My A10 music student came by this week.

Hey guys!!!

Had my A10 pilot (music) student show up this week. And we managed to chat a bit about the A10, so as usual I'll share what we talked about.

Now.....Like I have said before, I am only conveying to all of you what he shares with me. I am not in any way an A10 expert, even after talking to him many times about the A10. If I share something that any of you do not agree with, you are free to ask me to get with him or even disagree. But please be polite about it. I share this stuff because it's interesting and I know many of you would absolutely like to know what an actual A10 pilot thinks. I do this for the community.

The pilot in question is a Lt. Col. His name is Rick, and he just retired from DMAFB here in Tucson where he was an A10 instructor. The guy was 22 years flying the A10.

OK....we talked about weapons systems a bit. I asked him about in flight preparations. Things like DSMS, profiles, etc. I asked when pilots actually set all of this stuff up. As per usual, his answers floored me.

Weapons are preset (in almost all cases) before a pilot ever gets into the AC. It all goes back to that box behind the left shoulder in the cockpit. Pilots have a pre-programmed card that they insert into that box when they enter the AC. On the card are all of the settings that they'll need for the mission they are flying. Occasionally a pilot will have forgotten to program his card and in that case, the pilot says a few very nasty things to himself and sets it all up before he takes off. So while in flight, pilots do not really bother going from screen to screen setting up their weapons.

All of the other mission parameters are likewise programmed on to that card. The plane already has all of that info, so it does not need to download anything. And as I said before, A10's rarely go out with a specific target (like a convoy or whatever). It is very much a ground support plane and it loiters at 20,000 ft above ground operations waiting for markers or coordinates, and much less often, laser designations. Rick told me that he can't remember ever going out on a mission with a specific target as the objective.

OK...call me an idiot but I never really thought of this before. But.....The TGP doesn't ad any real range to the Maverick missile. The missile goes as far as is goes. The TGP just gives you the benefit of firing a bit earlier and identifying targets sooner to lock on to. I know that a lot of you A10 guys already know this but I had never thought about it like that. I suppose that I'm not the only egghead out there who didn't put 2 and two together. I don't fly the A10 as much as most of you do.

I had heard through the grapevine here in the forums that the DCS A10 was as accurate to the A10 as you could get in a sim, and that the only things missing were the classified weapons and systems. I did manage to ask Rick about this. He just laughed. And he made a lot of sense in his answer to me. This plane has been flying for over 40 years. It's systems are old tech. It would cost way to much to upgrade it to any modern classified systems. The government won't put that kind of investment into a plane that is so specific to one kind of mission. There isn't anything classified about the A10. This fact was confirmed to me by a younger A10 pilot that I had run into at the air show. He pretty much said the same thing.

A10's very rarely mark ground targets. The A10 is very much dependent on ground support to take out targets. From what Rick tells me, the plane pretty much stays well above ground threat level until they receive a smoke marker or coordinates from ground troops. So when there are 4, A10's loitering around a designated area or battle going on, on the ground, they are not up there looking for targets, they're waiting for orders, and all 4 of them get the orders at the same time. At that point, it's time to do some damage, get away, and come back again. They won't fly low enough to look around for stuff because the A10 isn't all that fast and they are an easy target. They just do what's given to them on the battlefield and stay out of the way.

I have to wonder why ED doesn't incorporate that box into the DCS A10. It could be set up in the ME by the pilot.

Very interesting, thank you! Nothing classified... ED pls give us the HMD!

Gesendet von meinem E6653 mit Tapatalk

 

I had heard through the grapevine here in the forums that the DCS A10 was as accurate to the A10 as you could get in a sim, and that the only things missing were the classified weapons and systems. I did manage to ask Rick about this. He just laughed. And he made a lot of sense in his answer to me. This plane has been flying for over 40 years. It's systems are old tech. It would cost way to much to upgrade it to any modern classified systems. The government won't put that kind of investment into a plane that is so specific to one kind of mission. There isn't anything classified about the A10.

Well the plane itself is 40 years old.

However the C upgrade started in 2005 and the sim was released in 2010. So I wouldn't be surprised if some of the stuff they installed was still classified 3-4 years after its first installation.

I have to wonder why ED doesn't incorporate that box into the DCS A10. It could be set up in the ME by the pilot.

I guess it sort of is - after all the flight plan and some weapon configurations are uploaded when you start the aircraft.

During Ollie's talk on TS....I asked about CMS and Manpads. At that time he mentioned that there were certain aspects of the CMS that were classified.

nothing classified suite upgrade next patch!

thx for the post.

I'm pretty sure any details about the ALQ-184 are classified; it isn't unique to the A-10C, though. Though his point illustrates that the A-10 is a great aircraft, currently in service, to have modeled in a sim with little restrictions on classified capabilities.

I'm away from my sim PC now, but is the "prepare mission" feature still available? I think it had some bugs, but the point of it was you could, IIRC, set up your DSMS profiles and so on....like a data cartridge from the mission editor.

