 

Sure, if you buy 3rd Party Modules you have an additional layer of risk. They might get bancrupt or just say "screw it". Completely independent on why that happens. 

If the contract that has been published is real, ED should have the Option to take over the source codes under defined circumstances - so its maybe not twice the risk as buying only from ED. 

 

At the end of the day: ED is a for profit company. They need money to keep working(yeah, yeah, Razbam, too.).

Just assume everybody gangs up to "teach ED a lesson" and income flow stops / drops to a non sustainable point. Well, happy birthday. You just tought yourself a lesson what it means to bankcrupt a monopolist. It means: No DCS anymore. And there is no alternative (at least not for me). 

 

 

 

[Gizmo03]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb OSIW:

So it seems wise not to buy any early access stuff for the moment, right?

It has nothing to do with EA. If RB and ED don‘t find a solution and the RB modules won‘t be maintained anymore we will also lose the M2K and the Harrier. Both are not EA anymore. If the same happens with HB we would also lose the Viggen, with M3LL we would lose the MiG-21. You can buy a final release version. If they f#%@k it up 6 month after final release you might lose your module a couple of patches later or maybe even after the very next update.

[Cab]

5 minutes ago, Gizmo03 said:

It has nothing to do with EA. If RB and ED don‘t find a solution and the RB modules won‘t be maintained anymore we will also lose the M2K and the Harrier. Both are not EA anymore. If the same happens with HB we would also lose the Viggen, with M3LL we would lose the MiG-21. You can buy a final release version. If they f#%@k it up 6 month after final release you might lose your module a couple of patches later or maybe even after the very next update.

ED has said there is a requirement for 3rd party devs to turn over their source code if they stop supporting DCS. If this is true and part of a contract obligation, ED could likely sue if it's not done.

Have there been any developments to indicate this isn't true?

Edited May 21 by Cab

[Koziolek]

5 minutes ago, Cab said:

Have there been any developments to indicate this isn't true?

 

There were hints on Discord from one of the RB employee that ED does not own the code

[Cab]

Just now, Koziolek said:

There were hints on Discord from one of the RB employee that ED does not own the code

Yes, I read those and chalk them up to bluster. IMO unless it comes from management, it isn't worth considering.

 

[Gizmo03]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Cab:

ED has said there is a requirement for 3rd party devs to turn over their source code if they stop supporting DCS. If this is true and part of a contract obligation, ED could likely sue if it's not done.

Have there been any developments to indicate this isn't true?

 

Yes that‘s right but did you read the last „couple of pages“ of this thread? As soon as someone says anything about this there are at least 3 or 4 „experts“ yelling that this would take decades if it is even possible at all to take over foreign code and continue the work on the module.

And that‘s why i think i will stop reading this thread here from now on. I‘m always in a bad mood after reading here because about 90% of all the post here are just pessimistic. As soon as someone mentions that there might still be hope that everything continues as planned it seems like most of the people here just want to destroy all of it again and continue with drama.

[Cab]

2 minutes ago, Gizmo03 said:

Yes that‘s right but did you read the last „couple of pages“ of this thread? As soon as someone says anything about this there are at least 3 or 4 „experts“ yelling that this would take decades if it is even possible at all to take over foreign code and continue the work on the module.

And that‘s why i think i will stop reading this thread here from now on. I‘m always in a bad mood after reading here because about 90% of all the post here are just pessimistic. As soon as someone mentions that there might still be hope that everything continues as planned it seems like most of the people here just want to destroy all of it again and continue with drama.

You and me, brother

[Gizmo03]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb Cab:

You and me, brother

Good to know

[Cab]

Just now, Gizmo03 said:

Good to know

[Art-J]

I'd like to remind that in early days of the whole kerfuffle some Russian members of ED top brass were arguing on the Russian part of the forum (where more info is often available compared to English one) that taking over and developing the Eagle was not their problem/business as they considered ED to be more of a distribution platform rather than producer for this particular piece of software. There was a link to that thread posted either here on one of previous pages, or in one of the other threads, not gonna waste time looking for it again. I didn't check what the final conclusion was. In either case, in worst scenario, if solution isn't found and RAZBAM calls it quits, it doesn't seem like ED is going to rush to "save" the Eagle, Harrier and Mirage or if they even have capability (source codes) to do so.

As for any EA preorder, there's never and wil never be a guarantee that product is going to be worked on. The only certain thing is a hefty pre-order discount and If you consider it to be a good deal even for incomplete product, buy it (as I did with F-4), if not, don't buy it. It's your money and your risk management.

