waiting for resolution ED/RAZBAM Situation Info & Discussion

[draconus]

Till this time every DCS module was supposed to be working in next versions without any end of support date. That was how they did their business - one-off sales. No matter how old the module. If it got too old (over 10 years, like Ka-50, A-10C or F-5E) they made some paid refresh of the model, textures and maybe added some new stuff - and it's OK. But this time they expect users to accept the end of life of 4 popular aircraft! Because Razbam... I don't wanna know. I bought from ED, on their E-shop, sending money to ED account. I'm only interested in a solution.

[alejandr0]

1 hour ago, PhantomHans said:

Edit To Add: If ED had made it clear at the time of purchase that they considered the AV-8B module "Old, unsupported, and we can kill it any time we want" I probably wouldn't have purchased it.  Sadly, they didn't bother to make that clear.

Honestly, I doubt we'll get any meaningful response. It feels like they’re just waiting for the discussion to die down on its own.

[ChuckJäger]

1 hour ago, PhantomHans said:

If ED had made it clear at the time of purchase that they considered the AV-8B module "Old, unsupported, and we can kill it any time we want" I probably wouldn't have purchased it.  Sadly, they didn't bother to make that clear.

precisely.  I get that all software has a shelf life, to an extent.  But ED seems to be somehow directly involved in either not ensuring there is some security of these modules in perpetuity and/or directly involved in RB ceasing support altogether due some sort of contractual dispute.  

EITHER WAY - ED should have done more to keep the integrity of these modules in tact.  

I'm sure RB isn't without fault here.. but again, ED is the one that benefits most from the sale of any of these items - they own the core sandbox and the enjoy the benefit of outside developers making it better.  There is no doubt that HB moved the needle greatly with the F-14 and now the F-4 and that RB did the same with the F-15E and AV-8.  And with the proverbial swipe of a pen (or key mash) the hundreds of dollars spent on their modules will likely wither away.  

This is a poor business model.  For me, it will be very, very difficult to spend any more money here.  I can only hope that something can change that for me personally.

[plott1964]

37 minutes ago, alejandr0 said:

Honestly, I doubt we'll get any meaningful response. It feels like they’re just waiting for the discussion to die down on its own.

Dear Eagle Dynamics, The DCS community demands that you provide some kind of legitimate, clear and easily understandable response to what the future looks like for Razbam mods that were purchased well before all this drama started and what the current state of that relationship is. The community also requires an explanation of the future plans for all Early Access mods and when they are to be deemed complete. ...I really don't know why we have to ask.

Also, Is it wrong to expect that all official DCS mods be working and functional at least 99% post every update?

Edited Wednesday at 06:02 PM by plott1964

[NineLine]

54 minutes ago, plott1964 said:

Dear Eagle Dynamics, The DCS community demands that you provide some kind of legitimate, clear and easily understandable response to what the future looks like for Razbam mods that were purchased well before all this drama started and what the current state of that relationship is. The community also requires an explanation of the future plans for all Early Access mods and when they are to be deemed complete. ...I really don't know why we have to ask.

Also, Is it wrong to expect that all official DCS mods be working and functional at least 99% post every update?

I'm sorry, but everything we can share right now is in the first post. Thanks

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, plott1964 said:

Dear Eagle Dynamics, The DCS community demands that you . . . 

 

We can demand things? 

 

Cool! I'm making a list.

[bfr]

3 hours ago, draconus said:

There probably are some but they are stuck with 2.5.6.

Did it actually genuinely stop working beyond that point or is that just the release when ED said they'd no longer support any issues that might arise if people were on that OS?

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

35 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

We can demand things? 

 

Cool! I'm making a list.

Oh, wear a ski mask, too!

[NineLine]

58 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

We can demand things? 

 

Cool! I'm making a list.

I will put it with all the other lists of demands, the team loves when I bring them up

[Schmidtfire]

[draconus]

1 hour ago, bfr said:

Did it actually genuinely stop working beyond that point

Yes, it did.

[Dondy]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

I will put it with all the other lists of demands, the team loves when I bring them up

I don't want to demand anything but I don't like it on bit when ED (or someone speaking for ED) is making fun of potentially putting roughly 300 USD (4 modules) into the trash can.

Guys I know sometimes someone has to crack a joke but it does not put on a good light if this comes from an ED official IMO. 

[Oban]

2 hours ago, Dondy said:

I don't want to demand anything but I don't like it on bit when ED (or someone speaking for ED) is making fun of potentially putting roughly 300 USD (4 modules) into the trash can.

Guys I know sometimes someone has to crack a joke but it does not put on a good light if this comes from an ED official IMO. 

Wow .... you completely misinterpreted what Nineline said, he wasn't making fun of loosing modules at all, he was making fun of Beirut and his comments with regards to demands, because to be blunt, making any sort of demand when you can't comprehend what's said on the first page, deserves to have the piss taken out of it.. it's self entitlement on a grand scale. 

[NineLine]

3 hours ago, Oban said:

Wow .... you completely misinterpreted what Nineline said, he wasn't making fun of loosing modules at all, he was making fun of Beirut and his comments with regards to demands, because to be blunt, making any sort of demand when you can't comprehend what's said on the first page, deserves to have the piss taken out of it.. it's self entitlement on a grand scale. 