I think that what we have in DCS is quite different to what real A-10 pilots are flying now. We are quite a few suites behind plus some other things (for instance, I think I heard that today there are different radios installed). I don't think that TGP is modelled in 100% due to some restrictions etc. But, having said that, we still have an incredible level of detail.

to get tasking in DCS means a scripted mission with lots of voice triggers.

All I can say about any classified systems on the A10. Two pilots, one just retiring, and one a young captain told me that there just isn't anything classified operating on the A10. Rick is coming by this morning once again for another lesson, I will ask him one more time. But he was adimate to the point of laughing that this plane just isn't that advanced. And the younger guy just kind of looked at me funny as if he were wondering why I ever would have thought that to begin with. I'm pretty convinced that the plane is completely declassified. And again.....It's only a fact in my reality. But I have a pretty strong basis for believing it.

Perhaps a more expansive definition for the word 'classified' would be helpful. NOFORN does not equal CLASSIFIED but it might still limit what ED was allowed to represent.

Perhaps a more expansive definition for the word 'classified' would be helpful. NOFORN does not equal CLASSIFIED but it might still limit what ED was allowed to represent.

Indeed. This has been discussed many times before - not much information is actually classified, but plenty of it is still protected in some way.

If anyone is still skeptical, just post a public link to to -34 on your Facebook page.

/don't do that

Zimmer,

Have you shown Rick the sim and got his impression of it ?

Zimmer,

 

Have you shown Rick the sim and got his impression of it ?

Yes, he has sat next to me and watched me fly the A10, Mustang, and F86. He is not inclined to fly it himself as he has told me. I completely understand his attitude abut it so I do not push it on him.

I have actually discussed the realism with several A10 pilots and all of them are very impressed with it as a whole. There are some things that they find to be lacking in the A10 but part of those issues are kind of more to do with the way we (as simmers) have learned to fly them. Procedures and the like. None of them care for the engine sounds. One of the pilots said that the DCS A10 sounds a lot more like a 727 than an A10 when its in flight.

My older pilot caused a lot of confusion when he explained the Pave Penny laser system that's on our version of the A10 but has been removed from the A10 since 2005 I believe. It's physically mounted to the DCS A10 and he was explaining to me that it seemed not be working. Some people on these forums jumped all over me about it (some people are entirely way too serious about DCS) but the error was just in the fact that he thought our version had it and it doesn't. The module itself is however still mounted to the plane.

The HUD isn't exactly to the A10 in reality also. What the real difference is I do not really know. I do know that the pilots I have talked to (Rick more than the others) have told me that things like the round pipper for the cannons tend to take up real estate on the screen so it's not favored by many pilots. They opt for the cross hair pipper. And again....some people came down on me for stating this. But all I can say is that I know these guys are A10 pilots, one an instructor, they have no reason whatsoever to tell me any tall tails about it. They all have said the same thing about it. Having never sat in the seat of an A10, all I can do is take their word on it, and I do.

There were some other things also but I don't remember all of them.

Rick (my student) was overly impressed with the Mustang. He has actually flown them and he flies with a Mustang pilot at air shows. He was pretty impressed with the startup procedure and told me that my not holding the oil pump for 30 secs or so was the only thing that I should have actually done that I didn't do. He said that everything else is spot on. He wasn't impressed with the ground handling and the sound was a little weird to him but everything else was good with him.

Rick left the AF a couple of weeks ago and is moving on to become a pilot for Delta Airlines. He owns his own plane (a Baron 58 ) and flies it pretty regularly. He flew A10's in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Kosovo. He is very familiar with the A and C versions obviously. I believe that he's flown a two seater also.

Oh.....he really had no input on the F86 as he's never really been around one.

Nice share..:thumbup: Thanks

Yes, he has sat next to me and watched me fly the A10, Mustang, and F86. He is not inclined to fly it himself as he has told me. I completely understand his attitude abut it so I do not push it on him.

I have actually discussed the realism with several A10 pilots and all of them are very impressed with it as a whole. There are some things that they find to be lacking in the A10 but part of those issues are kind of more to do with the way we (as simmers) have learned to fly them. Procedures and the like. None of them care for the engine sounds. One of the pilots said that the DCS A10 sounds a lot more like a 727 than an A10 when its in flight.

My older pilot caused a lot of confusion when he explained the Pave Penny laser system that's on our version of the A10 but has been removed from the A10 since 2005 I believe. It's physically mounted to the DCS A10 and he was explaining to me that it seemed not be working. Some people on these forums jumped all over me about it (some people are entirely way too serious about DCS) but the error was just in the fact that he thought our version had it and it doesn't. The module itself is however still mounted to the plane.

The HUD isn't exactly to the A10 in reality also. What the real difference is I do not really know. I do know that the pilots I have talked to (Rick more than the others) have told me that things like the round pipper for the cannons tend to take up real estate on the screen so it's not favored by many pilots. They opt for the cross hair pipper. And again....some people came down on me for stating this. But all I can say is that I know these guys are A10 pilots, one an instructor, they have no reason whatsoever to tell me any tall tails about it. They all have said the same thing about it. Having never sat in the seat of an A10, all I can do is take their word on it, and I do.

