waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[TheFreshPrince]

vor 30 Minuten schrieb Oban:

This isn't a playground spat..

Certainly feels like one

[NineLine]

18 minutes ago, TheFreshPrince said:

Certainly feels like one

It really isn't. 

[Hammer1-1]

10 hours ago, stonewall197922 said:

Youre`re wrong. Why ed should tell to some unknown man on web page where their money is? If he is part of RB management and have authority, why he asked here? And not officially? I call that-manipulation by public opitnion.  Again that dispute is among RB and ED officials. And should not be revealed here. Every wrong word can make situation even harder to solve. You dont know actual situation, you dont know actual ED claims to RB. Why they holded payments? What terms were violated? All that scans of supposedly actual agreement on RB discord is useless and can be fake. You need to know all info about deals between parties. There can be dozens of agreements between them. Just calm down and wait resulution. All that speculation really don`t help. 

p.s. If i were ed ceo and at the moment when other side disclosured  agreement terms to public without asking me . I`d hold not only payments but asked through court to pay me penalties. Can you understand there`s possibilities, that by vilating agreement terms ed not owes funds to rb. But rb owes money to ed by violating terms.

 

Because asking whether or not a payment "he" may receive is in escrow or not is a valid point. While I agree its an inappropriate question to ask, the answer itself is not inappropriate at all. What information exactly is confidential that you are giving away? The fact that it is or is not in an escrow account? Certainly I wouldnt mind knowing that theres a payment waiting for Razbam once they are in compliance with their contract, and you arent giving any information away other than the simple fact that yes there is a payment waiting via a 3rd neutral party.  Hey, did you file your taxes this year? Did you send them a check? Inappropriate? Yes. Does it matter? Meh...not really.

 

But yes, I agree, its an inappropriate question to ask...unless you have a bone in the game.

Edited July 5, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[Smashy]

4 hours ago, Capn kamikaze said:

Well I can tell you with 100% certainty, that we, ED's and Razbam's PAYING CUSTOMERS, are getting pretty damned sick of this situation and the wall of silence that has been put up, we DEMAND some statement on exactly what is going on with the products we have PAID for, this is beyond a joke now.

LOL, who is this "we"?  Please don't include me in your temper tantrum.

[MAXsenna]

LOL, who is this "we"?  Please don't include me in your temper tantrum.

I guess he means "all of us", whoever that is.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[wadman]

5 hours ago, Oban said:

So you know the monthly sales revenue generated by the Razbam modules then?

Other than the F15E, what other modules are affected, because last time I looked, all the other Razbam products were allegedly OUT of early access, in other words complete.

Greed, for $80 a pop ? The monthly sales generated by ED to be classed as greedy, in my view, would have to surpass all their monthly overheads. And I highly doubt that's happening.

You're aware that all business plans work on ROI's right? ED's business plan doesn't have to be to your liking, you're a consumer of their FREE base product, nobody forced you to buy other addons, you buy those through clever marketing and promotions. ED hasn't put a gun to your head, and yet you seem to want to put a gun to theirs?

 

Based on what I read here, $80 is a lot for many people who buy DCS modules so why not ensure folks who are buying a module that has a serious support issue (may not ever be finished) are aware of that fact before they decide to purchase.  Rather than blindly defend ED/RB, please explain why you think the lack of transparency for new users is OK given THIS ISSUE HAS EXISTED AND IS UNRESOLVED FOR OVER 3 MONTHS now?  ED has not provided a response that justifies this situation in my opinion.  

Your comments on the free base product and not being forced to buy add-ons is silly at best.  While technically true, DCS would cease to exist if no one bought add-ons.  You must realize that the free base module can’t exist for very long without the revenue stream from paid modules - it’s the way to hook you into buying the other stuff!

I’m also not putting a gun to anybody’s head - just pointing out what I believe to be a somewhat unethical situation that is being allowed to continue.  Hopefully new users might see these threads and be able to better understand the situation before they potentially waste their money!

 

 

Edited July 5, 2024 by wadman

[Oban]

23 minutes ago, wadman said:

Based on what I read here, $80 is a lot for many people who buy DCS modules so why not ensure folks who are buying a module that has a serious support issue (may not ever be finished) are aware of that fact before they decide to purchase.  Rather than blindly defend ED/RB, please explain why you think the lack of transparency for new users is OK given THIS ISSUE HAS EXISTED AND IS UNRESOLVED FOR OVER 3 MONTHS now?  ED has not provided a response that justifies this situation in my opinion.  

