Trim adjustment: incremental or continuous?

[Razor18]

It might be just me, but I have a feeling the (pitch at least) trim adjustment is rather incremental (with not small enough increments?), meaning no matter how short you try to tap the trim button up or down, it's not possible to really fine tune the setting to totally eliminate the climb or decend. When I try to stabilize for precontact behind the refueler aircraft, and speed is OK, I guess the aircraft should be flying with hands off the stick (pitch-wise). No matter how short I try to tap the trim to correct up or down, the aircraft is eighter climbig, or descending very, very slowly but enough to spoil the precontact position, like the neighboring trim positions would be a little bit "too far" from each other. Anyone knows if the trim movement is incremental, or it's analog, and Í should try to tap even quicker (shorter) for total level flight?

Edited January 25, 2014 by Razor18

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Try trimming when on the ground while watching the stick; you'll see it move. The faster you tap the less it will move.

 

From the sound of it, you'd benefit from adjusting your curves.

[Yurgon]

Anyone knows if the trim movement is incremental, or it's analog, and Í should try to tap even quicker (shorter) for total level flight?

 

I would describe it as "digital". Either there is a trim command towards a direction (let's say pitch up) or not. But there's no analog "20% pitch up trim" that I'm aware of.

 

The minimum trim does tend to be a bit too much, agreed.

 

I think I once read that someone solved the problem by adjusting one of the configuration files so that the key press duration was reduced. Search terms like "key press rate" or "key press length" might help you find an answer.

[Razor18]

The minimum trim does tend to be a bit too much, agreed.

 

 

Thanks Yurgon, "minimum trim movement" is a very good summary of my question, that I overcomplicated a bit. I'll look up "key press length" to find if I can have even finer trim movements.

 

Cheers

[Guest Izoul123]

I'd say it's close to 'a learned feeling/flow', more like anyone who has used an 'up down' on a hydraulic device. I've operated hydraulic items from simple things like a yard tractor, all the way up to a front end heavy loader, and they are all 'different/have there own feel'...almost hard to word. Flow is the best word I can use to describe it. It's not always the same 'speed/analogue' from experience depending on many factors.

 

You get a feel for it, and it's not really a 'setting', it's more of a FLOW to set it to what you want based on the condition at said time. And it varies from each device/hydraulic pressure/etc.

 

From what I've learned by talking to real life mil/civ pilots, they say each craft is different, but for the most part it's pretty much 'quick taps/dial' adjustments for trim.

 

Feel it out, I know that sounds odd.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Izoul123

[Razor18]

Hi,

 

no, it doesn't sound odd, but after about 20 years of playing most sims ever available, no matter how quick / short taps I'm trying, looks like the minimum trim movement is still a bit too large. Trying to stabilize behind the tanker without attempting to connect, just to check level flight, I'm always climbing or descending (even if it's as mentioned, very VERY slow), but a very quick tap in the needed directon ends up being too big of a correction. Maybe I will try using keyboard just to test if that could be even shorter / quicker of a keypress resulting in smaller correction.

[-Pv-]

I agree one tap of the trim is too much for tanking control. This has been my feeling since the beginning. A fine-course trim option would be helpful.

Fine for tanking, course for normal flight. I've been trying to tank for two years now and despite reading hundreds of advise posts and videos and over 100 hours trying, it's just

too hard with the current state of the controls and my $400 hotas.

 

-Pv-

Edited January 26, 2014 by -Pv-

[Yurgon]

I agree one tap of the trim is too much for tanking control. This has been my feeling since the beginning. A fine-course trim option would be helpful.

Fine for tanking, course for normal flight. I've been trying to tank for two years now and despite reading hundreds of advise posts and videos and over 100 hours trying, it's just

too hard with the current state of the controls and my $400 hotas.

 

I'm not sure, but I think real life pilots don't use trim while performing AAR (stabilizing behind the tanker, yes, but not during AAR).

 

Like I said, I agree that the minimum trim applied for a single tap of the corresponding key does feel a little too much. But I wouldn't say that this trim problem is a massive obstacle when it comes to AAR.

 

One piece of advice that always made sense to me was to trim nose down a bit before contact so that you have to apply a little bit of constant back-pressure on the stick. I tried that and it helped me, but nowadays I just trim to match the tanker as best I can because that requires less long-term stick-pressure during contact with the tanker, just small, tiny adjustments all the time.

