waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Beirut]

44 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

Take these points w/ a shot of Jameson, . . . 
 

 

I believe you meant to say "Jim Beam", good sir. 

[Horns]

1 hour ago, SkateZilla said:

Take these points w/ a shot of Jameson, as they have not been confirmed by ED.

A. According to RB Devs, they lost access to dev tools etc.

B. They stopped updating because they were not wanting to continue working for free. *working in the BG would still be working for free*

C. Several members have stated they are gone already. *confirmed from those devs directly that they are already in positions elsewhere*

D. Users claiming to be close to RB, or even repeating what's been said elsewhere goes against every reason this thread exists. if it's not in an official announcement by either ED or RB Ceo/Ron, then it's speculative. That being said, the Map team is a separate entity, and I believe M2M is still working on things, because honestly most of what he does adds to their portfolio for other sims/contract/whatevers.

 

Roger, shot per word incoming.

Edit: I love all you mofos

Edited August 16, 2024 by Horns
Drunkenness

[Slippa]

2 minutes ago, Horns said:

Roger, shot per word incoming.

Edit: I love all you mofos

 

Step away from the keyboard Horns. One or the other mate, believe me, one or the other. 

[SkateZilla]

Believe the plural is Mofi

[=DROOPY=]

I love me some Jameson Black Barrel...

Man that's good stuff, and I will get myself in some serious trouble if I'm not supervised when it's around.

Jameson Black Barrel, an Acid Blondie Cigar, and a bonfire.....

[felixx75]

On 8/14/2024 at 6:54 PM, NineLine said:

This is the issue with these discussions, here or anywhere. Nobody knows all the facts here. even some of those that claim they do, don't. So going in circles trying to figure out what happened, what is happening, etc is just tail chasing at this point. It's best to just continue to wait, the process is progressing at typical speeds for such issues. 

This is probably the 200th time you've written this and you'll probably write it another 200 times. It's best to copy and save the text and paste it again if necessary... 

[NineLine]

23 minutes ago, felixx75 said:

This is probably the 200th time you've written this and you'll probably write it another 200 times. It's best to copy and save the text and paste it again if necessary... 

I do feel like we are currently swimming in circles. 

[Dallenbach]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb NineLine:

Ich habe das Gefühl, dass wir uns gerade im Kreis drehen. 

This is not a feeling, this is the truth. It's just that most people on this thread don't realize it.

[TKhaos]

4 hours ago, NineLine said:

I do feel like we are currently swimming in circles. 

That's because there are so many armchair experts and people that read something on Reddit and take it as gospel, then spread it around and every time it gets something added to it

The end user has suffered as a result of the dispute, and may feel like they have a right to know every little thing that's happening when in fact they don't, regardless of how it came about both parties issued a public statement. The rest of what is going on should be kept between relevant people within RB and ED, plus there legal teams.

If, in the worst case scenario this ends up in court the legal teams will use anything and everything to win the case, so idle gossip could end up resulting in one party losing the case and being severely out of pocket. Both legal teams, regardless of what stage talks are at would have told their clients to keep it shut and not disclose anything.

As irritating as it is people just need to be patient and let it play out, even then people probably won't be fully aware of what it was all about other than what the result is.   

Edited August 16, 2024 by TKhaos

[afnav130]

4 hours ago, TKhaos said:

That's because there are so many armchair experts and people that read something on Reddit and take it as gospel, then spread it around and every time it gets something added to it

The end user has suffered as a result of the dispute, and may feel like they have a right to know every little thing that's happening when in fact they don't, regardless of how it came about both parties issued a public statement. The rest of what is going on should be kept between relevant people within RB and ED, plus there legal teams.

If, in the worst case scenario this ends up in court the legal teams will use anything and everything to win the case, so idle gossip could end up resulting in one party losing the case and being severely out of pocket. Both legal teams, regardless of what stage talks are at would have told their clients to keep it shut and not disclose anything.

As irritating as it is people just need to be patient and let it play out, even then people probably won't be fully aware of what it was all about other than what the result is.   

