waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[Citizen]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Are you sure about that? Why wouldn't those 3rd parties receive hard cash due to sales? As far as I know, store credit ain't Miles, which could lead to non profit for 3rd parties

1 hour ago, WipeUout said:

Why would they not be compensated? The money that was paid for a RB module is simply going back in the virtual pot and then used to pay for another module???  The money would have been going to RB but that specific sale is lost.  Which is an indirect incentive for RB to resolve quicker before they loose a significant portion of the F-15E sales. 

Very good questions.  It's unclear.  "Eagle Dynamics shall pay to the Developer any amount received from end-users in connection with the delivery of the Licensed Modules..."

There's no language that I can see regarding promotional funds like miles or how store credit is handled.  Given that miles aren't compensated and that store credit spent isn't technically an amount received from end users at the time of purchase, I would expect them to be handled similarly.

[MAXsenna]

Very good questions.  It's unclear.  "Eagle Dynamics shall pay to the Developer any amount received from end-users in connection with the delivery of the Licensed Modules..."

There's no language that I can see regarding promotional funds like miles or how store credit is handled.  Given that miles aren't compensated and that store credit spent isn't technically an amount received from end users at the time of purchase, I would expect them to be handled similarly.

I have no clue as to why you would assume that, but people work differently. See @NineLine 's answer above regarding store credit ≠ Miles as I wrote.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[NineLine]

43 minutes ago, Citizen said:

Very good questions.  It's unclear.  "Eagle Dynamics shall pay to the Developer any amount received from end-users in connection with the delivery of the Licensed Modules..."

There's no language that I can see regarding promotional funds like miles or how store credit is handled.  Given that miles aren't compensated and that store credit spent isn't technically an amount received from end users at the time of purchase, I would expect them to be handled similarly.

I'm not sure why it would be unclear other than this is a special circumstance. However, as any refund might go where the user is basically exchanging modules, the sale would be like any normal sale for that 3rd Party. I know there is another narrative out there but the mat doesn't math for that theory. 

[exhausted]

1 hour ago, Oban said:

Where's the mischaracterisation ?
At least two Razbam Dev's who have been involved in leaking snippets of conversations have been instrumental in why the current situation has gone from bad to worse. Whilst legal proceddings are ongoing, I'd say they're not helping the situation, they're making things worse.

You mention Razbams claims having substance, but no mention whether ED's counter claims have any substance, once again, are you in possesion of all the signed contracts between both parties.

The responsibility of paying Razbams 3rd party contractors lies solely within Razbam, and has nothing to do with Eagle Dynamics, their contracts are with Razbam, what's so difficult to understand?

Not one of those Dev's has shown their own personal interactions with Razbam Finance department, or through their legal representatives , not a shred of proof of their own legal recourse against their contractor, ie Razbam has been presented. Blind loyalty perhaps?

There's only 2 publically known facts here.
1. Razbam had payment from Eagle Dynamics withheld for alleged breach(es) of contract

2. Eagle Dynamics as above claim breach of contract, to include alleged Intelectual Property (IP) infringments

People have a lot of reasons for doubting BOTH sides, by people, you mean the consumer right? I'm also willing to bet that a lot of those doubters don't own the Strike Eagle, the module mostly affected by this fiasco, they're agent provocateurs... and I only see one party of this fiasco making a lot of noise and leaking stuff, whilst the other party made a single statement and has not veered from that.

So there's no mischaraterisation whatsoever

The issue with all this characterizing is, how do you know things went from bad to worse? The second they lawyered up, they reached their lowest points. But, as a layman you are not considering that the courts and the lawyers will consider more than the signed documents. There is a lot of probative evidence here, beyond what's in the contracts and even if you are a lawyer you should be able to see that you cannot predict the outcome just with the messages the lawyers approved before being posted on the internet. Those leaks you dismiss actually 'move the needle' and whether they are allowed into a trial, if this even gets to trial, is an open question. ED's pattern of conduct would lead many of us to believe they have a sloppy contract, at best. And that increases the likelihood that Razbam's claims are parole evidence that could be factored into a decision about fault.

Does knowing this make me a provocateur? I hope not, but you shouldn't be so quick to judge others when their only crime is disagreeing with you when you think you have it all figured out.

1 hour ago, Mizzy said:

Ignore him Oban, he just likes the sound of his own voice and causing trouble.

