waiting for resolution ED/RAZBAM Situation Info & Discussion

[deadghostjt]

2 minutes ago, draconus said:

But there will be more opponents for F6F and F4U:

To be fair this AI opponents is already a good thing. Most people fly solo. That said there's only couple of cockpits to be made for FC low fidelity models to hit the jackpot in multiplayer. Correct me if I missed the low fidelity models being made already on this one.

[draconus]

28 minutes ago, deadghostjt said:

That said there's only couple of cockpits to be made for FC low fidelity models to hit the jackpot in multiplayer. Correct me if I missed the low fidelity models being made already on this one.

ED shared no plans for any more FC aircraft. Make a wish here:

https://forum.dcs.world/forum/1027-dcs-wish-list/

[cfrag]

13 minutes ago, deadghostjt said:

"theres no money in making more AI assets so let's only use current two sam systems and couple of generic tanks..., theres no money in making clouds look better...".

You do realize that you are quoting one of the most common lament of long-time DCS fans, right? That, because of DCS' one-off business model, there is too little incentive to invest into DCS core, that there are people who would welcome a subscription model just to head off the exact line of thought you just wrote. Yes. There is very little business incentive in updating DCS core. If there was, it would not take a decade to upgrade ATC, bring a 'dynamic campaign' or a working save & continue system to DCS. If there was money in it, we'd have it today.

No, you can't "always charge 10$ more for current FC+++ update." - it seems obvious to me that you haven't run the numbers, and like so many people in this thread, you simply assert something without bothering to check the facts. Run an edge-of-envelope calculation: how many of these FC+++ updates will you sell? Let's say 20'000. After tax and cuts from Steam etc that leaves you with, say 140'000 EUR (i.e. you make a phenomenal 70% on the dollar). That kind of money won't get you anywhere, it's barely enough to hire one decidedly average talent for a year in Switzerland, maybe 2 in some less expensive regions of the world. That is nothing, and the proceeds didn't even cover marketing - do you have any indication how much a simple, no frills global ad campaign for FC+++ would cost? 

Do you really think that the ED/RZ dustup is over some small change like that? Try and find out how much effort it is to create a module for DCS, multiply by 2 to include testing and marketing, then see how many units you need to sell before you turn a profit (hint: if you sell for 60 USD to a customer, you do not receive 60 USD). This is business.

Now look at the RZ dispute and realize that there are serious funds involved, otherwise neither side would bother. This is business.

And yes, if you do not maximize profits, you are doing it wrong. DCS is business, not a charity.

 

[Tank50us]

14 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It is not an option because a certain Ron Zambrano had declared that he'll never hand over the RAZBAM stuff to ED. For ED to buy out the modules, RAZBAM would have to be willing to sell them. We saw no indication of that. No amount of money will buy you something that's not on sale.

That's why I said technically. They could sell the licenses to ED and walk away.... they've just chosen not to.

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, Aapje said:

I never said that militaries wouldn't use consumer games, but that they wouldn't use them without an organized training structure,

What I'm saying is that it'd be damn hard to prove if it was a low level initiative, during the pilots' downtime (not necessarily off duty), and funded from entertainment budget. Hardly impossible for them to claim that it wasn't an official thing, as opposed to entertainment. In fact, in DCS, serious multiplayer will have a level of organization and planning not too far removed from reality, simply because that's how things are done in a flight sim.

And yes, any good officer arranging that sort of thing will tell his people "if anyone asks you, it's just a computer game" if he senses that someone could possibly be gathering evidence to try and screw him and/or his people over.

[Horns]

On 5/4/2025 at 8:42 AM, Mike Force Team said:

Can ED just offer to buy out Razbam's full-fidelty modules? I am saying ED pays an agreed upon price to Razbam, receives the licenses, coding, and everything else related to the transaction. 

ED have been clear they won't talk about their conduct of this dispute. It's also pretty evident that they aren't going to change their business, legal or communication strategy just because you repeat yourself.

You've said the same thing over and over, any positive effect this might have had has already happened. If you have something new to say go ahead, but at this point all that repeating yourself does is annoy other users. Enough.

[cfrag]

5 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

That's why I said technically.