[Cab]

1 hour ago, Art-J said:

I'd like to remind that in early days of the whole kerfuffle some Russian members of ED top brass were arguing on the Russian part of the forum (where more info is often available compared to English one) that taking over and developing the Eagle was not their problem/business as they considered ED to be more of a distribution platform rather than producer for this particular piece of software. There was a link to that thread posted either here on one of previous pages, or in one of the other threads, not gonna waste time looking for it again. I didn't check what the final conclusion was. In either case, in worst scenario, if solution isn't found and RAZBAM calls it quits, it doesn't seem like ED is going to rush to "save" the Eagle, Harrier and Mirage or if they even have capability (source codes) to do so.

As for any EA preorder, there's never and wil never be a guarantee that product is going to be worked on. The only certain thing is a hefty pre-order discount and If you consider it to be a good deal even for incomplete product, buy it (as I did with F-4), if not, don't buy it. It's your money and your risk management.

Maybe, maybe not. But after the VEAO Hawk debacle, ED has gone out of their way to assure customers that steps had been taken to prevent it from happening in the future. I can't imagine the blowback if that turns out to not be true.

Let's hope we don't have to find out.

Edit: I never got the impression from ED that there's a commitment to continue development, but rather just to keep it working with new updates.

Edited May 21 by Cab

[Ornithopter]

I had really been hoping for more of an update after this long a time.  I was starting to get the hang of the Strike Eagle.  My lack of confidence in a satisfactory and timely resolution dims my interest in the module, and since I doubt it will ever be "complete" insofar as that term is relative, I don't feel like continuing with it.  And what about all of the other RAZBAM modules I have?  Will they start breaking after DCS updates? Still hoping that there is a resolution, but increasingly feel like there isn't going to be one, and that I've payed for a module that will no longer evolve towards completion.  And, as much as I hate to ask, does ED ever consider refunds, even in a situation like this?

 

Edited May 21 by Ornithopter

[lee1hy]

 

6 hours ago, BigBorner said:

No way of knowing that. 

A certain risks is always involved. Its even possible ED goes down the Drain at some point. Thats just how the world works, especially in terms of digital goods that you do not own, but are allowed to use as long as the people you bought the license from deem it appropriate. 

its funny we don't know the exact reason, but it's also very funny to just blame ED.

open detail then we understand it  or wait 

 

Edited May 21 by lee1hy

[Fisu_MAD]

This is the status 

[BigBorner]

1 hour ago, lee1hy said:

 

its funny we don't know the exact reason, but it's also very funny to just blame ED.

open detail then we understand it  or wait 

 

 

I didn’t blame anyone

[Pipe]

1 hour ago, lee1hy said:

 

its funny we don't know the exact reason, but it's also very funny to just blame ED.

open detail then we understand it  or wait 

 

Not 100% sure but I dont think anyone would sign a contract that has a;

Oh BTW if you piss us off, we will not pay you clause

Edited May 21 by Pipe

[Cab]

1 hour ago, Pipe said:

Not 100% sure but I dont think anyone would sign a contract that has a;

Oh BTW if you piss us off, we will not pay you clause

 

I’m sure you’re correct.

[Hawkeye_UK]

ED / Razbam,

Given the last code update we had in game for the F15 was on the 22nd Feb this year, 3 months ago and given that there was a very public dispute nearly 2 months ago, what is the latest?  Are we going to be pleasantly surprised tomorrow with a code update?

As a consumer what can we expect from this module going forward if this is not the case?

I asked on the 5th April should the module be on sale, given the issues, i've not seen or heard any further updates and apologise if i have missed them, if not can you clarify including timeframes say to the nearest quarter year what your resonable expectations are in terms of development and what is going on to make this happen.

I think silence is ok for a few months, but after that I think its only right that you update your customers.

Edited May 22 by Hawkeye_UK

[scommander2]

People are talking about the related issue at:

 

[Rhinozherous]

I already have written off on razbam and its modules... 

[PD919]

20 hours ago, Art-J said:

I'd like to remind that in early days of the whole kerfuffle some Russian members of ED top brass were arguing on the Russian part of the forum (where more info is often available compared to English one) that taking over and developing the Eagle was not their problem/business as they considered ED to be more of a distribution platform rather than producer for this particular piece of software. There was a link to that thread posted either here on one of previous pages, or in one of the other threads, not gonna waste time looking for it again. I didn't check what the final conclusion was. In either case, in worst scenario, if solution isn't found and RAZBAM calls it quits, it doesn't seem like ED is going to rush to "save" the Eagle, Harrier and Mirage or if they even have capability (source codes) to do so.

As for any EA preorder, there's never and wil never be a guarantee that product is going to be worked on. The only certain thing is a hefty pre-order discount and If you consider it to be a good deal even for incomplete product, buy it (as I did with F-4), if not, don't buy it. It's your money and your risk management.

Maybe they can give it to Heatblur so they can implement Jester the WSO.