Announcing Lock On: Flaming Cliffs 3

[MaverickF22]

I don't know the details of the FBW, but it is supposed to optimize the CL/CD ratio.

 

Ok, but in order to optimize the CL/CD, which normally goes for higher airspeeds, the FBW would rather deflect the flaperons to a corresponding negative value for that airspeed...! From my knowledge in aerodynamics, there can be no positive deflection for any kind of known flaperons, that would increase your CL/CD ratio, but rather degrade it as the CD will always increase a lot more than the CL with alpha..., so the FBW can't increase the CL/CD ratio by lowering the flaperons..., but would most probably increase the ITR a lot for a moment before wasting a lot of airspeed, so it won't increase STR!

 

That's my opinion for it, and the maximum airspeed the Su-27 should settle at, in time, while having full AB and full aft stick should be way below 300km/h..., those flaperons, when fully lowered, create at least 50% more drag than the airbrake would do when fully deflected!

 

Thanks the reply!

[EtherealN]

Ok. I have no knowledge or experience. Where do I start?

 

1) You'll want to familiarize yourself with LUA scripting.

2) Get practiced in a 3D modeling program - 3dsMAX, Maya etcetera (3ds is standard for EDM I believe)

3) Work on your photoshop skills towards texturing

4) Find out the terrible pain that is unwrapping etcetera. :D

 

Once you're through that though, good to go. But I'd say: don't start a pit right away and try to learn through that. You want to start with smaller things to make sure you don't make terrible mistakes that crop up to make your life difficult later on.

[Exorcet]

Ok, but in order to optimize the CL/CD, which normally goes for higher airspeeds, the FBW would rather deflect the flaperons to a corresponding negative value for that airspeed...! From my knowledge in aerodynamics, there can be no positive deflection for any kind of known flaperons, that would increase your CL/CD ratio, but rather degrade it as the CD will always increase a lot more than the CL with alpha..., so the FBW can't increase the CL/CD ratio by lowering the flaperons..., but would most probably increase the ITR a lot for a moment before wasting a lot of airspeed, so it won't increase STR!

 

That's my opinion for it, and the maximum airspeed the Su-27 should settle at, in time, while having full AB and full aft stick should be way below 300km/h..., those flaperons, when fully lowered, create at least 50% more drag than the airbrake would do when fully deflected!

 

Thanks the reply!

 

At low speed, the wing will be nearing critical AoA, where lift tapers off, but drag keeps growing (or grows faster due to separation). At this point, lowering flaps could allow for lower AoA, taking you away from the peak in the CL curve, also, if the deflection of the flaps is small, there isn't much risk of separation, so the CD shouldn't grow by an extreme amount.

[159th_Viper]

 

There is much more to it that you would imagine with making the cockpit fully functional and FC3 only came out a couple weeks ago :)

 

For FC3 you do not need the cockpits to be clickable - too much work for too little reward. All you need to do is make them look as good as the F-15 pit and we'll be throwing sacks of money at the lucky Soul who managed to get it done and done properly :D

[Wolf One]

Really nice gauges, shame you can't press any of them, or do anything more with them. The "thing" is not bad looking either.

[MaverickF22]

At low speed, the wing will be nearing critical AoA, where lift tapers off, but drag keeps growing (or grows faster due to separation). At this point, lowering flaps could allow for lower AoA, taking you away from the peak in the CL curve, also, if the deflection of the flaps is small, there isn't much risk of separation, so the CD shouldn't grow by an extreme amount.

 

In our sim, the deflection of the flaps/flaperons isn't small at all, it is rather maximum when close to critical alpha, especially for the Su-27.

 

I agree with you with the idea of drag rise due to separation which starts developing a bit earlier (one or 2 degrees AoA) before CLmax at critical AoA..., from where you'll get a new CD vs AoA slope which may even double (but rarely) for some combinations of airfoils and geometries if you continue to increase alpha from that point..., but you should never get in that region for any other reason than doing a Cobra or entering a deep stall!

 

Now having the idea that the drag increased a lot at critical AoA without flaps and you have a partial flow separation..., lowering flaps/flaperons do indeed reattach part of the separated flow and also increase and not degrease the critical AoA..., but still, your drag will be even higher even if you'd reattach the hole separated flow, if you lower them enough (let's say 7-10 deg) because of the high pressure created underneath the flaps, so you will never see any CD vs AoA slope/curve degrease in the region of having the flaps lowered between takeoff and landing position..., and landing position is what Su-27 uses when it turns like that, so don't tell me it has less drag or the same as having them raised...!

 

There is a very small region where the flaps will delay the drag due to separation and will mostly maintain that drag amount, not make it lower, at angles lower than critical alpha (let's say 5 degrees lower) and this region won't exceed a flaps/flaperon deflection of more than 3-5 degrees, which it was what you've meant

so the CD shouldn't grow by an extreme amount.