 

If you read between the lines, the messaging from one side about what happened hasn't changed or varied in any way. The other gives a canned legalese answer that quite frankly doesn't create any good feelings. At this point I would think anything will take a year at least to resolve. ED still hasn't put a notification on the page for the E model informing people that they are buying an as it stands currently, a dead module. Thats kind of shady if you ask me. Want to keep selling it and not paying the devs? Fine, but put a big red banner that says has not been updated in 5 months and no end in sight. 

 

 

[Oban]

Right on cue..

[TKhaos]

1 hour ago, afnav130 said:

If you read between the lines, the messaging from one side about what happened hasn't changed or varied in any way.

That actually works both ways, the old saying "keep lies short and simple and don't keep adding to them" as that's the quickest way people get caught out. On the other hand saying nothing can also be seen as a sign that you are the guilty party, so not good either way.

 

1 hour ago, afnav130 said:

The other gives a canned legalese answer

That's most likely because they are following the instructions of their legal teams. Theres already been a public statement by both parties, followed by another one from ED saying nothing further would be discussed until the dispute is over.

 

1 hour ago, afnav130 said:

ED still hasn't put a notification on the page for the E model informing people that they are buying an as it stands currently, a dead module.

There might come a time when they put a notification up or pull the module. The trouble with that is, it will open another can of worms and this dispute will drag on even longer then and none of us are privy to what the actual arrangement is between ED and RB regarding that module.

End of the day there are loads of gaming sites and services that are selling EA products and some are dead after a few months or haven't been updated for years so it's not like it's just an ED/RB thing.   

 

1 hour ago, afnav130 said:

Want to keep selling it and not paying the devs

When it comes to the issue of payment, the only way you can confirm 100% whats happened is either if both parties make a statement about it, which is never going to happen or seeing the terms and conditions of the contract between ED and RB. No one knows what's in that contract, what payment terms where agreed or anything else.

 

1 hour ago, afnav130 said:

Thats kind of shady if you ask me

Again if you look at both sides of the story while it may be shady, it's also shady to stick some coding in that renders a function within a module useless at a given time and date, it doesn't exactly scream trustworthy. What if that had been a trojan, virus, malware or whatever because it's common knowledge that most people just whitelist DCS files and folders.

ED and RB had a contract, yes there are issues between them but when it comes down to it RB should be paying their employees/contractors directly regardless of what the financial agreements were with ED.

I'm not defending either side, both have made errors of judgement but people have quickly taken sides based on very little actual knowledge of what exactly is going on.

Edited August 17, 2024 by TKhaos

[afnav130]

16 minutes ago, TKhaos said:

That actually works both ways, the old saying "keep lies short and simple and don't keep adding to them" as that's the quickest way people get caught out. On the other hand saying nothing can also be seen as a sign that you are the guilty party, so not good either way.

 

That's most likely because they are following the instructions of their legal teams. Theres already been a public statement by both parties, followed by another one from ED saying nothing further would be discussed until the dispute is over.

 

There might come a time when they put a notification up or pull the module. The trouble with that is, it will open another can of worms and this dispute will drag on even longer then and none of us are privy to what the actual arrangement is between ED and RB regarding that module.

End of the day there are loads of gaming sites and services that are selling EA products and some are dead after a few months or haven't been updated for years so it's not like it's just an ED/RB thing.   

 

When it comes to the issue of payment, the only way you can confirm 100% whats happened is either if both parties make a statement about it, which is never going to happen or seeing the terms and conditions of the contract between ED and RB. No one knows what's in that contract, what payment terms where agreed or anything else.

 

Again if you look at both sides of the story while it may be shady, it's also shady to stick some coding in that renders a function within a module useless at a given time and date, it doesn't exactly scream trustworthy. What if that had been a trojan, virus, malware or whatever because it's common knowledge that most people just whitelist DCS files and folders.

ED and RB had a contract, yes there are issues between them but when it comes down to it RB should be paying their employees/contractors directly regardless of what the financial agreements were with ED.

I'm not defending either side, both have made errors of judgement but people have quickly taken sides based on very little actual knowledge of what exactly is going on.

 

I'm not going to rehash what has been done here about the radar issue. One would have to look in the mirror and ask oneself...why would a coder do that? Why would they even THINK about doing that? The smart answer is self protection. Now, from what is the real question. Only one person can answer that and he ain't talking. 