Your comments on the free base product and not being forced to buy add-ons is silly at best.  While technically true, DCS would cease to exist if no one bought add-ons.  You must realize that the free base module can’t exist for very long without the revenue stream from paid modules - it’s the way to hook you into buying the other stuff!

I’m also not putting a gun to anybody’s head - just pointing out what I believe to be a somewhat unethical situation that is being allowed to continue.  Hopefully new users might see these threads and be able to better understand the situation before they potentially waste their money!

 

 

 

Why don't you explain why you feel an overwhelming sense of self entitlement ?

[rob10]

3 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Because asking whether or not a payment "he" may receive is in escrow or not is a valid point. While I agree its an inappropriate question to ask, the answer itself is not inappropriate at all. What information exactly is confidential that you are giving away? The fact that it is or is not in an escrow account? Certainly I wouldnt mind knowing that theres a payment waiting for Razbam once they are in compliance with their contract, and you arent giving any information away other than the simple fact that yes there is a payment waiting via a 3rd neutral party.  Hey, did you file your taxes this year? Did you send them a check? Inappropriate? Yes. Does it matter? Meh...not really.

But yes, I agree, its an inappropriate question to ask...unless you have a bone in the game.

Regardless of whether you have a bone in the game or not, it's inappropriate to expect an answer on this forum (which in this situation arguably makes it an inappropriate question to ask since it just stirs trouble).  If Nineline or BN actually answered any part of that question I would be surprised if they didn't (at a minimum) get a stern talking to by management or possibly disciplinary action against them.  It's obviously NOT public information or the question wouldn't have needed to be asked.  It's business information that a front line employee shouldn't be sharing (whether they even know it or not).  If a poster has a valid reason for getting that information, they should go through appropriate official channels to get it.

I don't know why the F-15 is still for sale (I have no reason to believe ED is lying to me that there are legal reasons for that) or that it doesn't have a disclaimer, but I agree that it would be better from a customer perspective that it wasn't.  But the law is an ass, so sometimes things don't work like we would want.  Also realize that currently the refunds (store credit) on the F-15 are a good will gesture by ED and it's possible that if things goes really bad and the F-15 gets totally trashed that the "new" buyers may well get an actual refund.  No way that ED can comment on that (or most other things related to this) without exposing themselves to more legal jeopardy from comments by people who likely don't know all the legal details (i.e. Nineline, BN).

I have no idea who's in the right or wrong in this overall situation, I but hope it gets solved fairly to both sides (and the customers). 

[NineLine]

4 minutes ago, rob10 said:

Regardless of whether you have a bone in the game or not, it's inappropriate to expect an answer on this forum (which in this situation arguably makes it an inappropriate question to ask since it just stirs trouble).  If Nineline or BN actually answered any part of that question I would be surprised if they didn't (at a minimum) get a stern talking to by management or possibly disciplinary action against them.  It's obviously NOT public information or the question wouldn't have needed to be asked.  It's business information that a front line employee shouldn't be sharing (whether they even know it or not).  If a poster has a valid reason for getting that information, they should go through appropriate official channels to get it.

I don't know why the F-15 is still for sale (I have no reason to believe ED is lying to me that there are legal reasons for that) or that it doesn't have a disclaimer, but I agree that it would be better from a customer perspective that it wasn't.  But the law is an ass, so sometimes things don't work like we would want.  Also realize that currently the refunds (store credit) on the F-15 are a good will gesture by ED and it's possible that if things goes really bad and the F-15 gets totally trashed that the "new" buyers may well get an actual refund.  No way that ED can comment on that (or most other things related to this) without exposing themselves to more legal jeopardy from comments by people who likely don't know all the legal details (i.e. Nineline, BN).

I have no idea who's in the right or wrong in this overall situation, I but hope it gets solved fairly to both sides (and the customers). 

I talk with Nick on a regular basis and he keeps me looped in pretty well and I am always asking for more info to share, but as you already indicated we are sharing all we can right now. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, wadman said:

Rather than blindly defend ED/RB, please explain why you think the lack of transparency for new users is OK given THIS ISSUE HAS EXISTED AND IS UNRESOLVED FOR OVER 3 MONTHS now?  