Mizzy

I'm barely in this thread, and you are on every page -- whether or not anybody is listening -- so, who could possibly like the sound of their own voice as much as yourself? Try to stay on topic and, once again, stop lashing out.

[SkateZilla]

3 hours ago, Citizen said:

The questionable part to me is that a significant number of folks will use store credit to purchase other 3rd party modules, and those third parties won't be compensated.  Essentially, this moves a portion of the debt to other 3rd parties.

Regardless of how people feel about ED or RB, I think we can all agree that an entity such as Polychop, OnReTech, IFE etc didn't do anything in this situation that would necessitate them not being paid for their work.

A sale is a sale, whether it's paid for by Visa, Paypal, or ED Credits.
As far as the backend sees, ED Credits (NOT MILES) is an internal currency. ED Miles are a loyalty rewards system and not a currency.

So they more than likely would be compensated.

2 hours ago, exhausted said:

Did you not see Nineline's message? Mischaracterizing someone's position is in the same vein as name calling. If you think about it, the entire issue would have gone away if RB's claims did not have substance. People have a lot of reasons for doubting the other side and supporting the information available, whether it comes from a lawyer's mouth or not.

If there was any ill intent in my post it was not intentional, and had it violated any preset guidelines, it would've been purged with the last group to be purged.

One could argue the opposite point, If RB had "a leg to stand on", they would have taken steps to resolve or dissolve the situation to a method that suits them by now.

 

Edited September 9, 2024 by SkateZilla

[NineLine]

34 minutes ago, exhausted said:

The issue with all this characterizing is, how do you know things went from bad to worse? The second they lawyered up, they reached their lowest points. But, as a layman you are not considering that the courts and the lawyers will consider more than the signed documents. There is a lot of probative evidence here, beyond what's in the contracts and even if you are a lawyer you should be able to see that you cannot predict the outcome just with the messages the lawyers approved before being posted on the internet. Those leaks you dismiss actually 'move the needle' and whether they are allowed into a trial, if this even gets to trial, is an open question. ED's pattern of conduct would lead many of us to believe they have a sloppy contract, at best. And that increases the likelihood that Razbam's claims are parole evidence that could be factored into a decision about fault.

Does knowing this make me a provocateur? I hope not, but you shouldn't be so quick to judge others when their only crime is disagreeing with you when you think you have it all figured out.

I'm barely in this thread, and you are on every page -- whether or not anybody is listening -- so, who could possibly like the sound of their own voice as much as yourself? Try to stay on topic and, once again, stop lashing out.

It's enough now, we are only going on official info, that is all that can be and will be discussed here.

Also if you guys want to argue amongst yourselves, you are welcome to take it to DMs, we don't need it here. And this goes for EVERYONE, I am not picking on one person on this point. 

[Citizen]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

However, as any refund might go where the user is basically exchanging modules, the sale would be like any normal sale for that 3rd Party.

That's excellent news.  You're correct that there is another narrative out there, but an official statement to the contrary is welcome!

Since 3rd parties are compensated for store credit purchases in the same way as normal purchases, I personally see no ethical problems with store credit as a refund.

[Mizzy]

5 hours ago, exhausted said:

Did you not see Nineline's message? Mischaracterizing someone's position is in the same vein as name calling. If you think about it, the entire issue would have gone away if RB's claims did not have substance. People have a lot of reasons for doubting the other side and supporting the information available, whether it comes from a lawyer's mouth or not.

You said to me in the last thread not to bother each other and I agreed. But you broke this agreement and you are still jumping on my posts. You obviously do not stand by your agreements with others. So, if Razbam have been discovered to have unsubstantiated claims, will you go away as well, or will you continue to argue you were right even when you are wrong. Keep to your agreement with me to ignore each other.. please. 

[exhausted]

1 hour ago, Mizzy said:

You said to me in the last thread not to bother each other and I agreed. But you broke this agreement and you are still jumping on my posts. You obviously do not stand by your agreements with others. So, if Razbam have been discovered to have unsubstantiated claims, will you go away as well, or will you continue to argue you were right even when you are wrong. Keep to your agreement with me to ignore each other.. please. 

