waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[spikef22]

14 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Once again, you are welcome to post here but if you feel you need to campaign to convert people to your opinion you can move on, nobody knows enough about the entire situation to make any sort of assumptions at this point, so there is no point in getting mad at each other or making sweeping claims either way. We all just need to let it play out and hope for the best. Thanks

You may be right, or a lawyers cosplay thread at least

 

As I said this situation has been on going for some time. It's deeper and more complex than anyone really knows. You can make assumptions based on the little that is out there or comments made by people who don't really know or understand what is happening, but that does no one any good and just further divides everyone here. 

Right, we as the public only know so much. But it's undisputed fact that razbam isn't being paid, and that's why development has seized. Why? Who knows. Just seeing the livelihoods and passion of these devs be stamped out by all of this is heartbreaking. I fly just about every airplane in this game including the ED ones. I'm not here to pick a side to be honest even though I like a good underdog. I just want what's best for this community, and for the lifeblood of DCS the content and product creators, functional unemployment is not it. Anyways I'm being pedantic. My apologies. 

[Firebird1955]

Pedantic...... I had to look that one up.  And you're right.  LOL

Edited June 18, 2024 by Firebird1955

[Beirut]

Just now, Firebird1955 said:

Pedantic...... I had to look that one up.  And your right.  LOL

 

"You're".

 

Pedantic indeed.  

[Oban]

1 hour ago, Sinclair said:

You are not scaring away noone and we will keep exposing publicly all the illegalities we find as long as we want until they are not adressed properly.

 

Oh the weekend corporate law degree is over?

[Firebird1955]

23 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

"You're".

 

Pedantic indeed.  

That was a test........and you passed!!!  LOL

[Mizzy]

2 hours ago, NEW is my Callsign. said:

Razbam is not selling the broken product. ED is

Really ! I thought Razbam developed the module and ED sells it on their behalf, just like all publishers do in business

1 hour ago, spikef22 said:

Aside from a small hush money payment they have received nothing since about September of last year this has been confirmed by both parties. 

Do you have inside information, where has this been confirmed?

[spikef22]

8 minutes ago, Mizzy said:

Really ! I thought Razbam developed the module and ED sells it on their behalf, just like all publishers do in business

Do you have inside information, where has this been confirmed?

Razbam developers, if you consult my other posts in this thread. Of course you can choose not to believe what they say but that's up to you. They want a resolution as well, we all do. 

[Mizzy]

1 hour ago, FailureToReport said:

 leaving the product bricked on purpose with the intent of using your customers as bargaining chips is pretty horrible. 

 

Indeed, making a public statement expressing the value of their customer base then saying they are not going to support their products sound a bit oxymoron. As far as it has been public, this is about IP theft and nothing to do with withholding payments. The theft may well be a consequence of withholding payments but Razbam have clearly not told the truth about the dispute. This is what is making me angry about this, also the SA map not being developed by Razbam but bringing that development team into their <profanity>show...and don't forget Heatblur being dragged in.

I don't bother with any Razbam products, I'm going to buy the SA map since I now know it's nothing to do with them but I can just imagine if the F4e and F14 was pulled compared to the F15e ! Unforgivable using their customer base as leverage in what should have remained a private business spat. The damage is beyond repair for Razbam products now and in the future, so that is why I cannot see Razbam remaining a developer for DCS and by contractual agreement, their products are brought in-house by ED to be repaired. 

I don't do any fighting in DCS so it's not really important all this radar thing, I just like the aircraft and the Professional Flight models which you can't get in any other sim right now. 

Mizzy

13 minutes ago, spikef22 said:

Razbam developers, if you consult my other posts in this thread. Of course you can choose not to believe what they say but that's up to you. They want a resolution as well, we all do. 

It's your comment about 'hush payments' that I am querying, do you have any official or unofficial evidence of this? 

[spikef22]

9 minutes ago, Mizzy said:

Indeed, making a public statement expressing the value of their customer base then saying they are not going to support their products sound a bit oxymoron. As far as it has been public, this is about IP theft and nothing to do with withholding payments. The theft may well be a consequence of withholding payments but Razbam have clearly not told the truth about the dispute. This is what is making me angry about this, also the SA map not being developed by Razbam but bringing that development team into their <profanity>show...and don't forget Heatblur being dragged in.

