Oculus Rift and DCS World Discussion

[Kuky]

I still wonder why man doesn't have a manned moon base.

 

that one is easy to answer... because there is no profit in that for anyone ;)

[159th_Viper]

What are you missing? just the simple fact that until DK2's arrive and developers start implementing the positional tracking into existing or new titles then there is little point in mentioning much about the CV1.

 

I don't give a hoot about positional tracking and his evil, redheaded stepchild. What is vitally important is what I see and perceive. As my original query states, why can they not get that right, right at the outset. Financial inability is no excuse. The tech is there. Where's the holdup? Surely screen fidelity is not reliant on positional tracking/game Dev input?

[Maximus_G]

Yeah, that's my question: Now with the sudden influx of all the capital they can ever wish for, why are they not pulling their finger out of their backsides and vamping up development, specifically as it relates to the screens and resolutions?

 

How difficult can it be to get some of the latest Samsung tech in there? They are partnered with Samsung now aren't they?

 

Rather than do so, they keep plodding along at a pace prior to Zucky taking over. I would have thought that cash would speed up proceedings. Start with the absolute best equipment available I would have thought, but here they're still buggering about with ultra-low res screens.

 

What am I missing?

No one breathes down their neck probably...

[Abburo]

There are a lot of potentially drawbacks of OR:

- resolution

- claustrophobic sensastion for some people

- eyes affecting

- external world isolation - not possible to use your physical cockpit

 

There are some advantages too:

- affordable

- no extra room needed

- nice immersion - for some titles

 

Now, each of us should put these on balance. I did, and OR cause have lost. If they will not use latest or even better future technical devices/screens etc... they are just a marketing without any strong ground foundation. I won't play Tetris on OR, neither Minecraft...

[cichlidfan]

I won't play Tetris on OR, neither Minecraft...

 

Minecraft would actually be fairly cool in the OR. ;)

[Chivas]

What makes people think they haven't tried, or aren't eventually going to use curved displays? This is a long process that doesn't end with the first consumer version. This isn't a matter of just plugging in new displays and already developed smartphone parts. They wouldn't be hiring the best minds in the fledgling industry if it was that easy. Samsungs partnership will give the Oculus access to some of the best displays possible, initially limited by peoples computer systems that will drive these parts. Low persistence has been a huge breakthrough, and I'm sure they are testing and developing other features, we aren't yet aware of that will make the experience even better. Hell they've just started, still hiring, and developing partnerships, but now have the money, to make something amazing happen. Having a solid position one way or the other based on early prototypes is folly.

 

That said, based on the none existent hype generated by the demo of DCS on the DK2, suggests that the DCS community might want to wait for the consumer version for a better chance of a decent experience. I should know more in the next month as I believe my DK2 might be in the first batch.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Chivas

[remon]

I am wondering why on earth they are not using flexible displays so they can get very nice/wide FoV and cover that peripheral vision fully, heck with 2 such screens they could cover the whole FoV? This tech is already available... why not even try to use it? Really, the only expensive bit in that VR should be the optics, and it should not be just a simple round lens. If they want to make this as good and usable as they want, then they need to make much much higher resolutions per eye and cover that whole FoV... anything less than that won't make it as good as they claim it will be.

 

 

It doesn't work like this. Put your eyes really close to your screen, or put your finger very close to your eyes, you won't be able to see anything because your eyes can't focus that close. You still need lenses. The only technology I think that would help with this, other than optics, is bionic eyes, and the most advanced things we have there are glass eyes.

[zahry]

What makes people think they haven't tried, or aren't eventually going to use curved displays? This is a long process that doesn't end with the first consumer version. This isn't a matter of just plugging in new displays and already developed smartphone parts. They wouldn't be hiring the best minds in the fledgling industry if it was that easy. Samsungs partnership will give the Oculus access to some of the best displays possible, initially limited by peoples computer systems that will drive these parts. Low persistence has been a huge breakthrough, and I'm sure they are testing and developing other features, we aren't yet aware of that will make the experience even better. Hell they've just started, still hiring, and developing partnerships, but now have the money, to make something amazing happen. Having a solid position one way or the other based on early prototypes is folly.

 

That said, based on the none existent hype generated by the demo of DCS on the DK2, suggests that the DCS community might want to wait for the consumer version for a better chance of a decent experience. I should know more in the next month as I believe my DK2 might be in the first batch.

 

The low persistence is just a placebo and fooling people around with marketing. The real problem is in the plastic optics that are generic and imperfections in human eye - it's not a common knowledge but one third of world population have some form of astigmatism and no single eye is perfect. The image you see through eyepieces/optics is not corrected properly and gently distorted to what you are use to see with your eyes naturally (the optical train is incredibly short for the level of magnification and even tiny mistake will show up severely amplified - cheap plastics are no material for high quality optics). Of course the brain will compensate but it causes eye strain, fatigue and together with lack of motion clues it's the leading source of nausea. Anybody who was in a simulator with very big fov and crooked warping will exactly know what I'm talking about. If you want to try it for yourself ask somebody with very mild correction glasses/astigmatism and wear it for an hour or two (btw: if somebody has frequent migraines and tiredness one very likely reason could be astigmatism).