[-Pv-]

Yup. I've read this advise and the one that always comes after it "practice practice practice" and there comes a point where it's all for nothing because for whatever reason I cannot do it. The fine control is just not there. Fortunately there is plenty to do in the sim without it. Also, the Balkans world is just not big enough to need it on a practical mission.

Wishing didn't have to disable the gun mode for tanking. That would be perfect.

-Pv-

[camsr]

I use the keyboard to trim so here is my experience...

 

Fine trimming is easier at higher altitude, although I think this is illusory because the thin air actually makes the control surfaces slower acting.

But it should be possible to needle in between, easier.

 

Almost all flight controls, when using the keyboard, are slewed so they respond in a linear way. I have noticed the ailerons will snap back to "default" position almost immediately, but moving them out, the movement follows a linear ramp like motion. This causes some jerkiness when releasing a key. I think it also upsets the attitude of the aircraft some.

 

The finest control I have been able to accomplish using keys has been very fine. But it is not easy, and I hate it :) Keyboard spring factor is the bottom line, yeah.

 

How does a flight stick's hat switch work? I have had one joystick and it clicked into activation, and I think holding it there would "repeat" just like a keyboard repeats. Maybe finer control could be had by not repeating the input on a hat switch, or repeating it at a slower rate.

 

I think what we need to know is the minimum possible change to control surfaces per input.

[Nealius]

One tap of trim is even too much for climbing. Trying to reduce speed 1kt per 1,000' is almost impossible in my experience. One tap of pitch-up trim and I loose too much speed. One tap pitch-down trim and I gain too much speed. It's like I have to adjust pitch by a tenth of a degree.

[-Pv-]

Keyboard or stick trim shouldn't matter. All the stick hatswitch does is send one tap at a time to the keyboard command. Holding the hatswitch is like holding the key down.

 

Flying formation is a complex balance of altitude, power, 3 axis stick control and trim. All three of these controls in the sim (throttle, aileron, elevator) are rather course (no matter how carefully I null and contour the stick. If nothing else but the trim is adjusted for finer control, air tanking would not be quite the frustration it is.

 

The problem primarily is how the trim is coded to provide too much pitch moment per increment.

 

If trim had a better control profile, obtaining a trim/power ratio would be easier.

-Pv-

[PFunk1606688187]

The problem primarily is how the trim is coded to provide too much pitch moment per increment.

 

If trim had a better control profile, obtaining a trim/power ratio would be easier.

-Pv-

 

This is particularly hard on people with poor quality sticks with bad centre play and sensitivity.

[ricktoberfest]

I have an old joystick with sticky center spring, but it is possible to AAR. Trim is just there I help you- not to fly the plane for you. In a real plane there are air currents etc that constantly move the aircraft. You must be constantly making small adjustments.

 

It's also important to note that trim is not just a pitch control. It reacts to throttle too. Losing altitude? Add throttle. Gaining altitude- reduce throttle. You actually trim for a speed, not an altitude or attitude. Even so, no amount of trimming will allow formation flying hands off either in reality or any decent sim.

[kk0425]

I have an old joystick with sticky center spring, but it is possible to AAR. Trim is just there I help you- not to fly the plane for you. In a real plane there are air currents etc that constantly move the aircraft. You must be constantly making small adjustments.

 

It's also important to note that trim is not just a pitch control. It reacts to throttle too. Losing altitude? Add throttle. Gaining altitude- reduce throttle. You actually trim for a speed, not an altitude or attitude. Even so, no amount of trimming will allow formation flying hands off either in reality or any decent sim.

 

+1

I've heard it said here many times. You're never in formation, just always trying to get into formation.

[Razor18]

Losing altitude? Add throttle. Gaining altitude - reduce throttle.

 

Sure you trim for speed, but if you want to end up receiving fuel from another aircraft flying in front of you, you don't have the luxury to choose your own speed, do you? :smilewink: That's why the trim response should be slower (if response is "analog") - or smaller for a single quick tap, if it happens "step-by-step", incrementally (kind of digital) to be able to finer trimming. I don't have any spring or sensor problem with my joystick, and have no problem flying hands off in FSX for instance, where you can adjust your trim response.

