Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted

Jesus Christ.

 

Lord Almighty.

 

I've just read two last pages and cringed.

 

Gentlemen, please don't wake up gruesome demons of the past - I still remember a clusterfeck-mammoth-of-a-thread on Ubi forums back in the days of original Il-2 about "killing Tiger tanks by ricochetting bullets into their bellies". Some of us who came to DCS from Il-2 and are old enough to remmember it as well, still consider it to be a traumatic experience :).

 

A thread started by quoting an honest account of a WWII pilot who said he did that... but given the fact that for both US and Brit pilots over Normandy everything with tracks was a "Tiger", plus the question of angled armour parameterers as shown above, plus confirmed blatant overclaiming about number of tanks in Normandy destroyed by airplanes, all these factors made the ricochetting theory highely improbable, at least in relation to main battle tanks. Let's leave it at that before creating another "Ubizoo-style" thread here as well :D (SitH would close it immediately anyway).

  • Like 1

i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.

  • Replies 2.1k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted
Jesus Christ.

 

Lord Almighty.

 

I've just read two last pages and cringed.

 

Gentlemen, please don't wake up gruesome demons of the past - I still remember a clusterfeck-mammoth-of-a-thread on Ubi forums back in the days of original Il-2 about "killing Tiger tanks by ricochetting bullets into their bellies". Some of us who came to DCS from Il-2 and are old enough to remmember it as well, still consider it to be a traumatic experience :).

 

A thread started by quoting an honest account of a WWII pilot who said he did that... but given the fact that for both US and Brit pilots over Normandy everything with tracks was a "Tiger", plus the question of angled armour parameterers as shown above, plus confirmed blatant overclaiming about number of tanks in Normandy destroyed by airplanes, all these factors made the ricochetting theory highely improbable, at least in relation to main battle tanks. Let's leave it at that before creating another "Ubizoo-style" thread here as well :D (SitH would close it immediately anyway).

Well, I saw the same discussion in WT, and on the DCS forums I saw a guy that claimed that .50cal bullet would bounce of human skin at 500m, so this no longer puts me in a state of shock:smilewink:

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies.

 

My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS.

My channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA

Posted
Tiger deck and belly armour is 25mm.

 

True. I misread that.

 

To get a belly shot on the Panther a very acute angle would be required increasing the thickness to 50mm or more. Never mind hitting the road would deform the bullet and velocity would decrease.

 

One thing you are forgetting is that with every hit, the proximity of the hit on the armor becomes increasingly compromised, and this is not even considering that as the war continued, armor quality continued to drop through limits in raw materials and "errors" in production, which were often very erratic and noticeable on the battlefield.

 

I'm not saying that an outright kill is likely. It's been awhile since I'd researched these things.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
Posted
Jesus Christ.

 

Lord Almighty.

 

I've just read two last pages and cringed.

 

Gentlemen, please don't wake up gruesome demons of the past - I still remember a clusterfeck-mammoth-of-a-thread on Ubi forums back in the days of original Il-2 about "killing Tiger tanks by ricochetting bullets into their bellies". Some of us who came to DCS from Il-2 and are old enough to remmember it as well, still consider it to be a traumatic experience :).

 

A thread started by quoting an honest account of a WWII pilot who said he did that... but given the fact that for both US and Brit pilots over Normandy everything with tracks was a "Tiger", plus the question of angled armour parameterers as shown above, plus confirmed blatant overclaiming about number of tanks in Normandy destroyed by airplanes, all these factors made the ricochetting theory highely improbable, at least in relation to main battle tanks. Let's leave it at that before creating another "Ubizoo-style" thread here as well :D (SitH would close it immediately anyway).

:lol: :lol: :lol: Quite true :thumbup:. And this isn't even the P-47 thread, but Spitfire… A Spitfire killing Tigers, yeah… :music_whistling:

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

Posted
:lol: :lol: :lol: Quite true :thumbup:. And this isn't even the P-47 thread, but Spitfire… A Spitfire killing Tigers, yeah… :music_whistling:

 

 

S!