 

All those things can be corercted and it is not exactly a rocket science - however the so called "experts" would have to do their homework first - but I have a feeling they know otherwise they wouldn't come up with such crap like the low persistence (fooling people with placebo is cheaper than solving the actual problem).

Edited July 2, 2014 by zahry

[KaspeR32]

The low persistence is just a placebo and fooling people around with marketing. The real problem is in the plastic optics that are generic and imperfections in human eye -

 

Seems we have THE expert here. It's funny to me that Oculus has people like John Carmack working on solutions for VR immersion, but you all of the sudden know more than him.

 

If you used DK1 for any amount of time, then tried the DK2, you would know low persistence actually matters. Maybe the experience isn't quite meeting your expectations, that's fine. But I've used both, and it blew my expectations out of the water. I think DCS will be a completely immersive experience when the CV1 hardware is used, and sitting here bashing Oculus for their "old" stereoscopic technique is just pointless.

[Maximus_G]

A curved display would probably require a more complex ocular construction - there has to be a uniform in-focus area across the FOV, which seems problematic if your ocular is not in the curve centerline.

There's also the parallax-barrier type technology, which would allow a very wide FOV, since it does not require a physical screen splitting into separate parts for the left and right eye zones.

Anyway, involving Samsung is a good idea which was in the air since the early development days. It just required an adequate amount of interest from such a big company.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Maximus_G

[Maximus_G]

There are some advantages too:

- affordable

- no extra room needed

- nice immersion - for some titles

The advantages are very nice for some people like me. In fact, they are so good that they're the only reason for me to play computer games any time again...

[zahry]

Seems we have THE expert here. It's funny to me that Oculus has people like John Carmack working on solutions for VR immersion, but you all of the sudden know more than him.

.

EVERY professional in the industry knows it - it's not exactly a secret. BTW: Carmack is a clever guy but in this field he is keen beginner who is learning the ropes - check his bio end experience Edited July 2, 2014 by zahry

[Scoggs]

Just to clear it up (in a few months lol) I will post my impresions of the DK2 in here and a picture through the lens in DCS when I get it. Will most likley be around the end of August because I pre-ordered it during E3.

 

Could people who do not have a DK2 ordered post what you would like to hear/know about it please? That way I can specifically look for and post answers when I get it.

 

Also i am sure someone ordered before I did could post impressions and answers before me.

 

Edit: I will also post a picture through the hud of the SU-25 for reference to the other image already posted. (Through the lens of the Rift obviously)

[Chivas]

The low persistence is just a placebo and fooling people around with marketing. The real problem is in the plastic optics that are generic and imperfections in human eye - it's not a common knowledge but one third of world population have some form of astigmatism and no single eye is perfect. The image you see through eyepieces/optics is not corrected properly and gently distorted to what you are use to see with your eyes naturally (the optical train is incredibly short for the level of magnification and even tiny mistake will show up severely amplified - cheap plastics are no material for high quality optics). Of course the brain will compensate but it causes eye strain, fatigue and together with lack of motion clues it's the leading source of nausea. Anybody who was in a simulator with very big fov and crooked warping will exactly know what I'm talking about. If you want to try it for yourself ask somebody with very mild correction glasses/astigmatism and wear it for an hour or two (btw: if somebody has frequent migraines and tiredness one very likely reason could be astigmatism).

 

All those things can be corercted and it is not exactly a rocket science - however the so called "experts" would have to do their homework first - but I have a feeling they know otherwise they wouldn't come up with such crap like the low persistence (fooling people with placebo is cheaper than solving the actual problem).

 

 

 

Low persistence is hardly a marketing trick. Its one of the major features along with low latency tracking that allows most people to enjoy the Rift with far less motion sickness. Thats a damn good trick, not matter how you want to downplay the technology.

 

Just because they are using one tech to solve a problem doesn't mean they aren't investigating other solutions. Thats what always goes on when trying to improve any technology.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Chivas

[zahry]

Just to clear it up (in a few months lol) I will post my impresions of the DK2 in here and a picture through the lens in DCS when I get it. Will most likley be around the end of August because I pre-ordered it during E3.

 

Could people who do not have a DK2 ordered post what you would like to hear/know about it please? That way I can specifically look for and post answers when I get it.

 

Also i am sure someone ordered before I did could post impressions and answers before me.