I don't know what it is you think you're talking about, but no such agreement with me is a reason for you to break the rules and badger posters with insults and name calling. The fatal flaws of your modus operandi cannot be resolved with any level of supposed deal making. You must treat everyone with respect; it is perfectly fine if you want to shut out everyone else's point of view, but it must be done without a grand stage presence and faked persecution. 

[NineLine]

5 hours ago, Mizzy said:

You said to me in the last thread not to bother each other and I agreed. But you broke this agreement and you are still jumping on my posts. You obviously do not stand by your agreements with others. So, if Razbam have been discovered to have unsubstantiated claims, will you go away as well, or will you continue to argue you were right even when you are wrong. Keep to your agreement with me to ignore each other.. please. 

 

3 hours ago, exhausted said:

I don't know what it is you think you're talking about, but no such agreement with me is a reason for you to break the rules and badger posters with insults and name calling. The fatal flaws of your modus operandi cannot be resolved with any level of supposed deal making. You must treat everyone with respect; it is perfectly fine if you want to shut out everyone else's point of view, but it must be done without a grand stage presence and faked persecution. 

Maybe you both should take a break from this thread, go enjoy some DCS, go enjoy another game, just go enjoy something. None of this bickering will do anything but leave ill will long after this is settled. 

[draconus]

6 hours ago, Mizzy said:

Keep to your agreement with me to ignore each other.. please.

There's also this option:

[mikey69420]

10 hours ago, Citizen said:

That's excellent news.  You're correct that there is another narrative out there, but an official statement to the contrary is welcome!

Since 3rd parties are compensated for store credit purchases in the same way as normal purchases, I personally see no ethical problems with store credit as a refund.

With all due respect and I hope I'm not misunderstanding here but whilst you may be right that there are no ethical problems to the third parties if they get paid real money, there is still very much an ethical problem to the customers.

People paid 80 bucks for the F15E that is abandoned. By "refunding" in virtual store credits, ED hopes that people would take interest in other DCS products when in reality I don't know why you or ED assume that people would want to buy anything else on the DCS store. People paid for the promise of a fully simulated F15E down the road, if they don't receive that, then ED should refund real money to the people and let them buy another DCS product with it if they wish so, just don't force useless store credits upon them.

Just look at this situation, a new customer goes on the ED store because he is interested in only the F15E, he goes on the store page for that module which is still present and sees ZERO disclaimer whatsoever that it's being potentially abandoned, the only disclaimer is about it being in early access which states:" Eagle Dynamics and all of our third parties strive to make this period as short as possible. Once the module exits Early Access, you will automatically have the Release version." Reading this one would naturally expect the module to be continuously developed until it is fully and accurately simulated within reasonable extent. Now after some time he finds out that the updates are not coming and asks a refund only to receive some store credit that isn't at all what he paid for.

Tell me how exactly is this ethical to the customer ?

Imagine if I paid a plane ticket to Paris and after some time the company tells me that the plane can't fly there so the only option they give me is to accept a plane ticket to London, how does that make any sense ?

I am not oblivious, of course ED are doing this to cut every single penny out of their losses, but they are doing so in a very unethical manner towards the customer.

Edited September 10, 2024 by mikey69420

[draconus]

1 hour ago, mikey69420 said:

Reading this one would naturally expect the module to be continuously developed until it is fully and accurately simulated within reasonable extent.

Why would you expect that? The store page doesn't say so. Early access definition only says that it's incomplete and with bugs but nowhere the list can be found what does that completion include. You accept that the product cannot be refunded when buying so it is provided to you as a kind option. And you accept the license with:

Quote

3.2 You acknowledge that the Program has not been developed to meet your individual requirements and that it is therefore your responsibility to ensure that the facilities and functions of the Program as described in the Documentation meet your requirements.
3.3 You acknowledge that the Program may not be free of errors or bugs and you agree that the existence of any minor errors shall not constitute a breach of this Licence.

I'm not saying the ED marketing is crystal clear or ethical, just know what you buy into and be realistic.

The module is not abandoned - it is supported in current condition and the updates are on hold until further notice.

Oh, and no one paid 80 bucks.

Edited September 10, 2024 by draconus

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

The module is not abandoned - it is supported in current condition and the updates are on hold until further notice.

 

Curious if the updates have been made and are being held back, or there has been no work done at all.

 

Maybe when ED and RB take a long hot shower together again, we get months worth of updates released. A nice thought anyway. 