Edited January 28, 2014 by Razor18

[PFunk1606688187]

I have an old joystick with sticky center spring, but it is possible to AAR. Trim is just there I help you- not to fly the plane for you. In a real plane there are air currents etc that constantly move the aircraft. You must be constantly making small adjustments.

 

It's also important to note that trim is not just a pitch control. It reacts to throttle too. Losing altitude? Add throttle. Gaining altitude- reduce throttle. You actually trim for a speed, not an altitude or attitude. Even so, no amount of trimming will allow formation flying hands off either in reality or any decent sim.

 

Nobody said it wasn't possible, its just HARDER when you have inferior equipment and course digital trim input.

 

And the issue with say X52 sticks is that they actually have a lot of play in the middle before you get any input, so its not just about it being sticky its about it being harder to get fine control depending on your luck of the draw and your stick's age.

 

All this real life flying advice is legitimate, but it doesn't change any of the complexities of trying to compensate for software and hardware deficiencies of the sim experience. There's a reason TM Warthog users can get away with Zero curvature and X52 users often can't.

 

Sometimes its not about fundamental misunderstandings about the role of trim, and more about the fact that flying a real airplane is so much easier and more intuitive with respect to actual input control.

[Nealius]

Yep. I have an X52 and, while I can connect for refueling very easily, I am constantly falling off the boom because of that middle play. Even if the boom is showing in the green I will still get a disconnect.

[cichlidfan]

Sometimes its not about fundamental misunderstandings about the role of trim, and more about the fact that flying a real airplane is so much easier and more intuitive with respect to actual input control.

 

The lack of inner ear input is probably one of the biggest handicaps, IMHO.

[Razor18]

Yep. I have an X52 and, while I can connect for refueling very easily, I am constantly falling off the boom because of that middle play. Even if the boom is showing in the green I will still get a disconnect.

 

Silly question: did you try it after updating to 1.2.7? Because it adressed the known bug...

[Razor18]

The lack of inner ear input is probably one of the biggest handicaps, IMHO.

 

I think it's rahter the lack of input from your butt (seat of your pants)...

[Nealius]

Silly question: did you try it after updating to 1.2.7? Because it adressed the known bug...

 

Yes, this is with 1.2.7. The previous bug would disconnect you immediately on contact. I am able to take on fuel, but it still disconnects occasionally.

[BitMaster]

I think it's rahter the lack of input from your butt (seat of your pants)...

 

Both of you are equally right imho.

 

Same applies to any F1 or Rally game, the absence of felt G in ear and butt just make it many times harder than in RL.

 

I can't imagine riding wheelie down the street on my MTB without any of those 2.

Who ever would tell me a MTB-Sim could emulate that I'd call an idiot. You can't !

 

I can coast down the street in a wheelie with 1 Hand and 1 foot hanging loose... a thing

I trained myself to when I was a Teenager. I am now 44 and still got that "feeling" of what I need to do with very very small input on rear brakes and body movement to stay in control... no non-analog input could ever substitute that, not even a 16bit resolution. The steps in between are always missing and 1 miss means you fly off :)

 

..and yes, I also think the trim needs two buttons for each, 1 as it is and 1 that is x10 finer granulated..to somehow get closer to what we need with bad sticks and lack of butt/ear-o-meter

 

 

Happy Freestyling, AARing or whatever .... the Butt-O-Meter is what counts ( coupled with your ear for sure )

 

Bit

[Wolf Rider]

Sure you trim for speed, but if you want to end up receiving fuel from another aircraft flying in front of you, you don't have the luxury to choose your own speed, do you? :smilewink:

~

 

 

 

 

that's why you should trim for the speed (with the refuel flap open) before you get to the pump

 

 

split throttles and correct trim/ throttle adjust will put you right on the knot.

 

 

Contactor.cfg has a line for Trimmer Gain, set to 1.0 by default... knocking this down to 0.5 seems to make a difference - it might also just be a placebo effect.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Wolf Rider

[PFunk1606688187]

Contactor.cfg has a line for Trimmer Gain, set to 1.0 by default... knocking this down to 0.5 seems to make a difference - it might also just be a placebo effect.

 

The other entries in this file seem to point towards it perhaps being relevant to FFB?