I don't bother with any Razbam products, I'm going to buy the SA map since I now know it's nothing to do with them but I can just imagine if the F4e and F14 was pulled compared to the F15e ! Unforgivable using their customer base as leverage in what should have remained a private business spat. The damage is beyond repair for Razbam products now and in the future, so that is why I cannot see Razbam remaining a developer for DCS and by contractual agreement, their products are brought in-house by ED to be repaired. 

I don't do any fighting in DCS so it's not really important all this radar thing, I just like the aircraft and the Professional Flight models which you can't get in any other sim right now. 

Mizzy

It's your comment about 'hush payments' that I am querying, do you have any official or unofficial evidence of this? 

It was brought up in conversation with M2M and Cpt. Smiley. But I'm going to see if I can get you something a bit more concrete :3

[Mizzy]

5 minutes ago, spikef22 said:

It was brought up in conversation with M2M and Cpt. Smiley. But I'm going to see if I can get you something a bit more concrete :3

Don't worry Spikey, it's not important because they don't represent ED or Razbam and I doubt they will get involved in speculation or giving out confidential information, it certainly doesn't change anything. The two you mentioned don't know what's going on either, I suspect they have been fed a shaggy dog story by the owners of Razbam. It's all speculation and no harm done.

Mizzy

[Guest]

I am in fact a lawyer, and have dealt with enough disputes like this to know that the situation is almost always complicated, messy, and with valid arguments on both sides.  

 

I don’t even have 1/100 of the info I would need to take sides, so I just hope that both sides come to some sort of an agreement they can each live with and that doesn’t leave loyal customers screwed. I own every Razbam module, and would be heartbroken if they die. I don’t _think_ they will — there’s too much to lose by not coming to a resolution.  In some sense I am actually a bit happy about the recent F-15e radar problem because I think it adds some urgency to solving the dispute. 

 

 

[spikef22]

8 minutes ago, Mizzy said:

Don't worry Spikey, it's not important because they don't represent ED or Razbam and I doubt they will get involved in speculation or giving out confidential information, it certainly doesn't change anything. The two you mentioned don't know what's going on either, I suspect they have been fed a shaggy dog story by the owners of Razbam. It's all speculation and no harm done.

Mizzy

So yes it appears there were conversations confirmed by an ED employee that a payment was indeed sent to try and keep this from going public. Do with that what you will. 

[Smashy]

2 minutes ago, wombat778 said:

I am in fact a lawyer

Ugh.  Can we get this guy banned?

But seriously, thanks for providing a small voice of reason in this thread.  I'm just waiting and hoping for the best for my Strike Eagle.

[Beirut]

26 minutes ago, wombat778 said:

I am in fact a lawyer, . . . 

 

And you've got the courage to just come right out and admit that?

 

Chuck Yeager's got nothing on you. 

[NineLine]

35 minutes ago, spikef22 said:

So yes it appears there were conversations confirmed by an ED employee that a payment was indeed sent to try and keep this from going public. Do with that what you will. 

Sorry this is not true, and this is the sort of thing I asked not to be done here. Unless it's an official announcement it doesn't belong here. Please stop propagating these stories.  

If this is the only reason you're posting, you will be moved to a moderated posting, I am trying to do my best to keep people as calm as can be expected, not play games. This is the last warning on this.

[Mainstay]

@NineLine lawl this is gonna be a hell of a forum signature after this one! “Zombie survivor of the ED/RAZBAM apocalypse”

[spikef22]

32 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Sorry this is not true, and this is the sort of thing I asked not to be done here. Unless it's an official announcement it doesn't belong here. Please stop propagating these stories.  

If this is the only reason you're posting, you will be moved to a moderated posting, I am trying to do my best to keep people as calm as can be expected, not play games. This is the last warning on this.

5x5

[USA_Recon]

20 hours ago, NineLine said:

“We very much regret that Ron Zambrano has decided, without even pre-advising us, to make these disparaging public statements and, more importantly, to take the customers of the Razbam developed aircraft as leverage in the discussions with us. 

Please rest assured, we are addressing the situation with the utmost attention and constructiveness.

Many thanks and kind regards,

Nick Grey“

I would like to comment on this.

Ive seen quite a few posts by RB employees stating they were not paid because ED didn’t pay RB.

That would match up with Ron using leverage, as want else does he have if not getting paid.

RB developers have stated quite a few times they were not paid, they were also saying that ED hasn’t responded to them.

