autopilot setup in the OH-58D

[gdotts]

What type of autopilot will they have?

[Hulkbust44]

There isn't one, just a handoff to the other seat as an "AI" hover so you can work left seat.

[Guille H. Mono]

Will there be options to hand off controls to AI so it keeps speed/alt while en route, attitude and turn?

 

*Edit: CasmoTV explains everything in this video:

 

Edited May 31, 2024 by Guille H. Mono

[YoYo]

Biggest problem is the idea to map all functions, you need 11 buttons for this. Why they dont use a circle like Heatblur’s Jester of circle for orders like for George AI or Petrovich I dont know.

[petsild]

 

Hi,

how to reinvent the wheel, please DEV consider the control rose.
It works effectively on other modules.

[Fakum]

Voice attack will be very useful to take some of these needs off the button plate

[krazyj]

the OH58D utilize a high level proprietary autopilot system. its called STS interface. in more common tongue its referenced to as the Seat T Stick interface, 
its highly adaptable and yet incredibly stupid all at the same time. 

I am looking forward to the Kiowa and considering Casmo's comments I think it will be a close contender to the apache. 

[shagrat]

Am 31.5.2024 um 22:26 schrieb YoYo:

Biggest problem is the idea to map all functions, you need 11 buttons for this. Why they dont use a circle like Heatblur’s Jester of circle for orders like for George AI or Petrovich I dont know.

6 Buttons, 5 + 1 modifier.

Up/down, turn left/right and Hover. Modified: Accelerate/decelarate, drift left/right and anything else I'll put on the five top row of the MFD frame buttons.

...the benefit is: No need to constantly remember in which mode you are currently and clicking through 4(!) modes to get to the one you need, or more if you clicked too often.

[Sarge55]

I hate the “Wheel” version. Much prefer buttons. Like Shagrat I’ll also use a Cougar MFD and one hat on my HOTAS. 

[YoYo]

10 hours ago, shagrat said:

6 Buttons, 5 + 1 modifier.

Up/down, turn left/right and Hover. Modified: Accelerate/decelarate, drift left/right and anything else I'll put on the five top row of the MFD frame buttons.

...the benefit is: No need to constantly remember in which mode you are currently and clicking through 4(!) modes to get to the one you need, or more if you clicked too often.

No, in the total is even 22 buttons, totally crazy idea. As for the mode, you absolutely don't have to remember anything, if you use the wheel, you have it open for the time of the function release, apart from that there are only three main ones - navigation, weapons and defense, everyone will probably remember that. If you repeated your thoughts (following this idea why not give 5 modifiers at once, in this way I would assign only 4 buttons! ), I will repeat my own too:

„Personally, I have never had a problem using it (SP and MP) and I completely disagree with the accusation that the George or Petro AI options are worse than this idea, everything goes smoothly, without any hassle. This solution here could be a problem, it takes all the buttons on your joystick just to control only the basic A.I. functions. 11 buttons to map basic functions (22 in the total) instead of 4 plus on/off for all is the fundamental difference (generally you can have it under one HAT and you have everything). Of course, George and Petro need practice of user use, but everything is logically arranged, it has never been a problem for me in quick operation in online or in single player missions”.

If you have a F-14, F-4, Mi-24 or AH-64 you have all function in the one circle with very easy and quick access, so that AI can be managed appropriately and quickly with all orders, so lets focus here about all functions, not part only (22 buttons in Kiowa vs 4 in the rest copters modules). You definitely need to test how this solution works here yourself, but in the Casmo’s video it doesn't look like a good idea so far.

I wonder how it will be solved in CH-47, but I suspect it will be based on the same principle of only 4 buttons for all functions.

Edited June 4, 2024 by YoYo

[YoYo]

6 hours ago, Sarge55 said:

I hate the “Wheel” version. Much prefer buttons. Like Shagrat I’ll also use a Cougar MFD and one hat on my HOTAS. 

In this situation, according me, it's better to have assigned keys for the MFD in Kiowa (it has two clickable screens) than for the AI, but that's an individual decision. I also have TH MFD’s but Im using it for MFD’s from the cockpit mostly.

[Shadok]

On 5/31/2024 at 12:07 PM, Guille H. Mono said:

Will there be options to hand off controls to AI so it keeps speed/alt while en route, attitude and turn?