, after which the flaps will only create more drag, even than the separation itself, if they are continuously lowered, so not only in those areas close to critical or supercritical alpha, but everywhere. A supercritical angle of attack occurs at the second peak in the CL vs alpha graph after the wing's stall (where the flow over the upper surface separates from the airfoil), this time the lower surface of the airfoil, which continued to increase lift after the stall (Pugachev's Cobra benefits from this), does also start to drop the lift force component that is perpendicular to the undisturbed airflow (usually above 45 deg alpha).

 

Here's a link with an example with both critical and supercritical alpha:

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0194.shtml

 

Although the idea of supercritical alpha has less to do with the subject, it's something good to know about and i hope everyone understands these principles, if they truly love the flight and it's always better to know more even if you're just a fan of sim playing...!

 

At this point, lowering flaps could allow for lower AoA.

 

You must say that you'll get the same CL, but at a lower AoA in order to reduce or restrain the CD by delaying the separation, as said before, otherwise you might want to say that you obtain a higher critical AoA and not lower, when you lower flaps/flaperons, because there are only some rare situations where, after lowering the flaps fully..., you'll get a sudden CL drop and consequently reduce the maximum AoA! If you maintain the initial critical AoA, from where lowering the flaps will reattach part of the flow and start to increase your AoA (also the critical) up to a level, if you continue to lower them beyond a critical point you'll get another separation, which is the case of the CL drop which lowers your maximum AoA, yet this is definitely not the case here...!

 

So the devs should try and take a closer look at the CD created by the flaps, not just for the Su-27 or Su-33, but also for the MIG-29 where again, a lowered flaps won't be felt almost at all in terms of drag increase, so it's no joke...! Take the F-16 for example (cause i had already given some examples with the DCSA-10C, P-51D and Su-25's)..., and i know it very well too. It settles somewhere at 200 knots at sea level with full AB and full aft stick (max allowed AoA of 24-26 deg) without flaperons being lowered! With fully lowered flaperons, it settles at around 145-150kts in the same conditions. So this huge difference can't come from anywhere else, other than the drag created by the flaperons!

 

 

Cheers,

Mav.

[Shaman]

I am a bit upset how our community of eastern pilots in general treated Eagle Dynamics team after FC3 release. However same type of gamers are ready to pay even more money for games that are not developed yet or for hardware, just to kick-start projects. If you consider the amount of your time spent in FC3 then costs of this module is insignificant to daily expenses (three trips with cab to office and back due to me being sick). I am really fed up with criticism and completely left reading these forums since FC3 release till now. Eagle Dynamics announced before about auto-updater and often patches, even with this amount of criticism just reached level of trolling. I have been supporting ED since 1996 and will not turn of them. Yes, there are some bugs and annoyances that just are there for like nearly a decade since LOCKON but what the hell, they have never been a complete show stopper, look how much fun we have had so far...

 

thx! ED

[Squid]

Go ED!

[HiJack]

I am a bit upset how our community of eastern pilots in general treated Eagle Dynamics team after FC3 release. However same type of gamers are ready to pay even more money for games that are not developed yet or for hardware, just to kick-start projects. If you consider the amount of your time spent in FC3 then costs of this module is insignificant to daily expenses (three trips with cab to office and back due to me being sick). I am really fed up with criticism and completely left reading these forums since FC3 release till now. Eagle Dynamics announced before about auto-updater and often patches, even with this amount of criticism just reached level of trolling. I have been supporting ED since 1996 and will not turn of them. Yes, there are some bugs and annoyances that just are there for like nearly a decade since LOCKON but what the hell, they have never been a complete show stopper, look how much fun we have had so far...

 

thx! ED

 

+1

 

Many ppl have disapointed me with their view on things here. Personally I think ED have done a good deal of development on the port from FC2 to FC3 but much is not visible to the naked eye, you need to use the SIM to find them. That said I would gladly pay 50 bucks every 6 months to get a DCS level jet fighter or two but for now FC3 shortens the wait with some really good fun :thumbup:

 

Jack

[Teknetinium]

+1

 

Many ppl have disapointed me with their view on things here. Personally I think ED have done a good deal of development on the port from FC2 to FC3 but much is not visible to the naked eye, you need to use the SIM to find them. That said I would gladly pay 50 bucks every 6 months to get a DCS level jet fighter or two but for now FC3 shortens the wait with some really good fun :thumbup:

 

Jack

 

 

Like the work on the missiles that is needed for next DCS fighter?

The issue is not about the money but rather then no info or work on Russian aircrafts.

I would give a lot more for DCS products that's for sure.

And I would pay even more for DCS Su-27SM.