That last part is my biggest concerned.  Nick saying they are addressing it, but it sounds like no one is addressing anything.

I hold ED responsible as it’s your DCS World.  It’s your job to manage your 3rd party devs.  As a customer it is dragging me through the mud.  Also, I’m a developer, and trusting the parent company to properly pay its sub contractors is critical.  I would also not work for free.  

I am a big fan of DCS World but I will say my loyalty has been significantly damaged after this.  I waited many years for this module and now I’m unsure if it will ever progress.  I have chosen not to purchase any more modules from ED until faith is restored.

I expect ED to take care of its customers by repairing the damage done quickly and resolutely .  

If Nicks post was serious I would expect this to be not lingering on as it has.

I appreciate the update, although I was hoping for better news, not stagnation 

[Baldrick33]

I have a slightly different perspective on this situation for two reasons:

1/ Having worked in the corporate world for many years, companies fall out regularly, at the opposite end of the scale business partners that start off as best friends can and do end up with acrimonious breakups. This stuff happens all the time. We are fortunate that in the world of hardcore simulations driven by enthusiasm for the end product these falling outs are few and far between, although there is some history of rifts between studios and publisher in the sim racing world at least. 

2/ IMHO the biggest threat to consumers of hardcore simulations is the very existence of the companies that create the product. There are very good reasons there are few companies with the desire to create simulations for what is a tiny niche market. There are many examples in the flight sim and sim racing genre of our favourite studios (or their parent companies) being taken over and the software assets being merged into more mainstream or the studios not wanted at all and the death of those hardcore sims.

Yes, we can take the moral high ground as paying customers. I appreciate that financially some will need to make hard decisions which modules to purchase and I respect those who wish to request a refund. However, for me the bigger picture is the future of development of hardcore, high fidelity combat sim aircraft and environments and perhaps selfishly I don’t care who is wrong or right in a business contract dispute as long as the development continues. For that reason I will continue to support ED and their partners that create the product and consider refunds or boycotting new purchases as high risk for the reasons stated above. .

[Hammer1-1]

1 minute ago, USA_Recon said:

I would like to comment on this.

Ive seen quite a few posts by RB employees stating they were not paid because ED didn’t pay RB.

That would match up with Ron using leverage, as want else does he have if not getting paid.

RB developers have stated quite a few times they were not paid, they were also saying that ED hasn’t responded to them.

That last part is my biggest concerned.  Nick saying they are addressing it, but it sounds like no one is addressing anything.

I hold ED responsible as it’s your DCS World.  It’s your job to manage your 3rd party devs.  As a customer it is dragging me through the mud.  Also, I’m a developer, and trusting the parent company to properly pay its sub contractors is critical.  I would also not work for free.  

I am a big fan of DCS World but I will say my loyalty has been significantly damaged after this.  I waited many years for this module and now I’m unsure if it will ever progress.  I have chosen not to purchase any more modules from ED until faith is restored.

I expect ED to take care of its customers by repairing the damage done quickly and resolutely .  

If Nicks post was serious I would expect this to be not lingering on as it has.

I appreciate the update, although I was hoping for better news, not stagnation 

How do you expect ED to control employees that manage their own shop? 3rd party developers are business partners, not employees. You dont go around telling entrepreneurs how to run their shop because thats a great way to get a door slammed into your face.

[USA_Recon]

Just now, Hammer1-1 said:

How do you expect ED to control employees that manage their own shop? 3rd party developers are business partners, not employees. You dont go around telling entrepreneurs how to run their shop because thats a great way to get a door slammed into your face.

I think this is rather simple :

ED receives money from their store.  They then send RB their agreed upon % of those earnings.  

RB then pays its employees.

ED isn’t paying RB, and therefore RB can’t pay their developers.

it would make no sense for RB to take these actions if this wasn’t true.  

ED is withholding paying RB.  So why did ED publish this product and take income from it and withhold what is rightfully theirs.

By ED taking this action they have caused considerable damage to their customer base 

[NineLine]

9 minutes ago, USA_Recon said:

I would like to comment on this.

Ive seen quite a few posts by RB employees stating they were not paid because ED didn’t pay RB.

That would match up with Ron using leverage, as want else does he have if not getting paid.

RB developers have stated quite a few times they were not paid, they were also saying that ED hasn’t responded to them.