[TKhaos]

16 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

I'm not going to rehash what has been done here about the radar issue. One would have to look in the mirror and ask oneself...why would a coder do that? Why would they even THINK about doing that? The smart answer is self protection. Now, from what is the real question. Only one person can answer that and he ain't talking. 

Well ED fixed the radar issue so it's irrelevant now and like I said, payment is between that coder and RB, his contract of employment was with them not ED.

If I do a private contract for someone they get a 7 or 30 day invoice depending on that nature of the work. If I don't get paid I don't do any further work. I would never work on a project for months without receiving any payment. If I worked for 'RB' I expect payment from 'RB' who I have the contract with, I don't expect 'ED' to pay me directly as their contract is with 'RB' and nothing to do with me as a third party. Regardless of their terms and conditions they should have enough funds to pay any employee or contractor regardless of how long it takes them to get payment, all that that should be factored in.

Edited August 17, 2024 by TKhaos

[afnav130]

17 minutes ago, TKhaos said:

Well ED fixed the radar issue so it's irrelevant now and like I said, payment is between that coder and RB, his contract of employment was with them not ED.

If I do a private contract for someone they get a 7 or 30 day invoice depending on that nature of the work. If I don't get paid I don't do any further work. I would never work on a project for months without receiving any payment. If I worked for 'RB' I expect payment from 'RB' who I have the contract with, I don't expect 'ED' to pay me directly as their contract is with 'RB' and nothing to do with me as a third party. Regardless of their terms and conditions they should have enough funds to pay any employee or contractor regardless of how long it takes them to get payment, all that that should be factored in.

 

This is very true. The difference is I think they did get paid, at least initially from what I have been told. You are correct it would be ED paying RB then RB paying the devs. That isn't in dispute. The thing is, sometimes in this realm the devs work because they like doing it and hope to get paid for it. At some point it becomes untenable.

 

I will still stand by this. ED has never posted that they have paid in full the monies required for the module sales. Or if they have even paid a portion of it and when if not, when the payments stopped. 

[scommander2]

9 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

ED has never posted that they have paid in full the monies required for the module sales. Or if they have even paid a portion of it and when if not, when the payments stopped. 

It is a good question and it's a company internal operation/decision.  I am only a consumer, will/should ED reveal their internal operation/decision to me?  Maybe not, I guess....

[TKhaos]

29 minutes ago, afnav130 said:

I will still stand by this. ED has never posted that they have paid in full the monies required for the module sales. Or if they have even paid a portion of it and when if not, when the payments stopped. 

I think the reason for that is it's private business which has basically got nothing to do with Joe Public, a private company doesn't have to answer anything unlike public companies, charities or government departments that have to explain everything they do if requested.

It's like me walking into a random business and demanding they tell me who's paid what for their services, they would tell me to do one because it's nothing to do with me. The closest you could get to that in the UK is looking them up on Companies House and looking at their accounts, even then it's going to give an outline to who has been paid what but likely be under a broad heading.

I've been asked quite a lot in the past when I've been doing work somewhere how much I'm paid, every time I give the same answer and that's "sorry but that's my private and personal business and none of your concern" and they generally get all offended. Be interesting to see how people would react if they came out a shop and a random stranger walked up and asked them how much they spent, then demanded to see the receipt

Edited August 17, 2024 by TKhaos

[Guest]

It feels to me that people are so conditioned to think of things as black vs white, good vs. evil, and that every story needs a hero and a villain.  In the vast vast majority of real  life business disputes, there is no good guy or bad guy.  Instead there are two companies acting in good faith that for whatever reason -- usually a miscommunication, misunderstanding, or change of circumstances that was unexpected -- disagree on what should happen.  There is generally no reason for anyone other than people directly involved (or their lawyers) to be taking sides. 

A good rule of thumb IMO is that if you think the issue is simple and one side is obviously right or wrong, that means that you don't have the full facts of the situation.  If it were as simple as you think it is, chances are extremely high that the dispute never would have gotten to the stage it has.

Edited August 17, 2024 by wombat778

[SkateZilla]

16 hours ago, felixx75 said:

This is probably the 200th time you've written this and you'll probably write it another 200 times. It's best to copy and save the text and paste it again if necessary... 