It's my bad, I forget sometimes my humor doesn't translate well, I was only trying to lighten the mood a little, I apologize. 

[OmasRachE]

I share the frustration and I am still wondering how 2 companies can smash their heads and burn money like this. But I think we have to leave the church in the town, as we say in germany. A legal dispute has rules and ED is sticking to this. I'd rather hear nothing than those insufferable, meaningless pseudo-emotional statements that RAZBAM regularly puts out. And going after NineLine over a sarcastic remark is seriously over the top. At the moment, the Strike Eagle is no different from many other unfinished modules, and it works at the moment. If that stops being the case and there's no solution, then we'll see how ED deals with us — or whether they want to face a series of further legal actions.
Until then, I’ll just keep hoping for a solution and focus on the other construction sites DCS still has.

[Esac_mirmidon]

So as customers we cant demand?

A little list. I hope no jokes.

Developers part of ED miles program. Check

Developers part of the new ED files sharing policy since 2018. Unknown

Plans to have DCS 2.5.3-2.9.x active and working on DCS servers in the future when modules like VEAO Hawk or Razbam are or will be deprecated. Unknown

I think those demands are fair and logic, and important enough to be answered to us, customers, demanding info.

Thanks

 

 

[ssn]

Yeah, it's weird that "demands" trigger such a pushback here.  One would think that an enterprise should be interested in "customer demands" as this is invaluable feedback on what customer needs to feel comfortable to continue spending their money.

Edited 13 hours ago by ssn

[draconus]

1 hour ago, ssn said:

Yeah, it's weird that "demands" trigger such a pushback here.  One would think that an enterprise should be interested in "customer demands" as this is invaluable feedback on what customer needs to feel comfortable to continue spending their money.

Yeah, except:

[Kang]

This is just a joke

I would like to make it perfectly clear that this was a joke.

[AndyJWest]

There seem to be very different understandings here as to what the word 'demand' means.

[Dragon1-1]

2 hours ago, ssn said:

One would think that an enterprise should be interested in "customer demands" as this is invaluable feedback on what customer needs to feel comfortable to continue spending their money.

This is invaluable feedback of what the customer wants. Not necessarily what he actually needs. Those things don't always overlap. Customers want a lot of things, but that doesn't mean these things are good uses of dev time, or even particularly useful. This is especially acute when we're talking business apps and the request is about buzzword compatibility with something an exec read in a pamphlet at a conference (implement blockchain in the CRM system? We'll get right on that...).

Take Vulkan, for instance. Compared to things like the F-35, it's not particularly shiny unless you already know a thing or two about rendering. It's only even being asked for because DCS is a notorious performance hog and people hope it'll help with that. However, it is necessary for both improved visuals and ongoing performance improvements, so we need this change more than most people think.

Edited 11 hours ago by Dragon1-1

[Horns]

Demands and requests are very different things. A demand is accompanied by a threat, implicit or explicit. No such thing as a friendly or polite demand.

[plott1964]

19 hours ago, NineLine said:

I will put it with all the other lists of demands, the team loves when I bring them up

I'll take that as a bit snarky and humorous. But, it must be said that this community has invested quite a bit (of time and a great amount of money) to keep ED going and at times a fair demand is actually justified. Don't you think? 

8 hours ago, OmasRachE said:

I share the frustration and I am still wondering how 2 companies can smash their heads and burn money like this. But I think we have to leave the church in the town, as we say in germany. A legal dispute has rules and ED is sticking to this. I'd rather hear nothing than those insufferable, meaningless pseudo-emotional statements that RAZBAM regularly puts out. And going after NineLine over a sarcastic remark is seriously over the top. At the moment, the Strike Eagle is no different from many other unfinished modules, and it works at the moment. If that stops being the case and there's no solution, then we'll see how ED deals with us — or whether they want to face a series of further legal actions.
Until then, I’ll just keep hoping for a solution and focus on the other construction sites DCS still has.

I'll bet the lawyers on both sides are loving this drama!

[plott1964]

43 minutes ago, Horns said:

Demands and requests are very different things. A demand is accompanied by a threat, implicit or explicit. No such thing as a friendly or polite demand.

Demand is assertive and often implies a necessity, while request is more polite and suggests a desire without obligation.
In business, demand relates to consumer behavior, whereas request is more about interpersonal communication. No threats, just realistic outcomes.

Yes, I am implying that this community's behavior will most likely change based on ED's responsiveness and that will impact the bottom line - dollars in their pockets! 

[Horns]

49 minutes ago, plott1964 said:

Demand is assertive and often implies a necessity, while request is more polite and suggests a desire without obligation.
In business, demand relates to consumer behavior, whereas request is more about interpersonal communication. No threats, just realistic outcomes.

Yes, I am implying that this community's behavior will most likely change based on ED's responsiveness and that will impact the bottom line - dollars in their pockets! 

A demand comes from entitlement. Try using the word ‘demand’ with many businesses I know and they’ll inform you they will respond only when and if you establish your basis of entitlement. ‘You’ll lose my custom’ doesn’t cut it.

 I won’t be engaging further with you.

Edited 9 hours ago by Horns
Changed “any business” to “many businesses” and corrected grammar