There were some other things also but I don't remember all of them.

Rick (my student) was overly impressed with the Mustang. He has actually flown them and he flies with a Mustang pilot at air shows. He was pretty impressed with the startup procedure and told me that my not holding the oil pump for 30 secs or so was the only thing that I should have actually done that I didn't do. He said that everything else is spot on. He wasn't impressed with the ground handling and the sound was a little weird to him but everything else was good with him.

Rick left the AF a couple of weeks ago and is moving on to become a pilot for Delta Airlines. He owns his own plane (a Baron 58 ) and flies it pretty regularly. He flew A10's in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Kosovo. He is very familiar with the A and C versions obviously. I believe that he's flown a two seater also.

Oh.....he really had no input on the F86 as he's never really been around one.

Very interesting! Thank you for sharing!

Very cool Thanks Zimmer!

I'm pretty sure the ED will never upgrade the A-10C to Suite 7-8..

Classified Systems

While it's more than just basic aircraft systems that seem to be discussed in this thread, there are plenty of items and systems that are not modeled as they can't be released to the public. In particular are the Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) and secure (encrypted) communications, sometimes referred to as KYs. The fact that they have these systems isn't classified but how they work and what frequencies/encryption keys quite certainly are and they frequently change so just getting knowledge of certain items probably wouldn't do anyone any good.

I am currently a Plane Captain (i.e. Crew Chief) on AV-8B Harriers and our jet has many of the same systems that the A-10C has. Hope this helps shed some light on what is left out.

Thank's a lot for sharing all this Zimmerdylan, keep going :)

About the Pave Penny system, the manual states that its functionality is not implemented, but being able to use all those buttons is confusing:

The Target Identification Set, Laser (TISL) system detects and tracks reflected laser energy. TISL does NOT emit any laser energy; it is a passive-only system. The TISL can be used to locate targets being laser designated by another asset such as another aircraft or ground forces. This panel is not functionally implemented in this simulation. With the A-10C, all laser spot detection is done with the targeting pod in LSS/LST modes.

Thank's a lot for sharing all this Zimmerdylan, keep going :)

 

About the Pave Penny system, the manual states that its functionality is not implemented, but being able to use all those buttons is confusing:

From what I know, the Pave Penny's primary functions have been replaced by the TGP. Either way, I don't use laser designation or any of that stuff really when I fly the A10.

I am much more into the old school planes. Although the A10 is a lot of fun, quite frankly, after a while it just isn't as challenging TO ME as the simple systems of the WWII or even the Korean era AC. Pushing buttons and looking at screens gets a little too routine for me.

I enjoy the A10 but not nearly as much as many of the other AC here.

I apologize but I have an odd question that may or may not have been answered...What is your music student learning to play? :music_whistling:

Great info. I think the biggest confusion is being caused by the definition of the word "classified". Nothing about the A-10 itself is classified...however, components installed and the capabilities they bring <might> be.

I'll leave you with this example. For the First 4 years of my career I flew on KC-135Q models refueling the SR-71 Blackbird. We carried a 2nd UHF radio on the "Q" specifically for rendezvous with the SR-71 called the COMMNAV/50. The radio was just like every other UHF radio but there was also a data link / modem that communicated with the SR-71 to provide range information used by the navigator during the rendezvous and that modem was classified as "SECRET". Whenever the modem was installed on the aircraft the "Aircraft" became "SECRET" and only mission essential personnel were allowed on board. Nothing about the 40 year old tanker was different except for the 75lb box installed in the comm rack but it was necessary to protect the Airplane commensurate with the highest level of classification present.

Sierra

Great thread. Great post. Keep em coming!

I apologize but I have an odd question that may or may not have been answered...What is your music student learning to play? :music_whistling:

 

Great info. I think the biggest confusion is being caused by the definition of the word "classified". Nothing about the A-10 itself is classified...however, components installed and the capabilities they bring <might> be.

 

I'll leave you with this example. For the First 4 years of my career I flew on KC-135Q models refueling the SR-71 Blackbird. We carried a 2nd UHF radio on the "Q" specifically for rendezvous with the SR-71 called the COMMNAV/50. The radio was just like every other UHF radio but there was also a data link / modem that communicated with the SR-71 to provide range information used by the navigator during the rendezvous and that modem was classified as "SECRET". Whenever the modem was installed on the aircraft the "Aircraft" became "SECRET" and only mission essential personnel were allowed on board. Nothing about the 40 year old tanker was different except for the 75lb box installed in the comm rack but it was necessary to protect the Airplane commensurate with the highest level of classification present.

 

Sierra

He is taking guitar lessons from me. James Taylor....stuff like that.

Very informative and interesting thread. Thanks Zimmer.