 

Just going to leave these here.... :smilewink:

 

27-1.jpg

 

74-Squadron-Spitfire-IX-with-rockets-and-500-pounder.-1024x734.jpg

 

Joking obviously, however I have my fingers crossed that we will get rockets like 74 squadron had I need :D

Windows 10 Pro | ASUS RANGER VIII | i5 6600K @ 4.6GHz| MSI RTX 2060 SUPER | 32GB RAM | Corsair H100i | Corsair Carbide 540 | HP Reverb G2 | MFG crosswind Pedals | Custom Spitfire Cockpit

Project IX Cockpit

Posted
Just going to leave these here.... :smilewink:
:lol: :thumbup:. Thought about it, but people were talking about using guns, you know. Anyway rockets weren't a very accurate weapon, isn't it?

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

Posted

You don't always have to destroy a tank to take it out of the battle. 100% of tank commanders at that time had their head and shoulders exposed to effectively see around them. The presence of an air threat will reduce their effectiveness drastically, if only by forcing them to button up. Combined arms actions were the order of the day, with infantry supporting armour, air cover pinning down both reinforcements, and preventing effective fire and movement on the ground.

 

To destroy a Tiger just requires it to be outflanked. Even a Tiger Moth with a gun would be sufficient threat to enable that to happen. A few bursts of .303 is all it takes to make the tank commander duck and cover. And yes, 2TAF were in close contact with ground forces, so co-ordinating such an action was more than feasible. With the kind of air supremacy held by the allies before during and after D-Day, armour was always a sitting duck, even the heavy and medium tanks that were available to the German army. Ask any wartime tank commander.

Posted
So this one is used in the movie BoB, is it the correct version with paint and externals? I hope to build a 1:32 scale model.

attachment.php?attachmentid=150730&d=1477647343

[ATTACH]150730[/ATTACH]

 

My understanding is that the IX version was not yet available during the BOB. This is misleading. II certainly was.

Posted
:lol: :lol: :lol: Quite true :thumbup:. And this isn't even the P-47 thread, but Spitfire… A Spitfire killing Tigers, yeah… :music_whistling:

 

 

S!

 

Now Typhoon and Tempest - a different story. 4x20mm AP. + rockets.

 

Sure would like to see either one in DCS.

Posted (edited)
Both the Tiger I and Tiger II has only thin armor on their top-sides and belly.

 

If you could get a decent shot with a fairly high angle of attack you could penetrate the top armor with the .50 cal M2, let alone with a 20mm canon.

 

Also, if you caught a panzer on a road, you could ricochet bullets off the road onto the belly and get penetrations.

 

I'm not sure about the .303 rounds.

 

 

with a 50 cal. depending on the belt types ( in ww i think it was 23-26mm worth of penetration)... you might, barely.. as the tigers have 26mm of roof armor, any angled attack the effective thickness increases, so youd need need to dive straight down at pretty much 90 degrees to do so. also taking into consideration at what range? its shot at. a bullet looses its velocity over distance, so depending on the distnace the 50s might have even less effective penetration than what i listed.

 

I read the tiger 2 is thicker, at 40mm thick turret roof armor.

 

Side armor is 80-82mm thick.

 

303 are weaker than 50s so those certainly wont get through.

Edited by Kev2go

 

Build:

 

Windows 10 64 bit Pro

Case/Tower: Corsair Graphite 760tm ,Asus Strix Z790 Motherboard, Intel Core i7 12700k ,Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 64gb ram (3600 mhz) , (Asus strix oc edition) Nvidia RTX 3080 12gb , Evga g2 850 watt psu, Hardrives ; Samsung 970 EVo, , Samsung evo 860 pro 1 TB SSD, Samsung evo 850 pro 1TB SSD,  WD 1TB HDD

 

Posted
Now Typhoon and Tempest - a different story. 4x20mm AP. + rockets.