 

*Edit: CasmoTV explains everything in this video:

 

 

Hope this feature will be available for the Gazelle too !

And happy to see this is not like the George IA feature that I feel absolutely not intuitive.

The wheel like the Jester IA function could be interesting, but for the small Polychop team it may be too much work if we want them to progress on other aspects of their modules in the future.

[YoYo]

1 hour ago, Shadok said:

not intuitive.

The point is that it is very intuitive, if you have your weapon secured, you have flight and navigation modes, if you have your weapon unlocked, you can immediately issue attack orders. The other modes are then sub mods. You operate everything with one HAT, without looking for buttons, which you may not have time for, e.g. during a fight. This is a cool and logical solution and that's why I praise ED's solution. However, perhaps I will be convinced to use this solution here (when I get the KW one day, there is no discount, so I won't be in a hurry), for now Im only writing about my impressions based on videos. You can also imagine that over time new functions will be added (which is possible, because PC wrote that they intends to do something else with his A.I. as well in the future), so what? Will there be another, next 10 buttons? Unfortunately I have the impression that this path could be a wrong way for now.  

[shagrat]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb YoYo:

No, in the total is even 22 buttons, totally crazy idea. As for the mode, you absolutely don't have to remember anything, if you use the wheel, you have it open for the time of the function release, apart from that there are only three main ones - navigation, weapons and defense, everyone will probably remember that. If you repeated your thoughts (following this idea why not give 5 modifiers at once, in this way I would assign only 4 buttons! ), I will repeat my own too:

„Personally, I have never had a problem using it (SP and MP) and I completely disagree with the accusation that the George or Petro AI options are worse than this idea, everything goes smoothly, without any hassle. This solution here could be a problem, it takes all the buttons on your joystick just to control only the basic A.I. functions. 11 buttons to map basic functions (22 in the total) instead of 4 plus on/off for all is the fundamental difference (generally you can have it under one HAT and you have everything). Of course, George and Petro need practice of user use, but everything is logically arranged, it has never been a problem for me in quick operation in online or in single player missions”.

If you have a F-14, F-4, Mi-24 or AH-64 you have all function in the one circle with very easy and quick access, so that AI can be managed appropriately and quickly with all orders, so lets focus here about all functions, not part only (22 buttons in Kiowa vs 4 in the rest copters modules). You definitely need to test how this solution works here yourself, but in the Casmo’s video it doesn't look like a good idea so far.

I wonder how it will be solved in CH-47, but I suspect it will be based on the same principle of only 4 buttons for all functions.

 

Guess we have different opinions.

As for the wheel, ED did a deliberate decision to NOT use that approach with Petrovich and George.

Guess it didn't work out in a helicopter, flying 20-30ft off the ground.

Anyway, I am pretty sure the OH-58D AI pilot will not be redsigned from scratch, especially after the SME feedback seems pretty solid in favor of their approach.

[YoYo]

1 hour ago, shagrat said:

especially after the SME feedback seems pretty solid in favor of their approach.

I wouldn't rely 100% on the opinions that come from people, let's be honest, who received the model to advertise it online and test it (during beta period). The opinions of people, ordinary users, after the release will be much more important from dev perspective (it should be). I'm not going to tell  whether it's very good or very bad, I just have to check how it works and that's it. I have no problem with assigning buttons at my hardwares, panels, I have so many devices that my module can have 50 configurations just for AI only, but I'm just afraid that it won't be intuitive and user friendly (I fly in VR only, so I don't want to look for and touch all the buttons to find something, which I rarely use, it's a waste of time compared to the Jester wheel or ED rose), we will see for sure soon how it works.

[Hiob]

4 minutes ago, YoYo said:

I wouldn't rely 100% on the opinions that come from people, let's be honest, who received the model to advertise it online and test it (during beta period). 

Well, let’s instead listen to the relentless preemptively nagging of someone who hasn’t even tried it once yet and is condemning the work of people that probably spent month figuring out what they find the best solution and make it work…. just in case.