Agreed. And it's not completely off the table, this is what is commonly referred to as 'posturing'. If the conditions are right, and all egos and other factors are satisfied, there may be a path to a resolution. The hope is that this happens somewhat amicably (perhaps via a third party to mollify bruised personas), with us customers receiving what we want most dearly: continued access to cool planes and no drama (my Mudhen is a fantastic module, and I would love to keep using it a loooooong time, can do without the theatrics).

Nobody knows if it is likely nor feasible. 

So, hopefully there will be some form of agreement that preserves all the fantastic work that has gone into the mudhen, mirage, harrier, mig and Falklands. Let's take a step back and see if and when cooler heads can prevail.

[Dragon1-1]

It's Ron Zambrano we're talking about. I'm afraid "completely off the table" is what we're looking at here, unless you can find a way to cut him out (which would probably make this whole thing a lot simpler in first place...).

The only way for cooler heads to prevail is for someone to stick his into a bucket of water, so to speak.  

[cfrag]

9 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I'm afraid "completely off the table" is what we're looking at here

Let's give it  rest. Even my hot-headed younger brother relented after ten years and agreed that he may not always have been right. Let's be optimistic. 

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

3 hours ago, cfrag said:

Let's give it  rest. Even my hot-headed younger brother relented after ten years and agreed that he may not always have been right. Let's be optimistic. 

See you in 10 years, Mudhen fans!

[Tank50us]

4 hours ago, MiG21bisFishbedL said:

See you in 10 years, Mudhen fans!

Unless Ron has that much in his bank account, I don't think we'll have to wait that long XD

People with that kind of ego tend to have spending habits to match it.... I remember some that I went to school with that were like that....

[Pillowcat]

Even Doom1 was used for mil trainings, and 'legendary komdiv' Chapaev used potatoes, you as dev business just do special versions more lucrative and better in use than ordinary one to be used instead (like easy to scale in multi-computer grid which works like one thing for distributed extensive calculations without simplifications and/or extended input-output for hardware mocups ), not by putting restrictive measures only.

(In context of training aids development) For outsiders systematized military contracts mostly began like as some sneaky major+ dreams to get access to big budgets, seeing software devs as opportunity to get there, thus it starts as: "you guys do these and that and probably something shall we get, as I show yours things of our initiative to the gens", but mostly you must  already be a firm controlled by some relatives of high ranks lul. So with high chances ED wished from RB the slice of unkilled bear skin.

Edited May 6 by Pillowcat
more clearification words added

[erniedaoage]

1 hour ago, Pillowcat said:

For outsiders systematized contracts mostly began like as some sneaky major+ dreams to get access to big budgets and saw software devs as opportunity to get there, so it starts as: "you guys do these and that and probably something shall we get, as I show yours things of our initiative to the gens", but mostly you must  already be a firm controlled by some relatives of high ranks lul. So with high chances ED wished from RB the slice of unkilled bear skin.

So you really think ED would be that greedy, a company with subdivisions around the globe, with it's own employees and a monopoly in the modern era combat flight simulations market?(Some people will say they own the whole market because there is no competition) With their own military software which they already distributed for years? Sorry but that doesn't fit into my frame of the picture.

Even everybody has to remember that ED stepped in, after the last <profanity>storm they faced(couple years ago in the old forum), to assure us as customers and community that RB is still passionate about developing modules for DCS.

Everything i experienced with RB is from DCS alone, i don't know their past with other simulators, but for me it seems that RB is a one-man show with a lot of sub contractors. Shifting the blame like it's being done right now, is a common practice in modern corporations and i bet a lot of you guys experienced that in your daily life. My whole guestimation why RB is pulling the plug is the simple fact, that RB can't guarantee updates to all modules because a lot of past sub contractors are gone already and it's quite a lot of work to go through code from other people, understand it and build upon it, or rewrite it. But that's just my speculation with everything that happend so far and it would fit into my picture. We will never get the truth we can only watch and observe what's gonna happen. But honestly for me it doesn't look like, that the guy, who implemented the breaking point for the radar in the mudhen, will come back and pick up his work again, if he wasn't paid in the first place. But we will see what's gonna happen. My solution would be that ED gets the rights to all the 3D work, so the modules stay in the sim as AI and some other 3rd party could pick up the project and start coding right away. This will delay everything, but as we all know in DCS it's often better to start all over again instead of trying to fix the spaghetti legacy code.

 

 

Edited May 6 by erniedaoage

[Darth Holliday]

Its a game.....Get over it.