 

Edit: I will also post a picture through the hud of the SU-25 for reference to the other image already posted. (Through the lens of the Rift obviously)

That will be awesome. you can take screen shot anytime by pressing printscreen and then open any image processing software (i.e. photoshop) and press Ctrl+V.

[zahry]

Low persistence is hardly a marketing trick. Its one of the major features along with low latency tracking that allows most people to enjoy the Rift with far less motion sickness. Thats a damn good trick, not matter how you want to downplay the technology.

 

Just because they are using one tech to solve a problem doesn't mean they aren't investigating other solutions. Thats what always goes on when trying to improve any technology.

low latency tracking is a major thing but solutions are around for ages - what the rift was using must have been something from 90's and it was pointed out number of times with previous 3D goggles. Same the low latency problem - low latency monitors are standard for more than decade so going back to normal accepted standard is nothing revolutionary (it should be normal) - that was problem in 90's with LED displays and cheap phones - btw: that should have been one of the first thing they checked. Even amateurs who are into simulation bit seriously know about it and one of the first questions is "how is the latency" - but it's not related to sickenss but their reaction times. If rift team had no clue about it before they really neglected their homework. Anyway - the optical train and distorted image is far greater problem and the major corporate of sickness (yes - systems with bad latency and poor optic and image warping will make you sick bit faster but systems with poor optics and image warping will make you sick anyway - this problem is not problem isolated only to rift but it is common in any system with big FoV)

[Scoggs]

That will be awesome. you can take screen shot anytime by pressing printscreen and then open any image processing software (i.e. photoshop) and press Ctrl+V.

 

Or I could take a photo directly through the lens. The difference would be the optics. If I did what you are suggesting, it would look like any other OR youtube video. Taking a photo through the lens would be the best way to show what it looks like visually(actually slightly worse). That is if I can get my camera to focus. I have no idea how it will react(my camera) because this will be my first rift.(however not first exeperience since I have tried the HD prototype)

Edited July 3, 2014 by Scoggs
typo

[Chivas]

edit......I might be mistaken, I thought the original link said DK2, now I don't see DK2 mentioned.

 

DCS on the DK2

 

edit......I might be mistaken, I thought the original link said DK2, now I don't see DK2 mentioned.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Chivas

[Thick8]

The last I heard was that Lucky sold out to FB and John Carmack left. That was a few months ago. Anything new from FB about the Rift's development?

John

[zahry]

It has a 3 degrees of freedom sensor (orientation).

- Eventually I have replaced the vr920 tracking with trackir and later with freetrack and the tracking was working like a treat Edited July 4, 2014 by zahry

[zahry]

Or I could take a photo directly through the lens. The difference would be the optics. If I did what you are suggesting, it would look like any other OR youtube video. Taking a photo through the lens would be the best way to show what it looks like visually(actually slightly worse). That is if I can get my camera to focus. I have no idea how it will react(my camera) because this will be my first rift.(however not first exeperience since I have tried the HD prototype)

it's tricky but it's the best representation - that's for sure. iphones/androids can deal with it although the image is bit distorted due to camera having different focal length/FoV than eye

[zahry]

The last I heard was that Lucky sold out to FB and John Carmack left. That was a few months ago. Anything new from FB about the Rift's development?

John

I would say this will go to textbooks as one of the biggest cons and pyramid scams in a history of Kickstarter.

 

Summed up bluntly and without political correctness:

 

1- Palmer took idea from forums that was available for free

2- sold it on kickstarter

3- swindled hundreds of thousands people out of milions $ with false promises

4- sold out, pocketed the money and left without delivering what he got the money for

[Maximus_G]

it's tricky but it's the best representation - that's for sure. iphones/androids can deal with it although the image is bit distorted due to camera having different focal length/FoV than eye

 

A typical smartphone camera doesn't have such a wide FOV, so if the camera is placed properly, the image would be cropped a lot.

A small-diameter, wide angle lens should do the trick. A GoPro, probably. + the lens distortion correcton applied in an image editing suite. That would be the closest natural looking representation, imho.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Maximus_G

[SkateZilla]

DK2s are shipping and all of a sudden everyone's callin' it a Scam? wtf did I miss?

[cichlidfan]

The last I heard was that Lucky sold out to FB and John Carmack left. That was a few months ago. Anything new from FB about the Rift's development?

John

 

IIRC, Carmack left his position at ID to devote more time to Oculus last fall.

 

In March he had this to say about FB

 

Carmack went on to say that "I do have reason to believe they [Facebook] get the Big Picture as I see it, and will be a powerful force towards making it happen.

 

"You don't make a commitment like they just did on a whim."

 

Related, as of May 1.

 

Now that John Carmack works for Oculus, his former employer ZeniMax Media claims that it owns part of the intellectual property in the headset, and may sue Facebook and Oculus over those ideas in the near future.

Edited July 4, 2014 by cichlidfan