 

I believe I would burst in happy tears if ED Confirmed their work on Su-27SM,

Like I did when I came across Flanker 2.0 back in 1999:cry_2:

Edited November 29, 2012 by Teknetinium

[Pilotasso]

Some of the aircrafts from the thrid parties modules do not rely on enough declassified documentation. I believe there is a market for similar lavel of realism say for Mig-29K or a Mig-29SMT. The interest must be there from 3rd parties from the CIS. I dont understand why there isnt any (besides The Mig-21 that is).

[mibo]

What is the difference of DCS World Lock On 3 with Lock on Platinum eg( Lock ON flaming Cliff 2) Hard copy?

Edited December 3, 2012 by mibo

[Madone]

What is the difference of DCS World Lock On 3 with Lock on Platinum eg( Lock ON flaming Cliff 2) Hard copy?

 

Flaming Cliffs 3 is now a DCS World module, it means you can fly the FC3's aircrafts in multiplayer with a guy playing Blackshark, A10C, P-51...

Edited December 12, 2012 by Madone

[Zhuravlik]

Is there any manual to FC3 to download and read?

 

Regards

[Lord_Pyro]

Your chosen installationpath ---> DCS World\Mods\aircrafts\Flaming Cliffs\Doc

[Zhuravlik]

Your chosen installationpath ---> DCS World\Mods\aircrafts\Flaming Cliffs\Doc

 

Thanks Lord_Pyro, but could someone upload the manual to mediafire, rapidshare or similar?

 

Thanks

 

Regards

Edited February 3, 2013 by Zhuravlik

[NineLine]

Thanks Lord_Pyro, but could someone upload the manual to mediafire, rapidshare or similar?

 

Thanks

 

Regards

 

Why would you do that when its on your computer if you purchased FC?

[schroedi]

download FC3, install it, copy the manual .pdf from the folder, then delete the Mods/Aircrafts/FC3 Folder. You dont need a key for that but you have to delete FC3 or your DCS won't work anymore.

[Zhuravlik]

Why would you do that when its on your computer if you purchased FC?

 

I purchased FC3 but did not want to install until exit the version 1.2.3, I thought I had to activate FC3 after install to see the manual.

 

 

download FC3, install it, copy the manual .pdf from the folder, then delete the Mods/Aircrafts/FC3 Folder. You dont need a key for that but you have to delete FC3 or your DCS won't work anymore.

 

Thanks schroedi !!!

 

Regards

[Lulac]

Well I must say this...

 

Since A-10C and P-51D showed up I mostly play those aircraft's because that's what should look like the real simulation in my opinion...but like big fan of Lock On from its beginning I also bought FC 3 one month ago but just today I try it in MP (though I don't ply it even in SP...) and I must said that I'm not satisfied, FC 3 is one big disappointment for me (I'm not one of those MiG/Sukhoi vs F-15...) but those "little" things like poor cockpit texture in A-10A...no RWR warnings...no 6 DOF...just that little things make me frustrated...and I don't have sympathy for any delay....

 

Now...I'm a little beat better! :music_whistling:

 

Cheers!

[rickthomas43]

Try to find a hard copy of Flaming cliffs 2 Manual.....

[GGTharos]

1) FC3 is in beta ... I'm sure you were aware.

2) New A-10A cockpit is coming.

 

Well I must say this...

 

Since A-10C and P-51D showed up I mostly play those aircraft's because that's what should look like the real simulation in my opinion...but like big fan of Lock On from its beginning I also bought FC 3 one month ago but just today I try it in MP (though I don't ply it even in SP...) and I must said that I'm not satisfied, FC 3 is one big disappointment for me (I'm not one of those MiG/Sukhoi vs F-15...) but those "little" things like poor cockpit texture in A-10A...no RWR warnings...no 6 DOF...just that little things make me frustrated...and I don't have sympathy for any delay....

 

Now...I'm a little beat better! :music_whistling:

 

Cheers!

[DieHard]

Try to find a hard copy of Flaming cliffs 2 Manual.....

 

My published versions I found brand new on http://www.Amazon.com/

from a book store in Wisconsin, USA fairly cheap.

 

That is where I found the metal spiral bound printed manual for the Black Shark and FC2.

 

There are other book / used books dealers out there online or try a local library's reference librarian to locate a dealer for you.

 

I did visit a local jobbing shop printing shop and sometime in the future will put the Warthog A-10C online text manual on a thumb drive and have them make me a similar book just for myself. I will have to check with ED/DCS to make sure I do not violate their copyright issues. The book can be done just like the other two published editions, just a matter of spending the cash.

Edited February 5, 2013 by DieHard

[schroedi]

I am using the FC1 manual for FC3 and the Su25T. Its 99% the same.

[Flаnker]

New Su-27 cockpit (WIP)

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1674801&postcount=87