I keep seeing people saying there needs to be a disclaimer and that they are looking out for new users.  But I don’t believe I have actually seen any major outcry from new users saying they bought without being aware of the issues.  Does it really make sense to spend a lot of energy (and potentially inflame the legal situation ED/Razbam) solving a hypothetical problem — one which ED could also probably deal with on a case by basis if it ever arises?

[wadman]

1 hour ago, Oban said:

Why don't you explain why you feel an overwhelming sense of self entitlement ?

So, in your twisted world, it’s self-entitled to to post a point of view that it seems ethically wrong to continue to sell a module that has serious support issues and an unsure future without adding a disclaimer?  I have not demanded anything - just suggested what I think would be fair to consumers.

So… go ahead and keep giving poor customer service a pass as you appear to want to do.  I choose to point it out when I see it.

Oh… and I assumed that you would not answer my question and, as expected, you’ve lived up to my low expectations.

[Oban]

13 minutes ago, wadman said:

So, in your twisted world, it’s self-entitled to to post a point of view that it seems ethically wrong to continue to sell a module that has serious support issues and an unsure future without adding a disclaimer?  I have not demanded anything - just suggested what I think would be fair to consumers.

So… go ahead and keep giving poor customer service a pass as you appear to want to do.  I choose to point it out when I see it.

Oh… and I assumed that you would not answer my question and, as expected, you’ve lived up to my low expectations.

Nah, I just chose to read what's on page one, and accept that until there's a resolution, there's no point in flogging a dead horse.

You didn't ask a question, you gave an opinion

Edited July 6, 2024 by Oban

[wadman]

29 minutes ago, Oban said:

Nah, I just chose to read what's on page one, and accept that until there's a resolution, there's no point in flogging a dead horse.

You didn't ask a question, you gave an opinion

 

Oh, but I did ask a question - you just chose to ignore it in your responses.  No problem as I didn’t expect an answer from you anyhow.

 

I also didn’t resort to calling folks self-entitled just for voicing opinions that differ from mine. Have a nice life!

[Oban]

1 hour ago, wadman said:

Oh, but I did ask a question - you just chose to ignore it in your responses.  No problem as I didn’t expect an answer from you anyhow.

 

I also didn’t resort to calling folks self-entitled just for voicing opinions that differ from mine. Have a nice life!

You never read the first page... and I'm having a wonderful life, no stress, no worries, carefree, and definately not letting a computer game rile me up, and throw teddies and spit dummies out because things are not to my liking.

[RaisedByWolves]

This thread is like the energizer bunny. It keeps going, and going and going and…….

Edited July 6, 2024 by RaisedByWolves

[Hammer1-1]

5 hours ago, wadman said:

Based on what I read here, $80 is a lot for many people who buy DCS modules so why not ensure folks who are buying a module that has a serious support issue (may not ever be finished) are aware of that fact before they decide to purchase.  Rather than blindly defend ED/RB, please explain why you think the lack of transparency for new users is OK given THIS ISSUE HAS EXISTED AND IS UNRESOLVED FOR OVER 3 MONTHS now?  ED has not provided a response that justifies this situation in my opinion.  

Your comments on the free base product and not being forced to buy add-ons is silly at best.  While technically true, DCS would cease to exist if no one bought add-ons.  You must realize that the free base module can’t exist for very long without the revenue stream from paid modules - it’s the way to hook you into buying the other stuff!

I’m also not putting a gun to anybody’s head - just pointing out what I believe to be a somewhat unethical situation that is being allowed to continue.  Hopefully new users might see these threads and be able to better understand the situation before they potentially waste their money!

They're $80 dollars now because thats the going rate for software nowadays. 10 years ago they were $49.95. I bought LOMAC FC for $35 at launch IIRC. Also worth pointing out that you can buy a similar title on Steam for the same price. X Plane 12 is $79.99, so yeah. There are a bunch of aircraft in MSFS that are pretty bug free too that are cheaper if thats what you are hinting at, but they arent nearly as capable as any DCS module. Beauty is in the eyes of the beer holder, but its on the buyer who wants to buy whatever and research away.