That last part is my biggest concerned.  Nick saying they are addressing it, but it sounds like no one is addressing anything.

I hold ED responsible as it’s your DCS World.  It’s your job to manage your 3rd party devs.  As a customer it is dragging me through the mud.  Also, I’m a developer, and trusting the parent company to properly pay its sub contractors is critical.  I would also not work for free.  

I am a big fan of DCS World but I will say my loyalty has been significantly damaged after this.  I waited many years for this module and now I’m unsure if it will ever progress.  I have chosen not to purchase any more modules from ED until faith is restored.

I expect ED to take care of its customers by repairing the damage done quickly and resolutely .  

If Nicks post was serious I would expect this to be not lingering on as it has.

I appreciate the update, although I was hoping for better news, not stagnation 

As I tried to convey in my OP and many replies, you cannot go off anything but an official posting. There are a great number of things that only have a small shimmer of fact to them if at all that I have seen. I talk to Nick almost on a daily basis, I try to convey the very real concern I see here to him and my personal frustration with the issues. If anyone has had any dealings that involve lawyers you will understand why it's moving so slowly. Even simply communication has to be filtered through lawyers if they are involved. 

I only ask that everyone have some critical thinking when they see things plastered all over. Again, unless it's an official statement you need to consider that not everyone with a colorful name knows everything. 

As well, and I dread even bringing this up, but I am just tired. Stop all the hate breeding... maybe that's too harsh of a term but the anger and angst I have seen thrown around between customers, devs, SME's etc is just horrible to me, every day I see people attacked or bullied or whatever for an opinion it seems harder and harder to see a way back to normal. If you want me to be the villain in your story fine, call me names whatever but please dial it back some on the abuse and anger towards other customers no matter what side of the fence you are on (this plea goes to ex-devs, SME's whoever) consider what kind of future we want to see. 

[USA_Recon]

1 minute ago, NineLine said:

As I tried to convey in my OP and many replies, you cannot go off anything but an official posting. There are a great number of things that only have a small shimmer of fact to them if at all that I have seen. I talk to Nick almost on a daily basis, I try to convey the very real concern I see here to him and my personal frustration with the issues. If anyone has had any dealings that involve lawyers you will understand why it's moving so slowly. Even simply communication has to be filtered through lawyers if they are involved. 

I only ask that everyone have some critical thinking when they see things plastered all over. Again, unless it's an official statement you need to consider that not everyone with a colorful name knows everything. 

As well, and I dread even bringing this up, but I am just tired. Stop all the hate breeding... maybe that's too harsh of a term but the anger and angst I have seen thrown around between customers, devs, SME's etc is just horrible to me, every day I see people attacked or bullied or whatever for an opinion it seems harder and harder to see a way back to normal. If you want me to be the villain in your story fine, call me names whatever but please dial it back some on the abuse and anger towards other customers no matter what side of the fence you are on. 

I see multiple developers post the same story, as well as some leave .  Is it or is it not true that they were not paid ?  And then they have also said there hasn’t been any communication 

That isn’t just heresay, this is straight out of their mouths .  

My post wasn’t hateful.  What part of my post represented anything as such ? why would you quote my post and accuse me of such things ?

[Hammer1-1]

1 minute ago, USA_Recon said:

I see multiple developers post the same story, as well as some leave .  Is it or is it not true that they were not paid ?  And then they have also said there hasn’t been any communication 

That isn’t just heresay, this is straight out of their mouths .  

My post wasn’t hateful.  What part of my post represented anything as such ? why would you quote my post and accuse me of such things ?

hes stated several times that yes they havent been paid for reasons that involve Razbam using EDs IP against the contract agreement. Even I am getting tired of hearing NineLine repeat it.

[NineLine]

6 minutes ago, USA_Recon said:

I see multiple developers post the same story, as well as some leave .  Is it or is it not true that they were not paid ?  And then they have also said there hasn’t been any communication 

That isn’t just heresay, this is straight out of their mouths .  

My post wasn’t hateful.  What part of my post represented anything as such ? why would you quote my post and accuse me of such things ?

Sorry, the hater comment wasn't directed at you... just been on my mind.

The non-payments are true but it was not without reason, again I can only give you guys so much, it is a legal matter. I wish I could give more, but I just cannot right now, sorry.

Edit: Sorry, communication is on going, yes. But again it filters through lawyers and if it's going through lawyers I don't imagine many people are talking about any of it.