 

Sure would like to see either one in DCS.

Rockets, yes. Cannons? Same as on the Spitfire. Nothing special. You need a bit more punching power to do something to a heavy tank like the PzVI Tiger.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies.

 

My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS.

My channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA

Posted
Now Typhoon and Tempest - a different story. 4x20mm AP. + rockets.

 

Sure would like to see either one in DCS.

 

DCS level Tempest...drool. How i wish we could have it instead of Spit IX. Or them both.

CPU: Intel Core i7-2600k @3.40GHz | Motherboard: Asus P8P67-M | Memory: Kingston 8GB DDR3 | OS W10 | GPU: Sapphire R9 290x 8GBDDR5 | Monitor: Samsung Syncmaster 24" | Devices: Oculus Rift, MS FFB 2 joystick, Saitek X 52 Pro throttle, Saitek Pro pedals, Gametrix Jetseat

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

  • ED Team
Posted
Both the Tiger I and Tiger II has only thin armor on their top-sides and belly.

 

If you could get a decent shot with a fairly high angle of attack you could penetrate the top armor with the .50 cal M2, let alone with a 20mm canon.

 

Also, if you caught a panzer on a road, you could ricochet bullets off the road onto the belly and get penetrations.

 

I'm not sure about the .303 rounds.

 

What????

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

Posted
My understanding is that the IX version was not yet available during the BOB. This is misleading. II certainly was.

 

It was a MkIX that was used in making the film BoB. We hadn't seen "Back to the Future" .. .. ermmmm.... back then.

 

Of course with a wormhole and a DeLorean anything can happen :)

klem

56 RAF 'Firebirds'

ASUS ROG Strix Z390-F mobo, i7 8086A @ 5.0 GHz with Corsair H115i watercooling, Gigabyte 2080Ti GAMING OC 11Gb GPU , 32Gb DDR4 RAM, 500Gb and 256Gb SSD SATA III 6Gb/s + 2TB , Pimax 8k Plus VR, TM Warthog Throttle, TM F18 Grip on Virpil WarBRD base, Windows 10 Home 64bit

Posted
My understanding is that the IX version was not yet available during the BOB. This is misleading. II certainly was.

 

This aircraft was used in the MOVIE BoB. So it is a star, and it is the one we are getting from ED as far as this thread can confirm :D

Posted (edited)
What????

 

I know right?:smilewink:

 

Really though. Shooting a heavy tank with .50cals or 20mm is futile. Sure some damage like throwing off a track, damaging optics, hitting crew or throw their tools out of the tool box is plausible xD. Also it will rustle their jimmies and there are known cases of tank crews bailing out, but it is unlikely.

 

Shooting at tanks with MGs and 20mm cannons is waste of time and ammo.

 

I wouldn't even try it on the Box Panzer aka PzIV.

Edited by Solty

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]In 21st century there is only war and ponies.

 

My experience: Jane's attack squadron, IL2 for couple of years, War Thunder and DCS.

My channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyAXX9rAX_Sqdc0IKJuv6dA

Posted
It was a MkIX that was used in making the film BoB. We hadn't seen "Back to the Future" .. .. ermmmm.... back then.

 

Of course with a wormhole and a DeLorean anything can happen :)

 

Yeah, but at 88MPH, the Spitfire would probably be virtually uncontrollable?

Posted

Cannon rounds from any WW 2 fighter aircraft would hit the top armor at an angle much less than 90°; they would simply bounce off.

Bombs from a fighter? They would possibly get the Panzergrenadiers outside the tank but not the tank itself.

It takes a good attack aircraft like the JU-87 Stuka to bomb tanks with sufficient precision. The Stuka could dive almost vertically which gave it sufficient precision.

Or many bombers carpet-bombing the tank concentration like in Normandy.