[Czar66]

5 minutes ago, Darth Holliday said:

Its a game.....Get over it.

A pretty cool game that, after you get going in a nice groove in one aircraft, renders a bunch of other games stale in comparison...

[Darth Holliday]

1 hour ago, Czar66 said:

A pretty cool game that, after you get going in a nice groove in one aircraft, renders a bunch of other games stale in comparison...

    You are absolutely right about that...But after 13 pages of Raz should do this and ED should do that...Does seem to be a bit ridicules..I too have spent more than I should have on hardware and modules...But, my hardware works on any platform...and F15's are elsewhere...

[freehand]

2 hours ago, Darth Holliday said:

Its a game.....Get over it.

Your not allowed to say the G word the world will end on the forum..  

Edited May 6 by freehand

[NineLine]

23 minutes ago, Darth Holliday said:

    You are absolutely right about that...But after 13 pages of Raz should do this and ED should do that...Does seem to be a bit ridicules..I too have spent more than I should have on hardware and modules...But, my hardware works on any platform...and F15's are elsewhere...

If only it were just 13 pages....

[Slippa]

5 minutes ago, freehand said:

Your not allowed to say the G word the world will end on the forum..  

Tantamount to blasphemy 

[Harlikwin]

14 hours ago, erniedaoage said:

So you really think ED would be that greedy, a company with subdivisions around the globe, with it's own employees and a monopoly in the modern era combat flight simulations market?(Some people will say they own the whole market because there is no competition) With their own military software which they already distributed for years? Sorry but that doesn't fit into my frame of the picture.

Even everybody has to remember that ED stepped in, after the last <profanity>storm they faced(couple years ago in the old forum), to assure us as customers and community that RB is still passionate about developing modules for DCS.

Everything i experienced with RB is from DCS alone, i don't know their past with other simulators, but for me it seems that RB is a one-man show with a lot of sub contractors. Shifting the blame like it's being done right now, is a common practice in modern corporations and i bet a lot of you guys experienced that in your daily life. My whole guestimation why RB is pulling the plug is the simple fact, that RB can't guarantee updates to all modules because a lot of past sub contractors are gone already and it's quite a lot of work to go through code from other people, understand it and build upon it, or rewrite it. But that's just my speculation with everything that happend so far and it would fit into my picture. We will never get the truth we can only watch and observe what's gonna happen. But honestly for me it doesn't look like, that the guy, who implemented the breaking point for the radar in the mudhen, will come back and pick up his work again, if he wasn't paid in the first place. But we will see what's gonna happen. My solution would be that ED gets the rights to all the 3D work, so the modules stay in the sim as AI and some other 3rd party could pick up the project and start coding right away. This will delay everything, but as we all know in DCS it's often better to start all over again instead of trying to fix the spaghetti legacy code.

 

 

Let me correct your "impression" of razbam and "contractors". The principals are Roz and his brother Larry (Artist/Coder). They have a strong "family" relationship with additional artists and coders, they have an FM guy that recently had a kid that wasn't paid for like 2 years of work. Their radar guy that made the F15 radar basically has bailed to a professional competitor company that was very happy to hire him after not being paid for his work. Their 3D guy(s) may or may not be gone. 

Meanwhile there is considerable variation in other 3rd parties, do more or less what you say hire a guy for a project, and let him go after. Razbam more or less doesn't do that. 

You can even find them and talk to them on their discord if you really want to.

 

 

Edited May 6 by Harlikwin

[Tank50us]

19 minutes ago, NineLine said:

If only it were just 13 pages....

I'll be honest... if you weren't already bald, I can imagine you probably are now or close to it after having to deal with this mess....

[NineLine]

6 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

I'll be honest... if you weren't already bald, I can imagine you probably are now or close to it after having to deal with this mess....

Nope not bald, but I have a lot of headaches

[Tank50us]

18 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Nope not bald, but I have a lot of headaches

should I buy stock in IBuprofen? XD

[Darth Holliday]

2 hours ago, freehand said:

Your not allowed to say the G word the world will end on the forum..  

 

2 hours ago, Slippa said:

Tantamount to blasphemy 

 

  ooopsy....!!   

[Slippa]

5 minutes ago, Darth Holliday said:

 

 

  ooopsy....!!   

Pardoned. Amen