[BIGNEWY]

Just now, Beirut said:

 

Curious if the updates have been made and are being held back, or there has been no work done at all.

 

Maybe when ED and RB take a long hot shower together again, we get months worth of updates released. A nice thought anyway. 

It is not something that will be discussed in public. When we have a resolution we will let you all know, but until then nothing can be shared. RAZBAM going public with the dispute does not change anything. 

We all hope for a good outcome.

thank you 

[TheFreshPrince]

5 months TM

[Tvrdi]

I see they even stopped to offer a discount (sale) for their older modules. Sad. Very sad. I was going to introduce DCS to my il2 squadmates but with this policy its just waste of time.

Not a good times for DCS.

Edited September 10, 2024 by Tvrdi

[Schmidtfire]

3 hours ago, draconus said:

The module is not abandoned - it is supported in current condition and the updates are on hold until further notice.

 

That is also what I’ve heard.

But I have to ask. Are you official part of ED team? Reading your posts around the forums is a bit unclear if you are part of staff or not. Just so I know if you are answering in official capacity or not.

[MAXsenna]

 
That is also what I’ve heard.
But I have to ask. Are you official part of ED team? Reading your posts around the forums is a bit unclear if you are part of staff or not. Just so I know if you are answering in official capacity or not.

Everyone from the ED team has an ED tag on their forum profile. Draconus is just answering what he's learned from official ED statements. It's not hard if one pays attention.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Dallenbach]

vor einer Stunde schrieb TheFreshPrince:

5 months TM

Legal disputes can take time. Sometimes around 3 years or longer...
3 years of fun in this thread.

[BIGNEWY]

41 minutes ago, Schmidtfire said:

 

That is also what I’ve heard.

But I have to ask. Are you official part of ED team? Reading your posts around the forums is a bit unclear if you are part of staff or not. Just so I know if you are answering in official capacity or not.

The only people from ED who will reply here in any official capacity is myself or Nineline. We wont use, testers, SME's, or anyone else to comment for us.   

thank you 

[TKhaos]

7 hours ago, mikey69420 said:

Imagine if I paid a plane ticket to Paris and after some time the company tells me that the plane can't fly there so the only option they give me is to accept a plane ticket to London, how does that make any sense ?

My first thought would be that you booked your flight with Ryanair as they are well known for that

My second thought would be, London, Oh well I can just hop on the train down to Folkestone and get the Eurostar across via the Channel Tunnel

Bit like buying an F-15E, might have to take another direction but get there in the end.

5 hours ago, draconus said:

Oh, and no one paid 80 bucks.

Original price was $79.99 so imagine someone did

21 hours ago, Davee said:

Right, there was a love story underscoring the events.

Yeah I would rather not go there with this version

21 hours ago, NineLine said:

Wait, they remade Groundhog Day?

Only as far as this topic goes, it's like waking up every day and reading the same thing

Would be happy though if there was a remake with the original cast.

Edited September 10, 2024 by TKhaos

[mikey69420]

17 minutes ago, TKhaos said:

My first thought would be that you booked your flight with Ryanair as they are well known for that

My second thought would be, London, Oh well I can just hop on the train down to Folkestone and get the Eurostar across via the Channel Tunnel

Well, now that I think about it I kinda should've used my example the other way round, I know Paris and I'd actually pay to not go there if a flight to this city was forced upon me  would much rather visit London to which I've never been to.

17 minutes ago, TKhaos said:

Bit like buying an F-15E, might have to take another direction but get there in the end.

Mate, I fear we'll never arrive there in the end with the whole RAZBAM debacle  and for someone that bought the F15E and decides to refund it, just to be forced to get another DCS module, then there's definitely no arriving at what he wanted originally 

Edited September 10, 2024 by mikey69420

[TKhaos]

4 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

It is not something that will be discussed in public

You could write that in the biggest font you got and some people still won't accept it and bang on about it till the cows come home.

After a hard day dressed as a pilot they move away from the joystick, retire to the bedroom and dress up as a judge and eagerly await a full report on every text message, email, phone call and document that's passed between ED and Razbam so they can pass judgement on it

[Mizzy]

10 hours ago, NineLine said:

go enjoy some DCS, go enjoy another game, just go enjoy something. None of this bickering will do anything but leave ill will long after this is settled. 

Words of wisdom. Thanks