LeCuvier

Windows 10 Pro 64Bit | i7-4790 CPU |16 GB RAM|SSD System Disk|SSD Gaming Disk| MSI GTX-1080 Gaming 8 GB| Acer XB270HU | TM Warthog HOTAS | VKB Gladiator Pro | MongoosT-50 | MFG Crosswind Pedals | TrackIR 5

Posted
Cannon rounds from any WW 2 fighter aircraft would hit the top armor at an angle much less than 90°; they would simply bounce off.

Bombs from a fighter? They would possibly get the Panzergrenadiers outside the tank but not the tank itself.

It takes a good attack aircraft like the JU-87 Stuka to bomb tanks with sufficient precision. The Stuka could dive almost vertically which gave it sufficient precision.

Or many bombers carpet-bombing the tank concentration like in Normandy.

 

I suggest you read up on the Cab Rank system employed by the Desert Air Force and subsequently used by the 2TAF in Normandy :D

 

The system was developed once the Allies had pretty much achieved air superiority and were therefore free to be used in such a system.

 

In summary it can be described as the precursor to close support aircraft.

Windows 10 Pro | ASUS RANGER VIII | i5 6600K @ 4.6GHz| MSI RTX 2060 SUPER | 32GB RAM | Corsair H100i | Corsair Carbide 540 | HP Reverb G2 | MFG crosswind Pedals | Custom Spitfire Cockpit

Project IX Cockpit

Posted

Germany develop Hs-129 and Ju-87 G2-G3 with early war experience, that big bombs like SC-250 only knock out at tank only with direct hit. Close Range hit's did not substantial damage to the tank.

Was nearly impossible with dive bomb Stukas to score a direct hit.

Success was given later also with Rockets and Cluster bombs.

Germany fire from HS-129 with his MK-103 long Barrel APCR 30 mm Tungsten Carbide Rounds to penetrate at normal combat Range enemy Tanks, with alloy hull to prevent initial shock and shatter the tungsten core and ricochet.

The I-Net says M2 amour Piercing without Tracer 500 m 19 mm Penetration, would be nearly impossible to penetrate Panther roof Top with 15 mm.

Once you have tasted Flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your Eyes turned Skyward.

 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

9./JG27

Posted

Useful or not, I'd love to see this British 3" rocket modelled, 'cause we're generally lacking in WWII A-G munitions department.

i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.

Posted
I suggest you read up on the Cab Rank system employed by the Desert Air Force and subsequently used by the 2TAF in Normandy :D

 

The system was developed once the Allies had pretty much achieved air superiority and were therefore free to be used in such a system.

 

In summary it can be described as the precursor to close support aircraft.

 

In fairness, tank kills were by rockets although not as high in number as folklore claims although broken tracks stopped them. However, the rockets and the cannons certainly tore up the other vehicles and often forced the army to abandon their vehicles/convoys which had pretty much the required effect as the softer troop and support vehicles were then wiped out.

klem

56 RAF 'Firebirds'

ASUS ROG Strix Z390-F mobo, i7 8086A @ 5.0 GHz with Corsair H115i watercooling, Gigabyte 2080Ti GAMING OC 11Gb GPU , 32Gb DDR4 RAM, 500Gb and 256Gb SSD SATA III 6Gb/s + 2TB , Pimax 8k Plus VR, TM Warthog Throttle, TM F18 Grip on Virpil WarBRD base, Windows 10 Home 64bit

Posted
Why shooting the tank when you can destroy the transport bringing its fuel and ammo?

that's a much smarter approach and we know it worked!

LeCuvier

Windows 10 Pro 64Bit | i7-4790 CPU |16 GB RAM|SSD System Disk|SSD Gaming Disk| MSI GTX-1080 Gaming 8 GB| Acer XB270HU | TM Warthog HOTAS | VKB Gladiator Pro | MongoosT-50 | MFG Crosswind Pedals | TrackIR 5

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...