Need a bot auto script, anytime a keyword or every few hours, the bot needs to auto post / reply the same thing

 

[lee1hy]

lol still no answer 

[primus_TR]

7 hours ago, TKhaos said:

If I worked for 'RB' I expect payment from 'RB' who I have the contract with, I don't expect 'ED' to pay me directly as their contract is with 'RB' and nothing to do with me as a third party.

For some reason, some folks refuse to recognize this very simple fact. I could argue what their motivation is,  but it's already obvious. 

Edited August 17, 2024 by primus_TR
big hands, small kyeboard

[TKhaos]

7 hours ago, wombat778 said:

There is generally no reason for anyone other than people directly involved (or their lawyers) to be taking sides.

I pointed this out, people are very quick to take sides when in reality they likely know 10% of what is going on and will most likely will never know the full story. Businesses rarely like airing their dirty washing in public as it damages the brand regardless of the outcome.

Looking at the RB/ED issue as a whole and on-line in general, stories are getting twisted and information added that is nothing more than heresay being spread. It's most likely causing more damage to both parties than the dispute is itself.

Edited August 17, 2024 by TKhaos

[Schmidtfire]

More than anything, I think we need more presence from the top staff, like Nick and Matt.

Staying silent to avoid some sort of legal issue with Razbam is one thing, but I think many players need a confidence-boost regarding the DCS platform. This year started terrific and soon went into a free fall. Phantom Pre-Order had a major delay, then we lost support of 4 Razbam modules (and upcoming MiG-23), Kola and Afghanistan map was released very early to mixed reviews, CH-47F Pre-Order delayed and to top it off Sinai update delayed and deleted part of the map (now fixed). It doesn't help either that the PR seems to be shrinking with less active content creators. There should be a flood of Afghanistan and CH-47F videos, but there isn't.     

Every Friday we get thanked for our passion and support. But we rarely get a glimpse of that passion from the other side of the fence. What is the vision? What does the future hold for DCS in the next 5-10 years?

Things happens in development but it's been a rough 2024. We need some positive winds.

[HWasp]

41 minutes ago, Schmidtfire said:

More than anything, I think we need more presence from the top staff, like Nick and Matt.

Staying silent to avoid some sort of legal issue with Razbam is one thing, but I think many players need a confidence-boost regarding the DCS platform. This year started terrific and soon went into a free fall. Phantom Pre-Order had a major delay, then we lost support of 4 Razbam modules (and upcoming MiG-23), Kola and Afghanistan map was released very early to mixed reviews, CH-47F Pre-Order delayed and to top it off Sinai update delayed and deleted part of the map (now fixed). It doesn't help either that the PR seems to be shrinking with less active content creators. There should be a flood of Afghanistan and CH-47F videos, but there isn't.     

Every Friday we get thanked for our passion and support. But we rarely get a glimpse of that passion from the other side of the fence. What is the vision? What does the future hold for DCS in the next 5-10 years?

Things happens in development but it's been a rough 2024. We need some positive winds.

I agree, especially because the word is out, that this already happened before, it just stayed behind the scenes.

For me, that is very serious. 

[Oban]

3 hours ago, Schmidtfire said:

There should be a flood of Afghanistan and CH-47F videos, but there isn't. 

I dunno, as my YouTube feeds seems to have several cropping up daily, but lets be honest, trying to compare the Chinnok, which is a UTILITY Chopper, to a cutting edge Fighter/Strike aircraft is a no brainer in terms of popularity. I own most of the Chopper modules, and rarely fly them, for me there's nothing appealing about flying the Chinook, spent enough time in them during my miil career in the British Army.

The rotor heads will be happy, but the fighter jocks like myself will be like ... meh, is that all you can do?

Afghanistan.. I wasn't going to buy this, as again, I mainly use Sinai, Syria, and Kola but thought I'd give it a go on trial, and for early access, it's not too shabby, seems a bit too washed out, but having spent 18 years in the Middle East, it often looked "dusty" and washed out, as well as being a shythole. I would think that Afghan map is more a Niche market, the main moan is the lack of carrier operations, which to me doesn't make any sense to a landlocked country, but hey ho, the DCS community are very fickle at times.

Afghan map definately has potential for sure.