You like how Jester, George and co. work? Fine - I hate it. Especially in regards to flying and handover. I am happy that they try a different approach and I will judge it AFTER I tried it……

[Gladius]

I'm glad that we already have an AI. Because when it was announced that an AI would be coming later, I thought that it would be difficult for SP players to use the Kiowa. But thanks to the AI, I'm convinced that I'll have fun, even if the key assignments will be a challenge.

[monkie]

the question is how well can the Kiowa be controlled and at the same time the sensors be used, for the most part I can fly the other helicopters and use the sensors and weapons. It's more of a gamey situation but I find it challenging. That being said there is no way I'm going to deal with the pain of 22 key mappings for the AI autopilot. 

In reality I don't see that I'd do much with this helicopter as it is, everything it does can be done with the Apache but with a lot more firepower. Having the AI hovering while I observe units with the mast is not going to be something I'd be booting up DCS for.  It really tears at me that it's not a day one purchase since I love helicopters in general, it's just holds no insterest for me it's a Bell Jet Ranger for the most part and DCS doesn't have the ground units that makes playing low intensity conflicts engaging enough. 

The youtube videos of guys playing air to air with each other in it kinda sums it up for me, warthunder.

That being said I hope it's a great success and poly makes more helicopters in the future.

Edited June 4, 2024 by monkie

[shagrat]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Hiob:

You like how Jester, George and co. work? Fine - I hate it. Especially in regards to flying and handover. I am happy that they try a different approach and I will judge it AFTER I tried it……

Pretty much the same here. I have massive problems with muscle memory, if the same long/short button press does totally different things, depending on the mode you are currently in...

Also, I can put my personal preferences on buttons I can easily reach, without being forced into the layout (e.g. I would prefer, if I could use a 5-way hat switch for Petrovich/George and use the center button press to switch modes, have an option to exclude modes from the cycle, tell my copilot to hover here and not slowly drift into the tree on the left rear...

vor 3 Stunden schrieb monkie:

In reality I don't see that I'd do much with this helicopter as it is, everything it does can be done with the Apache but with a lot more firepower. (...)

Just try hovering behind a building 8 km in front of an SA-8 and lase a GBU dropped from an aircraft, with the Apache, faster than the SA-8's missile touches you...

[monkie]

3 hours ago, shagrat said:

 

Just try hovering behind a building 8 km in front of an SA-8 and lase a GBU dropped from an aircraft, with the Apache, faster than the SA-8's missile touches you...

Now that does sound fun but not sure I can pull that off in Single Player without some fancy scripting in the mission editor. If there was some way in calling in artillery strikes or air strikes that would open up a lot of possiblities. 

That is where I see the limitations with the DCS engine, if it were dedicated to helicopter operations especially cold war era the scenarios would be fantastic. Trying to stop armored attacks with coordinated helicopter operations would make for some fantastic scenarios. 

[YoYo]

So what do you think about current implementation after the release?

[Hiob]

15 hours ago, YoYo said:

So what do you think about current implementation after the release?

I love it. It is the most useful and most intuitive implemented AI-Pilot so far! And your concern of too many buttons - doesn’t bother me at all. I have all the most important flight commands on two 4-hats on my stick. Didn’t even need to use modifiers.

Two things I liked to be changed for the future are purely cosmetic:

- the co-pilot model should at least put his hands on the controls when „flying“

- „some“ kind of instability - even if artificial - would go a long way for immersion. Perhaps a little delayed reaction or random micro (over-) adjustments like a human would do.

 

Edited June 8, 2024 by Hiob

[monkie]

One of the biggest issues so far is the AI Autopilot "HUD" it's a huge display which for some reason needs to show the outline of the helicopter itself. It's quite intrusive and needs to be modded a bit, no reason it can't show the info in a more compact and less distracting form. At night it's too bright and during the day it's sometimes unreadable depending on the background.

[todd022]

On 5/31/2024 at 4:26 PM, YoYo said:

Biggest problem is the idea to map all functions, you need 11 buttons for this. Why they dont use a circle like Heatblur’s Jester of circle for orders like for George AI or Petrovich I dont know.

I also think the community is looking for some uniformity in AI crew member control...it'd be nice to just let the command rose be the standard. 

[YoYo]

8 hours ago, Hiob said:

- the co-pilot model should at least put his hands on the controls when „flying“

Are you asking about animation? If yes - its a very good idea!