Also would like to point out that ED absolutely did provide an acceptable reply as to why its not being fixed, you just dont like the answer. Also, again its not on ED's side nor Razbam's to cease sales of a module that is technically still in development regardless of whats going on at the moment. If and when it is abandoned, sales will cease. Until then, best thing you can do is just stop complaining about it. A warning on the module page about the current dispute would be nice, BUT it would have to be approved by both Razbam and ED's lawyers in their best interest as well. Nobody has said that even if Razbam drops the module it will NOT be completed AT ALL.

[wadman]

2 hours ago, Oban said:

You never read the first page... and I'm having a wonderful life, no stress, no worries, carefree, and definately not letting a computer game rile me up, and throw teddies and spit dummies out because things are not to my liking.

I did read the first page but that doesn’t mean I can’t voice an opinion that both parties are not doing right by consumers - which does not at mean I’m riled up at all: just voicing an opinion.

Just like you, I’m participating in a thread on a serious issue affecting a significant and much hyped module/studio in DCS - but, unlike you, I’m not trying to suppress others expressing their voice and opinion on the topic (respect to @NineLine for letting folks voice their opinions here). 

Edited July 6, 2024 by wadman

[wadman]

23 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Nobody has said that even if Razbam drops the module it will NOT be completed AT ALL. 

... and nobody has said it WILL be completed if Razbam drops the module and that is the reason why a disclaimer would be in good faith.

However, I get it: it’s with lawyers (who never really don’t care about end consumers - just $ in my experience), so enough said as a disclaimer is obviously not happening - but that fact has changed my view of both Razbam and ED for now.

[Hammer1-1]

14 minutes ago, wadman said:

... and nobody has said it WILL be completed if Razbam drops the module and that is the reason why a disclaimer would be in good faith.

However, I get it: it’s with lawyers (who never really don’t care about end consumers - just $ in my experience), so enough said as a disclaimer is obviously not happening - but that fact has changed my view of both Razbam and ED for now.

Nobody has said it will, yes...but it has been heavily implied in past actions from OTHER 3rd PARTY that will not be the case with anyone else after that incident. If Razbam walks away from ED and they want a paycheck, they will hand over the IP, and I dont see anyone wanting this resolved empty handed.

Edited July 6, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[NineLine]

6 hours ago, Oban said:

Why don't you explain why you feel an overwhelming sense of self entitlement ?

Let's go easy on each other, please. Both sides of this coin want the same thing and everyone has a certain level of feeling invested in what happens. Its ok if you don't feel as much as the next person, and it's ok if they feel a little more. Not picking on you Oban, goes for everyone. 

[MAXsenna]

Oh, but I did ask a question - you just chose to ignore it in your responses.  No problem as I didn’t expect an answer from you anyhow.

What question was that? 
This? 

THIS ISSUE HAS EXISTED AND IS UNRESOLVED FOR OVER 3 MONTHS now?

That's your only sentence with a question mark. 
Or did you actually mean this? 

Rather than blindly defend ED/RB, please explain why you think the lack of transparency for new users is OK given

You don't actually come off as in good faith when you call people blind. And if you had read the whole thread, then you'd see that this has been explained over and over, and not just in this thread. I personally admire @Oban's stamina and persistence for trying to explain this.
You have a nice life too!  

[boedha68]

Radar is fixed in next update. Announced on DCS discord.

[Slippa]

6 minutes ago, boedha68 said:

Radar is fixed in next update. Announced on DCS discord.

Cheers for letting us know here. Nothing officially and promises are subject to change so we’ll see I s’pose?

Mine’s fixed already. No hassle, sensibly released and fully working. Very decent. 

[MAXsenna]

Cheers for letting us know here. Nothing officially and promises are subject to change so we’ll see I s’pose?
Mine’s fixed already. No hassle, sensibly released and fully working. Very decent. 

To be fair. They did tell us in the Newsletter yesterday.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[falcon_120]

Nupe.  I have ZERO stake in RB financially.  If they fold up tomorrow, it would be no skin off my nose.  I do have an admittedly emotional stake because I feel like I wasted 4+ years of my life and countless countless hours on this passion project (F-15E) to see it all potentially go down the toilet.  

If its of any meaning whatsoever , i will just say i really appreciate the work you've put into this project, i love the videos and tutorials you've created e out of this bird and i admire the realism you've managed to inspire in this module and in particular in the radar implementation.

If the F15e just not receive any more work from now on but its kept alive in its current state it is already amazing and worth any penny.

Thank you sir. I owe you a beer or two if i ever meet you in person :).

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